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2017 Public Sector Pay Deal

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  • 08-06-2017 9:05am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭


    New Agreement on the table after talks and the Unions appear happy. €800,000 in pay increases over 3 years. Comparable to better private sector increases and outsourcing of services to private industry removed from the agenda.
    Win, win for the Unions by the looks of things.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    Donal55 wrote: »
    New Agreement on the table after talks and the Unions appear happy. €800,000 in pay increases over 3 years. Comparable to better private sector increases and outsourcing of services to private industry removed from the agenda.
    Win, win for the Unions by the looks of things.

    Not a win at all. The extra hours is a massive issue for public servants. The government won big keeping them in place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    red ears wrote: »
    Not a win at all. The extra hours is a massive issue for public servants. The government won big keeping them in place.


    What was the point of the commission on ps pay and pensions..to show how much more they earn and how much better their pensions are and then they still get a payrise..This country is mental


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I've hived off the posts from the old 2013 thread and created a new one for the latest pay deal.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Am I right in thinking all public servants can opt out of CP hrs if they pay for it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Am I right in thinking all public servants can opt out of CP hrs if they pay for it?

    Heard that today alright. Apart from teachers highlighting this one specific issue I don't think it was high up the list on other sectors of public or civil servants.
    In fact apart from when the original clause was inserted almost 8 or 9 years ago, I don't recall having heard much discussion on this since at any union meeting or agm that I attended.

    Our main gripe appeared to be FEMPI, lack of recruitment and promotion and pension levies. All which appear to be getting addressed now.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    The Unions should refuse to attend talks until wages are restored.
    When that happens then talk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    The Unions should refuse to attend talks until wages are restored.
    When that happens then talk.

    The tax payer should stop paying tax until taxation is cut completely...You lads really dont know when you have it good


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    The hours don't bother me at all. I am in just before 9 and finish just after 5 and still work up a few flexi days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Can't see how this is being sold as a good deal and it's nowhere close to pay restoration.
    Be interesting to see how the ballots go but it wouldn't surprise me if it's rejected.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Given the Public Sector Pay Commission's conclusion that there was a basis for parties to enter into negotiations, it would have been irresponsible for the government to ignore this and probably would be more costly to deal with piecemeal pay demands from individual unions on groups of unions.

    On the face of it, it looks fairly reasonable. The unions can point to progress on some of their major issues such as unpaid hours and pay restoration, while the government can say it was in line with what they'd budgeted for a new public sector pay deal.


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    _Brian wrote: »
    Can't see how this is being sold as a good deal and it's nowhere close to pay restoration.
    Be interesting to see how the ballots go but it wouldn't surprise me if it's rejected.

    Yeah, I suppose this is big question. I think its unrealistic to expect to get everything back in one fell swoop and some things, namely pensions, will never be the same again. But there's still a lot of upset people out there, so it could be a hard sell.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Donal55 wrote: »
    Win, win for the Unions by the looks of things.

    Well you could just as easily put forward a win win for Government

    deal made - industrial peace
    increases limited to a series of 1% increases spread over three years
    Higher contirbutions to pensions kept in place
    ?660m worth of extra working hours kept in place


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    fliball123 wrote: »
    What was the point of the commission on ps pay and pensions..to show how much more they earn and how much better their pensions are and then they still get a payrise..This country is mental

    I don't think that is what the commission on ps pay and pensions concluded.

    It was reported as such by some of the more sensationalist newspaper articles, but when you looked at the detail, this wasn't apparent. Here is a link to the report:

    http://paycommission.gov.ie/publications/

    Firstly, the commission notes that the 2007 Benchmarking Report ascribed a differential of 12% between public sector and private sector pensions and recommended salaries were adjusted to take account of this. Secondly, the Commission did its own analysis. In Appendix E of their report, the Commission values private sector pensions at 10-11% of salary and public sector pensions at 23-25% of salary, a difference of 13-14%, an increase of 2%. However, since 2007, public sector employees have been paying a new pension levy at an average rate of 7%. Using both of those analyses, it is reasonable to conclude that the pension levy should be reduced to 2% to account for the increased cost of pensions in the public sector.

    Reading further on, Appendix F concludes that those at the top of the public sector are earning less than their private sector counterparts. In essence, those earning 100k or above in the public sector are earning less and paying more for their pensions than their private sector counterparts.

    That is an uncomfortable truth both for the public sector unions which are dominated by the lower-paid and also for the ill-informed private sector viewpoints seen in many of the newspapers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Yeah, I suppose this is big question. I think its unrealistic to expect to get everything back in one fell swoop and some things, namely pensions, will never be the same again. But there's still a lot of upset people out there, so it could be a hard sell.

    Pay cuts were first imposed in 2008, for many public servants they still won't be restored 13 years later in 2021. Hardly one fell swoop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Pay cuts were first imposed in 2008, for many public servants they still won't be restored 13 years later in 2021. Hardly one fell swoop.

    Yep. Full restoration should be a precondition to talks.
    This is only messing by the leadership.


  • Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭jamesthepeach


    So they have to wait til 2021 and they dont even get to keep up with inflation until then.
    Some restoration that will be. I think theyve been had. They have got nothing.
    If you index link what they were on before the cuts, they will come out far, far worse than they were.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's more than a bit much that the likes of Dublin Bus got 3.75% (a YEAR!) and Irish Rail are looking for the same, the other semi-states got nice increases thank you and little or no cuts in the bad times, but public servants will still be subject to 'emergency' measures in 2021 and probably beyond while still being expected to do what is illegal for a private sector employer to demand - work unpaid overtime.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭jamesthepeach


    But .... It's not even inflation. Sorry, can't get over that. Insulting.
    So glad im not public sector.
    All of the unions should act as one from now on.
    One out, all out. It's the only way for them.to get anywhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Will they vote for it?

    The larger unions might in sufficient numbers to see it rammed through against the wishes of other unions.

    Personally, if I was still in the PS I wouldn't vote for it - it seems what you gain on one hand (the pay increases) you lose with the other (increased pension contributions), so any income growth will be merely a token.

    Plus, are the Government bound by it? What's to stop them crying "emergency" and tossing the deal in the bin if it is politically expedient to do so? Why bind yourself to an agreement that the other party doesn't see themselves as being bound to?


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The government have reneged on the last two public sector deals they entered into.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I don't think that is what the commission on ps pay and pensions concluded.

    It was reported as such by some of the more sensationalist newspaper articles, but when you looked at the detail, this wasn't apparent. Here is a link to the report:

    http://paycommission.gov.ie/publications/

    Firstly, the commission notes that the 2007 Benchmarking Report ascribed a differential of 12% between public sector and private sector pensions and recommended salaries were adjusted to take account of this. Secondly, the Commission did its own analysis. In Appendix E of their report, the Commission values private sector pensions at 10-11% of salary and public sector pensions at 23-25% of salary, a difference of 13-14%, an increase of 2%. However, since 2007, public sector employees have been paying a new pension levy at an average rate of 7%. Using both of those analyses, it is reasonable to conclude that the pension levy should be reduced to 2% to account for the increased cost of pensions in the public sector.

    Reading further on, Appendix F concludes that those at the top of the public sector are earning less than their private sector counterparts. In essence, those earning 100k or above in the public sector are earning less and paying more for their pensions than their private sector counterparts.

    That is an uncomfortable truth both for the public sector unions which are dominated by the lower-paid and also for the ill-informed private sector viewpoints seen in many of the newspapers.

    Think what you like that is exactly what it concluded what I outlined and the omissions left out of it were glaring as in comparing the ps pension to private sector pensions , when there are very few if any these days where a private sector pension is of the same cost to what it costs us the general public to pay for public sector pensions and if there are any out there most if not all are been wound down. Not a dicky bird in there about that.

    Nothing in it with regard to a cost on job certainty and before anyone comes on here and says in the PS you can get sacked like anyone else in the private sector . I will point to a few examples just off the top of my head and current

    the following :

    our commissioner still in there despite the slush fund for the gards and other numerous scandals

    The lad working in the OCDE who shredded the docs for Fitzy in Anglo still working

    The medical team who killed Savita Halappanavar still working away

    The gard doing a porn shoot on a garda car

    The lad Kev Cardiff who misplaced 3 billion euros during the worst fincncial crash ever - promoted

    Bertie Ahearn the luckiest gambler ever seen in the galway races and who over seen the worst crash ever - still getting a rolls royce pension

    Yet the commission give no set price for job certainty? REALLY?

    and regardless of what the PS are paying they are not covering the cost of their pension and I find it deplorable that you have the gov on one side and the unions on the other giving pay rises that have a knock on effect for both current and future pensions and not dealing with issues like this as Turkeys dont vote for Xmas


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Think what you like that is exactly what it concluded what I outlined and the omissions left out of it were glaring as in comparing the ps pension to private sector pensions , when there are very few if any these days where a private sector pension is of the same cost to what it costs us the general public to pay for public sector pensions and if there are any out there most if not all are been wound down. Not a dicky bird in there about that.


    So now the pay commission is wrong, when it is pointed out to you that its conclusions don't agree with your conclusions. At least we have a better idea of what it said.


    fliball123 wrote: »


    Nothing in it with regard to a cost on job certainty and before anyone comes on here and says in the PS you can get sacked like anyone else in the private sector . I will point to a few examples just off the top of my head and current

    the following :

    our commissioner still in there despite the slush fund for the gards and other numerous scandals

    The lad working in the OCDE who shredded the docs for Fitzy in Anglo still working

    The medical team who killed Savita Halappanavar still working away

    The gard doing a porn shoot on a garda car

    The lad Kev Cardiff who misplaced 3 billion euros during the worst fincncial crash ever - promoted

    Bertie Ahearn the luckiest gambler ever seen in the galway races and who over seen the worst crash ever - still getting a rolls royce pension

    Yet the commission give no set price for job certainty? REALLY?

    and regardless of what the PS are paying they are not covering the cost of their pension and I find it deplorable that you have the gov on one side and the unions on the other giving pay rises that have a knock on effect for both current and future pensions and not dealing with issues like this as Turkeys dont vote for Xmas

    You are quite right, you can't get sacked in the public sector like you get sacked in the private sector. Even the packages given to the University of Limerick lads pale in comparison to the packages awarded to private sector executives who are sacked. Think Seanie Fitzpatrick and the like, think all the developers, think the CEOs who are fired. If the public sector adopted those practices, you might get a small number more fired, but the cost would be astronomical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Creol1


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Plus, are the Government bound by it? What's to stop them crying "emergency" and tossing the deal in the bin if it is politically expedient to do so?

    Absolutely. Nothing.

    That's one of the reasons unions are so important in the public sector. At least private-sector workers have legal protections against their employer. In the public sector, the employer is the one who makes the laws so they could do whatever they liked if it weren't for organised labour.
    fliball123 wrote: »
    Nothing in it with regard to a cost on job certainty and before anyone comes on here and says in the PS you can get sacked like anyone else in the private sector . I will point to a few examples just off the top of my head and current

    the following :

    our commissioner still in there despite the slush fund for the gards and other numerous scandals

    The lad working in the OCDE who shredded the docs for Fitzy in Anglo still working

    The medical team who killed Savita Halappanavar still working away

    The gard doing a porn shoot on a garda car

    The lad Kev Cardiff who misplaced 3 billion euros during the worst fincncial crash ever - promoted

    Bertie Ahearn the luckiest gambler ever seen in the galway races and who over seen the worst crash ever - still getting a rolls royce pension

    Yet the commission give no set price for job certainty? REALLY?

    In both public and private sectors, employees with more than a year's service have substantial legal protection against dismissal (actually, the main exemptions are public-sector entities such as the Army and the Gardaí).

    The main point regarding job security is not dismissal, but that there is no compulsory redundancies in the public service (excluding semi-states). However, this is due to the strength of the unions rather than the intrinsic nature of a public-service job, and governments use threats of compulsory redundancy to bully unions, as Brian Lenihan did during the crisis years and Richard Bruton has done more recently, so there is no guarantee against it.

    On the broader point of the deal, it is very poor. Public servants still working for free, pay discrimination and tiny, spread-out pay rises that could easily be wiped away by inflation and rents. But what more did unions expect from the talks? Did they think the Government would just give them everything they asked for? From looking at other workers, especially the Guards, it's clear you have to remind the Government what you're capable of if you want to be taken seriously.

    It will be very interesting to see how it goes in terms of being accepted by members. Impact and smaller civil service unions the CPSU and PSEU are in negotiations about amalgamating. If, as is likely, they take opposing stances on the deal, there could be ramifications for the merger.


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So they have to wait til 2021 and they dont even get to keep up with inflation until then.
    Some restoration that will be. I think theyve been had. They have got nothing.
    If you index link what they were on before the cuts, they will come out far, far worse than they were.

    Well does it need to be spelled out to them that they were on too much before the cuts ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Augeo wrote: »
    Well does it need to be spelled out to them that they were on too much before the cuts ?

    really?

    How come the likes of the HSE are struggling to fill so many positions if the salaries are so great?

    .....in relation to my own circumstances I'm on roughly what I was getting paid in the PS, but the 'perks,' bonus scheme, professional support etc that my current employer provides are just never going to be available in the PS.....so yes, certainly in my experience salaries are probably generous in my area of work but total remuneration in the PS is quite parsimonious.


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jawgap wrote: »
    really?

    How come the likes of the HSE are struggling to fill so many positions if the salaries are so great?.................

    HSE might be an outlier.
    Folks are queuing up to get into AGS for example :)
    Country is awash with, part time & potential teachers :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Creol1 wrote: »
    Absolutely. Nothing.

    That's one of the reasons unions are so important in the public sector. At least private-sector workers have legal protections against their employer. In the public sector, the employer is the one who makes the laws so they could do whatever they liked if it weren't for organised labour.



    In both public and private sectors, employees with more than a year's service have substantial legal protection against dismissal (actually, the main exemptions are public-sector entities such as the Army and the Gardaí).

    The main point regarding job security is not dismissal, but that there is no compulsory redundancies in the public service (excluding semi-states). However, this is due to the strength of the unions rather than the intrinsic nature of a public-service job, and governments use threats of compulsory redundancy to bully unions, as Brian Lenihan did during the crisis years and Richard Bruton has done more recently, so there is no guarantee against it.

    On the broader point of the deal, it is very poor. Public servants still working for free, pay discrimination and tiny, spread-out pay rises that could easily be wiped away by inflation and rents. But what more did unions expect from the talks? Did they think the Government would just give them everything they asked for? From looking at other workers, especially the Guards, it's clear you have to remind the Government what you're capable of if you want to be taken seriously.

    It will be very interesting to see how it goes in terms of being accepted by members. Impact and smaller civil service unions the CPSU and PSEU are in negotiations about amalgamating. If, as is likely, they take opposing stances on the deal, there could be ramifications for the merger.


    Really so the examples I outlined where someone was killed, where someone committed a crime and destroyed evidence, where someone lost 3 billion? and you think that this person would be still working in the private sector..listen there is blinkered and then there is you


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Jawgap wrote: »
    really?

    How come the likes of the HSE are struggling to fill so many positions if the salaries are so great?

    .....in relation to my own circumstances I'm on roughly what I was getting paid in the PS, but the 'perks,' bonus scheme, professional support etc that my current employer provides are just never going to be available in the PS.....so yes, certainly in my experience salaries are probably generous in my area of work but total remuneration in the PS is quite parsimonious.


    Because they face they face the same costbase and ridiculous tax regime in the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Augeo wrote: »
    HSE might be an outlier.

    Really? Do you have evidence to back it up?

    The Pay Commission (I know it is discredited because people don't like what it said when it was clearly explained to them) said that there are problems at senior management level across the public service.
    Augeo wrote: »
    Folks are queuing up to get into AGS for example :)

    Well obviously, given the lack of scandal, we have the top-most quality Gardai already for what we pay.

    Augeo wrote: »
    Country is awash with, part time & potential teachers :)

    Is that a good thing, that our teachers are only part-time and don't have enough to live on?


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  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Really? Do you have evidence to back it up?

    Evidence that they are struggling to hire people? No, I didn't claim they were though :)


    blanch152 wrote: »

    Well obviously, given the lack of scandal, we have the top-most quality Gardai already for what we pay.

    People are keen to join up .......... the wages are known.

    blanch152 wrote: »

    Is that a good thing, that our teachers are only part-time and don't have enough to live on?

    It's not a good thing but it shows that there are plenty folk choosing the profession.


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