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Why Ireland needs a domestic Intelligence organisation immediately
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We have a security establishment commensurate with the threat the country faces......no need for an expensive agency that will not add measurably to the safety of the country.....calling for one is like calling for jets to be bought so we can see of those darn Russkies......it'll look great but it's really just very expensive window dressing.0
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Jep Gambardella wrote: »Sure fire vote winner there.
Yeah, because the Christmas bonus is such an enormous electoral issue.0 -
Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »In a major crisis, the ARW would almost certainly be called in to take the lead role. Their firepower would be superior to the Gardai's 9mm MP-7 sub-machine guns. One of the outcomes of the Paris attacks was that the French realised the were outgunned by the 7.62mm AK-47 assault rifles versus 9mm pistols and 5.56 carbines. The 7.62 has more range, stopping power, and accuracy.
Frankly, the ARW would be fitter, better trained, more aggressive, better armed, and more experienced in urban combat fighting.
To the best of my knowledge, it was the ARW that shot Dessie O Hare in an ambush. They were also deployed, but not used, during the Mountjoy siege.
The ERU have and use the HK416 assault rifle. The ERU are one of the most experience counter terror units in Europe and the only event which may see the ARW deployed is if the ERU get stretched in terms of numbers. People don't realise how well trained the ERU are.0 -
The ERU have and use the HK416 assault rifle. The ERU are one of the most experience counter terror units in Europe and the only event which may see the ARW deployed is if the ERU get stretched in terms of numbers. People don't realise how well trained the ERU are.
Oh I agree they are well trained, I won't argue there. But the ERU would not be in a position to assault something like an oil rig, ferry, or airplane. That would be ARW territory.
Also, the HK416 is 5.56 calibre, if I'm not mistaken. Still outgunned and out-ranged by a 7.62. The theory behind a 5.56 round is that it, overall, it will wound a suspect but is less likely to kill him. This would require fellow soldiers to remove him from the combat scene, tying them up logistically. It was designed as a NATO tactic for a cold war scenario, not for stopping modern terrorists hopped up on drugs.
Jeez I'm getting very nerdy here altogether...0 -
Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »Oh I agree they are well trained, I won't argue there. But the ERU would not be in a position to assault something like an oil rig, ferry, or airplane. That would be ARW territory.
Also, the HK416 is 5.56 calibre, if I'm not mistaken. Still outgunned and out-ranged by a 7.62. The theory behind a 5.56 round is that it, overall, it will wound a suspect but is less likely to kill him. This would require fellow soldiers to remove him from the combat scene, tying them up logistically. It was designed as a NATO tactic for a cold war scenario, not for stopping modern terrorists hopped up on drugs.
Jeez I'm getting very nerdy here altogether...
Our guys now have access to some incredible firepower. The 416 and MP7 are two of the most highly regarded firearms in use in military/law enforcement scenarios. The HK416 is an incredible piece of equipment, that can be adapted to use a 7.62 round if required.
5.56 is still a preference in these scenarios, if not even still 9mm for many, is for the control it allows when it comes to civilians and the environment.
"Terrorists" are obviously just looking to cause carnage and damage. Police and military need to think of things like civilians and the environment. Using a 7.62 round in this scenario, by police, would be wreckless as there is poor control over the rounds penetration (round going through a target, injuring another, or a missed shot penetrating the environment causing injury)
Also worth noting where 5.56 came from. The US had a massive influencing decision in terms of the NATO chosen round. The benefit of reduced recoil, better control and the lighter round meaning more ammunition could be carried, was the reason behind the choice of 5.56. But mostly the US having the sway in the decision, as all their manufacturers were providing 5.56 to market and the US army. Most Europeans nations and firearm manufacturers were operating with 7.62
There has been a new calibre of round in discussion for some time now, as the Iraq conflict has shown the 5.56 becoming problematic in dealing with new warefare scenarios, along with domestic environments mind you, where 5.56 rounds can't penetrate the engine block of an oncoming vehicle, say packed with explosives.
Again, us being nerdy, but I don't think firearms are a potential cause. There has been plenty of demonstrations and investigation say for example before the new firearm response unit in the guards gave the go ahead to MP7's, then the arrival of 416's. Sure replacement for the Irish Armies AUG has been on the cards for years. They've had samplings of everything from HK416's to SCARs.
And our specialist firearm units have pretty much everything at their disposal they need, and if not they get it, so I'm told.0 -
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Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »In a major crisis, the ARW would almost certainly be called in to take the lead role. Their firepower would be superior to the Gardai's 9mm MP-7 sub-machine guns. One of the outcomes of the Paris attacks was that the French realised the were outgunned by the 7.62mm AK-47 assault rifles versus 9mm pistols and 5.56 carbines. The 7.62 has more range, stopping power, and accuracy.
Frankly, the ARW would be fitter, better trained, more aggressive, better armed, and more experienced in urban combat fighting.
To the best of my knowledge, it was the ARW that shot Dessie O Hare in an ambush. They were also deployed, but not used, during the Mountjoy siege.
The MP7 is not a 9mm sub. It uses the HK 4.6x30mm cartridge. This was designed for better penetration of body Armour.
The ARW use the steyr and hk416 as their main ARs which are both 5.56mm
They use HK417 which is 7.62 but I believe this is used as a DMR.0 -
The MP7 is not a 9mm sub. It uses the HK 4.6x30mm cartridge. This was designed for better penetration of body Armour.
The ARW use the steyr and hk416 as their main ARs which are both 5.56mm
They use HK417 which is 7.62 but I believe this is used as a DMR.
The 41X platform is modular so can shift through a number of configurations quickly, similar to the SCAR. One of the reasons it was picked I'd imagine in the ever changing urban environment and landscape.0 -
And just where have you been ?
People are sitting here waiting on you .0 -
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Frankly I just think I need to be more intelligent.
Imma tryin! :P 0 -
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Exactly. We're one of the few countries in the world that have had a long standing terrorism group based within our shores, even if it's primarily in the North. Why would people think we, of all countries, wouldn't have some sort of effective intelligence unit?
Why the fook do people drag this up everytime.
The threat posed by Republican or Loyalist dissidents and paramilitaries is very different to the current threat from jihadists.
Ehh Northern Ireland is not our state, they have a different police force, different military, different intelligence services.Mrs OBumble wrote: »Ireland has more experience with domestic terrorists that most countries.
And again this is always trotted out.
Would you consider a Morrocan, a Libyan, an Uzbek, a Tunisian who often live in an isolated immigrant community to be a domestic terrorist ?
Why the fook do people equate our home grown indigenous, non isolated culturally similar terrorists to those who are totally isolated and from a vastly different culture that most of our security forces have absolutely nothing in common with.con___manx1 wrote: »We have no intelligence agency but ireland has more experience dealing with terrorists than any other country in Europe.
Ohh FFS can we please put this self congratulatory cr** to bed once and for all.
Spain and the UK would have had far more experience dealing with terrorists because they were continously under threat.
Security forces and military personnel were being killed almost daily.
Judiciary, prison officers and politicians were all targets and were killed.
Ireland wasn't really always under the same threat level.
Yes we had the odd kidnapping, the odd horsenapping, the odd assassination, the odd bank job and the bombings in Dublin and Monaghan.
But the most successful terrorist organisation in these islands, and indeed in Europe, for the most part were under orders to leave us alone.
How many terrorist attacks did we have in the Republic over the 30 odd years of the troubles in comparison to attacks in Britain, Spain over that time frame.
BTW Northern Ireland is not part of our jurisdiction and thus it was UK security services and intelligence services at play there.
And just see how exposed the UK and indeed Spain have been under the wave of islamist terrorism post 2000.
Also another elephant in the room that nobody has appeared to address is the fact we faced our biggest security and terrorist threats in the 70s, 80s and 90s.
How many of the Garda and Army that were around then are still operating?
Garda admit that they have lost a huge amount of valued officers over the years and that level of knowledge has often not been replaced.
An ex army officer I know that faced some of the worst of the PIRA threat has retired for nearly 27 years.
But yeah everything is grand. :rolleyes:0 -
jmayo wrote:Why the fook do people drag this up everytime. The threat posed by Republican or Loyalist dissidents and paramilitaries is very different to the current threat from jihadists.
Did you read the post? It was in response to someone saying we had no agency at all, which is blatently untrue. I have absolutely no idea how effective it is or isn't for the current threat and I won't pretend to.0 -
Yep. End thread.jmayo wrote:Why the fook do people drag this up everytime. The threat posed by Republican or Loyalist dissidents and paramilitaries is very different to the current threat from jihadists.
Did you read the post? It was in response to someone saying we had no agency at all, which is blatently untrue. I have absolutely no idea how effective it is or isn't for the current threat and I won't pretend to.0 -
Our guys now have access to some incredible firepower. The 416 and MP7 are two of the most highly regarded firearms in use in military/law enforcement scenarios. The HK416 is an incredible piece of equipment, that can be adapted to use a 7.62 round if required.
5.56 is still a preference in these scenarios, if not even still 9mm for many, is for the control it allows when it comes to civilians and the environment.
"Terrorists" are obviously just looking to cause carnage and damage. Police and military need to think of things like civilians and the environment. Using a 7.62 round in this scenario, by police, would be wreckless as there is poor control over the rounds penetration (round going through a target, injuring another, or a missed shot penetrating the environment causing injury)
Also worth noting where 5.56 came from. The US had a massive influencing decision in terms of the NATO chosen round. The benefit of reduced recoil, better control and the lighter round meaning more ammunition could be carried, was the reason behind the choice of 5.56. But mostly the US having the sway in the decision, as all their manufacturers were providing 5.56 to market and the US army. Most Europeans nations and firearm manufacturers were operating with 7.62
There has been a new calibre of round in discussion for some time now, as the Iraq conflict has shown the 5.56 becoming problematic in dealing with new warefare scenarios, along with domestic environments mind you, where 5.56 rounds can't penetrate the engine block of an oncoming vehicle, say packed with explosives.
Again, us being nerdy, but I don't think firearms are a potential cause. There has been plenty of demonstrations and investigation say for example before the new firearm response unit in the guards gave the go ahead to MP7's, then the arrival of 416's. Sure replacement for the Irish Armies AUG has been on the cards for years. They've had samplings of everything from HK416's to SCARs.
And our specialist firearm units have pretty much everything at their disposal they need, and if not they get it, so I'm told.
Good points on the 5.56 vs 7.62, and hopefully there will never be the need to bring in the bigger 7.62 weapons in an Irish environment. Touch wood.
Yes over-penetration is a serious problem with the larger calibres, in fact I understand that even with 9mm weapons for air marshalls etc, there is a recommendation to use 'frangible' rounds which are made of compressed copper powder, so that there is less chance of collateral damage.The MP7 is not a 9mm sub. It uses the HK 4.6x30mm cartridge. This was designed for better penetration of body Armour.
The ARW use the steyr and hk416 as their main ARs which are both 5.56mm
They use HK417 which is 7.62 but I believe this is used as a DMR.
Damn you're right on the MP7, it is indeed 4.6 x30mm. I must have been mentally associating with the phased out Uzi, which was 9mm. Wasn't there talk of bringing back the FN rifles too as a DMR, or was that for regular army overall?0 -
While we have entities akin to traditional intelligence agencies we don't have the expansive ones that tend to come to mind for most people. But there are logistical reasons for this,
(1) most intelligence agencies rely on SIGADs located around the world that can vary from on the ground installations to satellites. We're not exactly a nation with the clout to get these going. So we essentially outsource this to the UK who at least in the case of Islamic extremism share the same concerns we do, it is as well for them to monitor jihadis here than it is there.
(2) resources is a massive concern here. Running a fully-functional intelligence agency is a multi-billion dollar enterprise. It involves investment in exceptionally expensive equipment.
(3) if we do go ahead with it then training may take a few years. Just to note.
Now, I am not saying we shouldn't have one, but I can certainly understand why we do not. Our proximity with one of the Five Eyes nations means we get intel that likely exceeds nations with superior capabilities, but worse allies. The cost is also likely to make a noticeable dent in our economy as these tend to scale fast.
I've been thinking about this in the run up to the election, and I'm starting to get worried. Now, there's a 50/50 chance that Corbyn will win. This would be a nightmare scenario, both for the UK and Ireland. Corbyn has repeatedly stated that he would shut down the intelligence services, and I've no reason to doubt he would do this. The fifth column would be well and truly installed, and then the dismantling of the Capitalist system would begin. So in one fell swoop we would have lost our main eyes in the 5 eyes system.
I would imagine the USA would pick up the slack for us after some emergency diplomatic negotiations, but that wouldn't be a patch on the UK's experience and working local knowledge and contacts on the ground. The USA input would most likely be in the form of SIGINT and online monitoring, but very little in the way of HUMINT 'boots on the ground' intel. It would take years or decades to cultivate those contacts again. Also, a Yank operator would probably stick out like a sore thumb in the Muslim majority communities of Bradford, Leicester, and Tower Hamlets etc. If they can remember to drive on the left, that is.
The EU would probably step up and share more intel with us, but again, the EU has no centralised Intelligence Agency. (More on that here.)
Instead, they rely on co-operation from the individual member states Intelligence Agencies to provide accurate, real time monitoring and tracking. There is of course the European Union Intelligence and Situation Centre, but I don't know enough about them to give an accurate assessment of their capabilities and operational strengths. Maybe they have the situation under relative control, maybe they don't. I would suggest that relying on multiple agencies to work in harmony tends to reveal factional mentalities, localised agendas, and sometimes bitterness or rivalries between some organisations. And they won't all be willing to share their full secrets on who they are running, or operations that might be taking place off the books. They all have their own motives and budget concerns at the end of the day.
So that's what I've been mulling over this morning. Also, I stated on another thread that in the event of Corbyn winning, I strongly suspect the UK military would active a sort of doomsday contingency plan and initiate a coup. So there's also that element of things, which would probably lead to trouble in the UK for some time, and possible disruption of intelligence gathering. Resources would have to be deployed to deal with civil disobedience in this admittedly extreme scenario. This would be an extraordinary development, but not as remote as one might think.
On the other hand, May might sweep the board again and I can come back out my bunker. :pac:0 -
Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »Now, there's a 50/50 chance that Corbyn will win.
There really isn't. The Tories' lead has shrunk but it's still a double-digit lead and they're going to gain seats, the question is simply by how much.0 -
"“Today, I am announcing that Labour will also increase staffing levels at the security and intelligence agencies – GCHQ, SIS and MI5 – in order to better ensure our collective safety.”Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »Corbyn has repeatedly stated that he would shut down the intelligence services, and I've no reason to doubt he would do this.
— Jeremy Corbyn, May 2017
http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/corbyn-pledges-increased-staffing-levels-at-security-and-intelligence-agencies-11364183730367
Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »Also, I stated on another thread that in the event of Corbyn winning, I strongly suspect the UK military would active a sort of doomsday contingency plan and initiate a coup.
Get a hold of yourself.0 -
16 years after September 2001, 911 New York world trade center attacks?. well done Ireland you are 16 years to late but that is a Irish thing better latter than ever .:(Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »It might surprise you to know that Ireland is the only country in the EU that does not have an Intelligence organisation. Instead, we rely almost exclusively on the UK to provide accurate intelligence to us. As we have seen recently, UK intelligence is completely overwhelmed by the number of Islamic extremists. According to MI5, there are at least 23,000 terror suspects in the UK, and 400 active terror plots being investigated
There is a concept in security called 'Defence in Depth'. This means that you don't depend on one single protocol to keep you safe. This creates a bottleneck point of failure, meaning that if one security breach takes place, it will be catastrophic as there is no safety net. It's like having a house, but only locking the front gate instead of the doors. Once the front gate is breached, the attacker is in. So to mitigate this, you lock the gates, the doors and windows, and install an intruder alarm. Also, a big nasty dog helps too.
We are going to get hit. The Irish public need to get this through their skulls.
It's a matter of when, not if. There's no point in pretending our cuddly harmless leprauchan Paddy image is going to save us. It isn't. Some day in the near future, we will be looking on in disbelief as throats are cut or crowds of people are mown down in Dublin or elsewhere.
The only monitoring that takes place in Ireland is the Gardai Special Branch, and to a lesser extent, the G2 Army Intelligence, which is a relatively small organisation. Now, they are already up to their eyeballs with the domestic terrorist/criminal organisations, such as the RIRA, CIRA, Hutch/Kinehan bomb attacks etc. At least with these organisations, they are speaking English. Also, they can be infiltrated with informers.
It's not so easy with the Islamic threats in Ireland. The warning signs are starting to flash. We've had activity down in Waterford recently, and there are a number of suspects who are being investigated for having links to the recent Manchester bombing. We've already had a number of Irish Islamists killed in Iraq and Syria. We got lucky that Khalid Kelly blew himself up in Syria, instead of on a bus in Dublin at rush hour.
ISIS have already declared Ireland a target for operations. The 'yerrah it'll be grand attitude' isn't going to do anymore.
You can read the signs with your eyes closed.
We need to maximise our defences immediately, and do everything we can to minimise our threat profile. There is already suspicious activity taking place in the Clonskeagh mosque/Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland (ICCI), who have links to the radical Muslim Brotherhood. It should also be noted that the imam of the Clonskeagh Mosque/ICCI is Hussein Halawa, who just happens to be the Father of Ibrahim Halawa. Ibrahim is Ireland's current Islamist cause célèbre who is under arrest and awaiting trial in Egypt. He and his sisters just happened to go to Egypt and he found himself on stage somehow calling for violence against the Egyptian government.
Many liberal Irish websites, most notably the Journal.ie, have been consistently regurgitating propaganda and outright lies that support the families claims. Some would say collusion, and even outright collaboration: https://www.thejournal.ie/fatima-halawa-cairo-3186989-Jan2017/
When we are attacked, remember what side these 'journalists' were on. They are playing their part in subverting Irish society, make no mistake about that. Facts are being blatantly omitted when reporting on these stories.
Adding to this, even the imam of the moderate Blanchardstown mosque is telling anyone who will listen that radicalisation is now taking place in Irish mosques. You can guess which mosque that might be:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/imams-split-over-fears-irish-muslims-are-being-radicalised-in-mosques-34222983.html
How many clues do you need before the penny drops? Or will you wait until there are body parts on Irish streets before it dawns on you that this is what reality is in the West now? It isn't going away, and giving out extra cuddles and being nice on Facebook doesn't amount to jack sh1t.
What troubles me most though, is that in spite all of these warnings, all the obvious signs, and the repeated calls for action, nothing will be done until something terrible has happened. We don't take proactive measures in Ireland, we only react.
We've been lucky so far; they only need to be lucky once.0 -
There really isn't. The Tories' lead has shrunk but it's still a double-digit lead and they're going to gain seats, the question is simply by how much.
I'm leaning towards this outcome, but you'd never know. Polls are irrelevant after Trump and Brexit.Joey Jo-Jo Junior wrote: »"“Today, I am announcing that Labour will also increase staffing levels at the security and intelligence agencies – GCHQ, SIS and MI5 – in order to better ensure our collective safety.”
— Jeremy Corbyn, May 2017
http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/corbyn-pledges-increased-staffing-levels-at-security-and-intelligence-agencies-11364183730367
Get a hold of yourself.
Now he's contradicting himself. If he did increase Security and Intelligence, it would very much be into a KGB state totalitarian organisation. Maybe stuff it with a few of his IRA and HAMAS buddies, with a few jackboot union thugs to oversee the whole affair.
As for my coup theory, I suggest you read up on some history. The UK were considering a military coup against Harold Wilson in 1974: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1
And France had a secret emergency plan in the event of Marine Le Pen being elected just a few weeks ago:The magazine said the plan was aimed mainly at preventing serious civil unrest and “freezing” the political situation by convening parliament in emergency session and maintaining the outgoing prime minister in office.
Police and intelligence services were particularly concerned by the threat of “extreme violence” from mainly far left protesters in the event of a Le Pen victory as the country would have found itself “on the brink of chaos”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/18/secret-plans-protect-le-pen-french-republic-emerge
I suggest you 'get a grip' yourself on the reality of political and military planning that operates right under your nose.0 -
Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but the newly raised arguments for hiving off state security from AGS may have as much to do with the recent Garda strike/mutiny as the rising threat level.
During the strike several commentators pointed out the risk inherent in having higher security functions pooled within the same body that does ordinary policing when that body's members can strike with de facto if not de jure impunity from sanction.
In particular I recall Conor Brady (ex GSOC, ex IT Editor, Commision for Future of Policing) raised this issue in an article around the time of the strike that set out a number of options including the formation of a new agency to take national security out of AGS control.
Also not to sidetrack but the claims that 7.62 mm AK pattern rifles would outgun Irish security forces 5.56 mm ones seem to stem from confusing 7.62 x 39 AK rounds that sacrifice performance beyond short range for controllability with the 7.62 x 51 NATO one that didn't (but is virtually uncontrollable on auto).0 -
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CrankyHaus wrote: »Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but the newly raised arguments for hiving off state security from AGS may have as much to do with the recent Garda strike/mutiny as the rising threat level.
During the strike several commentators pointed out the risk inherent in having higher security functions pooled within the same body that does ordinary policing when that body's members can strike with de facto if not de jure impunity from sanction.
In particular I recall Conor Brady (ex GSOC, ex IT Editor, Commision for Future of Policing) raised this issue in an article around the time of the strike that set out a number of options including the formation of a new agency to take national security out of AGS control.
Also not to sidetrack but the claims that 7.62 mm AK pattern rifles would outgun Irish security forces 5.56 mm ones seem to stem from confusing 7.62 x 39 AK rounds that sacrifice performance beyond short range for controllability with the 7.62 x 51 NATO one that didn't (but is virtually uncontrollable on auto).
I didn't read the Conor Brady article, I'll have a look for it. There was another article by Edward Burke too on the matter: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-needs-dedicated-stand-alone-intelligence-service-1.1875941
My input on the 7.62 outgunning issue is based mostly on this article in Time magazine that reported on the matter after the Paris attacks: http://time.com/3687334/arms-smuggling-europe-balkans/
I have no experience in real life of the merits of 7.62 vs 5.56, so I'll happily admit my opinions on that matter are purely theoretical.
EDIT: Newstalk and the Pat Kenny show are discussing the idea about a dedicated agency now too. It's nice to see that some of the informed opinions on this thread are quite accurate with actual former Intelligence Officers:
http://www.newstalk.com/Setting-up-dedicated-intelligence-agency-in-Ireland-would-take-years
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Having an intelligence unit separate to AGS, does not stop the risk of strikes, in fact, I would suggest it hightens the chance.
Civilians won't be treated like Gardai, with less rights then all other workers.0 -
I discovered this other article now, it's the Mirror so I'd take it with a pinch of salt. But one paragraph stood out to me, and it supports my OP that we are the only EU country without a dedicated Intelligence Agency. I knew I had read it somewhere before too:Ireland is the only EU state that doesn't have its own national security and intelligence agency according to Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin.
Deputy Martin said: "That is a matter which requires fairly urgent examination.
"Reports I read are quite critical of our position and the lack of an effective single agency to deal with security and intelligence in this country."
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/ireland-could-new-anti-terror-104990530 -
Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »I'm leaning towards this outcome, but you'd never know. Polls are irrelevant after Trump and Brexit.
They aren't. The outcome was within the deviation of the polling.0 -
The EU does have one.Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »
The EU would probably step up and share more intel with us, but again, the EU has no centralised Intelligence Agency. (More on that here.)0 -
TheAnalyst_ wrote: »The EU does have one.
You're gonna have to expand on these minimalist answer dude...0 -
Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »Yes, my definition of a dedicated agency would be a stand alone organisation with full independent control of officers and agents that can provide offensive, defensive, logistical, threat assessment, mission planning, and intelligence gathering capabilities.
I don't think EU INTCEN could order one of their member states to conduct a cyber attack, for example. But I could be wrong...
I don't have particularly strong views on the formation of an EU intelligence agency, although it will probably be created in the next few years.
no scrutiny or oversight?......yeah, sounds like a good idea given our history :rolleyes:
.....any agency would be fatally compromised within months of setting up - or are you advocating that we also establish an independent signals and cryptographic capacity to develop secure technologies independent from other countries?0 -
no scrutiny or oversight?......yeah, sounds like a good idea given our history :rolleyes:
.....any agency would be fatally compromised within months of setting up - or are you advocating that we also establish an independent signals and cryptographic capacity to develop secure technologies independent from other countries?
It goes without saying that an Intelligence Agency must be accountable and operate within a clearly defined legal and ethical framework. The potential for corruption is massive, so this is why they must be kept on a tight leash. I cannot emphasise this point enough.
I previously stated in the OP that defence in depth is the best security arrangement. Ireland should consider operating it's own intelligence to provide multiple layers of defence, but of course should continue to co-operate, train, share intelligence, and liaise closely with other Intelligence Agencies and organisations. So yes, I think there should be a move towards our own independent capacity, or at least a serious overhaul of the current system. As I already stated, there may be a time when our 'outsourcing' of Intelligence may come back to haunt us. Mainly in the event of a Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister scenario.
However, as has already been noted, it would take years to develop and refine our own signals and crypto systems, not to mention cultivating direct sources and placing agents within extremist circles. So this wouldn't happen overnight, but a long range strategy needs to be taken into consideration. It is a politically incorrect fact of reality that as a Muslim population increases, so too does the amount of extremists. I don't think it is unrealistic to suggest that within 10 years, the number of extremists in Ireland will have increased significantly. As we have already been warned directly from within the Muslim community, radicalisation is definitely taking place in Ireland now.
Meanwhile, the Irish Times is commenting that the Gardai need an increase in Arabic translators in order to initiate direct community policing and intelligence gathering with the Muslim community. I had touched on this already that they may need to open up the translator positions to the public, as I suspect the number of Arab speakers within the Garda organisation would probably be within single figures.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/arabic-speakers-needed-in-garda-not-more-guns-1.31112320 -
Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »It goes without saying that an Intelligence Agency must be accountable and operate within a clearly defined legal and ethical framework. The potential for corruption is massive, so this is why they must be kept on a tight leash. I cannot emphasise this point enough.
I previously stated in the OP that defence in depth is the best security arrangement. Ireland should consider operating it's own intelligence to provide multiple layers of defence, but of course should continue to co-operate, train, share intelligence, and liaise closely with other Intelligence Agencies and organisations. So yes, I think there should be a move towards our own independent capacity, or at least a serious overhaul of the current system. As I already stated, there may be a time when our 'outsourcing' of Intelligence may come back to haunt us. Mainly in the event of a Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister scenario.
However, as has already been noted, it would take years to develop and refine our own signals and crypto systems, not to mention cultivating direct sources and placing agents within extremist circles. So this wouldn't happen overnight, but a long range strategy needs to be taken into consideration. It is a politically incorrect fact of reality that as a Muslim population increases, so too does the amount of extremists. I don't think it is unrealistic to suggest that within 10 years, the number of extremists in Ireland will have increased significantly. As we have already been warned directly from within the Muslim community, radicalisation is definitely taking place in Ireland now.
Meanwhile, the Irish Times is commenting that the Gardai need an increase in Arabic translators in order to initiate direct community policing and intelligence gathering with the Muslim community. I had touched on this already that they may need to open up the translator positions to the public, as I suspect the number of Arab speakers within the Garda organisation would probably be within single figures.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/arabic-speakers-needed-in-garda-not-more-guns-1.3111232
Seriously?
....and while we're refining "our own signals and crypto systems" do you think other intelligence agencies are just going to sit there benignly watching us or are they going to try and worm their way in?
....and if the number of potential islamic extremists is an argument, what about the dissident threat? Or surely if there was no argument for setting up an intelligence and security agency at a time when several organisations were actively targeting and engaging in the subversion of the State, then there's no real argument now? IS/ISIS are not an existential threat to us.
And given our profile I'd imagine we'd be better off recruiting Mandarin speakers into the Guards rather than establishing a whole new security apparatus that may well have different accountability arrangements but is unlikely to be any more effective given it won't really be relying on new blood......it'll just be a repackaging of existing arrangements.0 -
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Seriously?
....and while we're refining "our own signals and crypto systems" do you think other intelligence agencies are just going to sit there benignly watching us or are they going to try and worm their way in?
That is par for the course, and should be expected as a matter of routine. The very nature of spying is to collect intelligence on everyone; friends, enemies, and neutrals alike. So take the obvious precautions to prevent infiltration. The reality is that many Intelligence services are already operating here, and in the North, and have been for decades. Some are permanent, others are temporary.....and if the number of potential islamic extremists is an argument, what about the dissident threat? Or surely if there was no argument for setting up an intelligence and security agency at a time when several organisations were actively targeting and engaging in the subversion of the State, then there's no real argument now? IS/ISIS are not an existential threat to us.
The dissident threat is being very carefully and actively monitored, with the added advantage of speaking the same language. Also, the dissidents have a fear of being killed and captured, and can be influenced by public opinion and bad PR. Not so with Islamic extremism. Also, I'm happy to report that the CIRA appear to be have announced just this morning that they will disband, having been utterly penetrated and destroyed by MI5. An excellent operation, and very successful.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/continuity-ira-says-it-will-end-its-futile-campaign-35805826.htmlAnd given our profile I'd imagine we'd be better off recruiting Mandarin speakers into the Guards rather than establishing a whole new security apparatus that may well have different accountability arrangements but is unlikely to be any more effective given it won't really be relying on new blood......it'll just be a repackaging of existing arrangements.
I would agree about recruiting more Mandarin speaking Guards, there is a utter Intelligence blind spot there, and there are probably Chinese industrial spies, criminals, arms dealers, mafia types, and human traffickers operating here. Also, there is an Islamic threat from the Uighur Chinese also, not many people are aware of that. (Their language is more related to Turkish, so that's another aspect of things. But I assume there would be an element of bi-linguism.) Click here for further reading if you're interested.
But it's not an either/or decision when it comes to deciding who to recruit. You can recruit from all sectors including Arab speakers, if the budget is directed properly.0
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