Why Ireland needs a domestic Intelligence organisation immediately

Peregrine

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Why have an opinion if you know close to zero about a subject? That always puzzles me.

Then an even smaller percentage of the population who are part of intelligence could have an opinion on national security.

I don't claim to be privy to how it's run but I think the citizens deserve more than vague assurances because they're getting more of articles such as these and I don't think it's helping.

A number of sources have said that neither section has members who can speak or read Arabic, posing obvious limitations: from monitoring Arabic communications — both online and in phone taps — to reading any Arabic documentation.

Now, I have reason to believe that may not be entirely true either. I don't think I need to be an expert at national security to explore the advantages or confidence a dedicated service would give. Like I said, I need more concrete assurances and I don't need to be effectively told to shut up because I'm not part of the small percentage who run it.

riffmongous

Peregrine wrote: »

Well, you wouldn't need to be a fully trained garda or a soldier to be part of the intelligence service.

You can be translator..or a engineer. They could hire any civilian they want rather than training soldiers to learn Arabic or sharing classified info with consultants.

I wonder if they avoided use of civilians to minimise the risk of infiltration by Republican sympathisers? Go back a few years and a huge amount of the population would have had general sympathy for The Cause, even if they didn't have actual links.

riffmongous

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ireland has more experience with domestic terrorists that most countries.

And in the last few years has been very successful too

Your Face

Now ye're talking - to a domestic terrorism expert.

kupus

nuff said.

10000maniacs

Here we go wrote: »

We have access to the British and other European intelligence services all spend far far more then e could ever afford. I'd be far more worried about are response capability last night from first call to Last terriost put down was 8 minutes. By any measurement a swift and effective response. Yet still 7 dead 50 in hospital. Imagine this in Ireland by the time an adiqute response was mobilised. They would have run out of people to kill and on there way back to what ever hope they came out from

The elephant in the room yet again is discussion of assimilation within the ranks of the Muslim communities in Europe. When a Muslim comes out and says Islam is a religion of peace, what do they mean? Do they mean when sharia law is in place then we will have peace. That is certainly what the Koran seems to be saying.

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

Political correctness is the biggest ally of these Muslim radicals.
These questions need to be asked. In Ireland it is politically incorrect to ask them, but they should be asked nonetheless.
If it was one of my family lying dead on London Bridge or in that concert hall hall in Manchester, I would at the very least need these questions asked.








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Biggest lickspittle on boardz

riffmongous wrote: »

I wonder if they avoided use of civilians to minimise the risk of infiltration by Republican sympathisers? Go back a few years and a huge amount of the population would have had general sympathy for The Cause, even if they didn't have actual links.

Yes there was probably an element of this. But the Guards very much have an 'us versus the rest' mentality, so they probably didn't want dirty laundry being exposed to the public. Although the Gardai were still infiltrated by the IRA, the 2 RUC officers murdered after crossing back across the Border was almost certainly a tip off from a serving Garda.

But that attitude needs to change fast. There's a new player in town, and they are intent on causing mass casualties.

Here we go

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

I'm sure you wouldn't be quite so casual with people's lives if it was your child lying on the ground with her throat cut.

Read paragraph 2 of the OP for why I think an extra layer of security is warranted. There might also come a point post-Brexit where the UK decides the won't share intel with us anymore.

Or if Corbyn gets elected, he has indicated he would shut down the intelligence services :eek:

Not being casual just dout we can do better then thats already available. And even if we could last last 3 attacks in the U.K. Show no mater the intelligence attacks still happen. And we are wofuly ill equipped to respond to an attack as I said 8 minutes it took the London police to respond and stop the treat. Yet still 7 dead 50 injured. What do you think are response time would be 20 /30 mins an hour ?

bigpink

Huge amounts of muslims here illegal or on dodgy student visas.Limerick is packed with them.Not all bad but no checks

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

Here we go wrote: »

Not being casual just dout we can do better then thats already available. And even if we could last last 3 attacks in the U.K. Show no mater the intelligence attacks still happen. And we are wofuly ill equipped to respond to an attack as I said 8 minutes it took the London police to respond and stop the treat. Yet still 7 dead 50 injured. What do you think are response time would be 20 /30 mins an hour ?

Sorry, my apologies. I misread your post, I thought you said 'only' 7 dead 50 injured. I'll have to lay off the toilet duck on Sunday mornings... :pac:

You are of course correct in your assessment of the response times. The UK was on full alert last night, with military deployment, so they were playing their strongest team on the field. And there was still a mass casualty attack with maximum security in place.

Our response to neutralise any threat would probably be over 1 hour at least.

TheAnalyst_

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

Our response to neutralise any threat would probably be over 1 hour at least.

Based on what? How can you say something like that with zero knowledge or expertise?

Here we go

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

I'm sure you wouldn't be quite so casual with people's lives if it was your child lying on the ground with her throat cut.

Read paragraph 2 of the OP for why I think an extra layer of security is warranted. There might also come a point post-Brexit where the UK decides the won't share intel with us anymore.

Or if Corbyn gets elected, he has indicated he would shut down the intelligence services :eek:

Not being casual just dout we can do better then thats already available. And even if we could last last 3 attacks in the U.K. Show no mater the intelligence attacks still happen. And we are wofuly ill equipped to respond to an attack as I said 8 minutes it took the London police to respond and stop the treat. Yet still 7 dead 50 injured. What do you think are response time would be 20 /30 mins an hour ?

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Based on what? How can you say something like that with zero knowledge or expertise?

As I said above, yesterday saw the UK on full alert. And still their earliest response was 8 minutes in the capital city. So lets say there is an incident in Ireland that requires the immediate insertion of the Army Ranger Wing. That'll mean notifying the ARW, mobilisation, and briefing. (Although the briefing can be done in transit).

Unlike the UK special forces, the ARW does not have their own 24/7 pilots or helicopters. So that will mean notifying the Air Corps. If the attack happens after 6, you'll be looking at trying to get a crew out to Baldonnel, during heavy traffic. They don't keep people on standby, as we tragically discovered during the crash of Rescue 116.

So that's a lot of time wasted already. Meanwhile, unarmed Gardai are asking the attacker politely to stop, or the might have to draw their batons. You can imagine how this will go down with an armed Islamic terrorist.

If they are lucky, an armed support unit might get in early and neutralise the terrorist. If he's not firing back, that is. And remember how the terrorists killed two armed police during the Charlie Hebdo attacks. Police are not bulletproof superheroes who will ride in and save the day for everyone like in a Hollywood movie.

It takes mountains of firepower and ammunition to take down a determined terrorist, who will probably the under the influence of drugs to reduce pain and increase their psychotic state.

Now all that is just for 1 terrorist. Imagine what will happen if there are a few of them marauding around Dublin in a mobile situation. Speaking of mobiles, I don't think we even have the capability to switch off our phone networks immediately, to ensure clear comms between the Emergency and Security services.

And if the attack is in a rural area, casualties will be enormous. The response times will be shocking.

I have more knowledge on these matters than you might think, at least academically. (I'm not claiming to be an super special agent or anything like that). And it keeps me awake at night when you realise how open we are to an attack. We have a grand total of 3 armed officers for Dublin airport.

At least the UK has a well experienced and aware population as a result of the Troubles. We haven't a clue what is about to happen.

But anyway, it makes no difference. Just like Pearl Harbour, all the information and warnings are there but most people don't care until it comes to their front door. Then and only then will the Irish public, media, and politicians take notice. By which time lives will have been needlessly lost.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

As I said above, yesterday saw the UK on full alert. And still their earliest response was 8 minutes in the capital city. So lets say there is an incident in Ireland that requires the immediate insertion of the Army Ranger Wing. That'll mean notifying the ARW, mobilisation, and briefing. (Although the briefing can be done in transit).

Unlike the UK special forces, the ARW does not have their own 24/7 pilots or helicopters. So that will mean notifying the Air Corps. If the attack happens after 6, you'll be looking at trying to get a crew out to Baldonnel, during heavy traffic. They don't keep people on standby, as we tragically discovered during the crash of Rescue 116.

So that's a lot of time wasted already. Meanwhile, unarmed Gardai are asking the attacker politely to stop, or the might have to draw their batons. You can imagine how this will go down with an armed Islamic terrorist.

If they are lucky, an armed support unit might get in early and neutralise the terrorist. If he's not firing back, that is. And remember how the terrorists killed two armed police during the Charlie Hebdo attacks. Police are not bulletproof superheroes who will ride in and save the day for everyone like in a Hollywood movie.

It takes mountains of firepower and ammunition to take down a determined terrorist, who will probably the under the influence of drugs to reduce pain and increase their psychotic state.

Now all that is just for 1 terrorist. Imagine what will happen if there are a few of them marauding around Dublin in a mobile situation. Speaking of mobiles, I don't think we even have the capability to switch off our phone networks immediately, to ensure clear comms between the Emergency and Security services.

And if the attack is in a rural area, casualties will be enormous. The response times will be shocking.

I have more knowledge on these matters than you might think, at least academically. (I'm not claiming to be an super special agent or anything like that). And it keeps me awake at night when you realise how open we are to an attack. We have a grand total of 3 armed officers for Dublin airport.

At least the UK has a well experienced and aware population as a result of the Troubles. We haven't a clue what is about to happen.

But anyway, it makes no difference. Just like Pearl Harbour, all the information and warnings are there but most people don't care until it comes to their front door. Then and only then will the Irish public, media, and politicians take notice. By which time lives will have been needlessly lost.

It actually was 8 minutes from the initial call to the shooting dead of the suspects. So response was clearly much quicker.

There won't be a situation that requires immediate insertion of the ARW, won't happen.

There are a huge amount of armed officers on patrol in Dublin 24 hours a day. ERU, ASU, SDU, all detectives are armed. So response time would be within minutes.

There wouldn't be much point in an Islamic terrorist attacking a rural area, they seem to like the busier areas. I can't think of a reason they would.

While there maybe 3 armed detectives attached to Dublin airport, there are lots more in Dublin. You don't think those 3 armed guards work 24/7/365 do you?

And if the UK has a well experienced police force & civilian population because of the troubles, I believe Ireland surely has too.

The one issue there could be, is if like you say, there are more than one attack in different areas at the same time. We won't have enough personnel to deal with that I would imagine. I mean any emergency services

TheAnalyst_

The army ranger wing? Christ...
We have units specifically for this task.
Emergency Response Unit,
Regional Support Unit. 
We've a lot more armed gardai than most people think.

In reality. You could go to a nightclub in Carrick on Shannon on a bank holiday. Shoot people for over an hour before an armed response would get there.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

The army ranger wing? Christ...
We have units specifically for this task.
Emergency Response Unit,
Regional Support Unit. 
We've a lot more armed gardai than most people think.

In a major crisis, the ARW would almost certainly be called in to take the lead role. Their firepower would be superior to the Gardai's 9mm MP-7 sub-machine guns. One of the outcomes of the Paris attacks was that the French realised the were outgunned by the 7.62mm AK-47 assault rifles versus 9mm pistols and 5.56 carbines. The 7.62 has more range, stopping power, and accuracy.


Frankly, the ARW would be fitter, better trained, more aggressive, better armed, and more experienced in urban combat fighting.

To the best of my knowledge, it was the ARW that shot Dessie O Hare in an ambush. They were also deployed, but not used, during the Mountjoy siege.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

awec

It is a shame that every time there is one of these incidents the barstool intelligence and security experts all scurry out from under their rocks for a few days pretending that they have even the smallest idea about what counter terrorism is happening in this country.

Just because Irish intelligence services don't feature in endless Hollywood movies and we don't have our very own James Bond does not mean it doesn't exist or that they're all a bunch of uncouth paddies sitting around a table drinking tea and watching Father Ted on repeat.

Strong Life in Dublin

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

We do but its part of AGS. What difference does it make if it were separate organisation?

You will get much more capable smater people if it's separate. Because to join any unit in the garda you must a regular guard for at least 2 years.

So I dont think lads with PhDs or whatever wouls join

AnGaelach

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Yes we do we have G2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directorate_of_Military_Intelligence_(Ireland)

That's not a standalone service (it provides both military and police intelligence), and it relies on British or ex-British military for most of its security/IT.

For example, the UK has both its intelligence community (Mi5/SiS) and the Army intelligence corps. We have... A few dozen lads (if even) who operate as both intelligence and military.

CrabRevolution

It's strange how the posters who come on here demanding shiny new departments and defence forces all claim to be experts in all things about intelligence and defence. Yet they seem to have an incredibly poor knowledge of the intelligence and defence capabilities of their own country.

Poster 1: "We need to set up an Irish counter terrorism force, an intelligence branch etc."
Poster 2: "We already have all those things"
Poster 1: "Well they're Irish so they must be crap, and I've never seen them so they must do nothing"
Poster 2: "Actually they are well trained and experienced. They do extensive work that often doesn't make the news, and are well regarded abroad"
Poster 1: "No, I told you they're useless. They're so bad a single terrorist could kill everyone in Ireland and stop for lunch in the middle"

Repeat ad nauseum every time there's an attack abroad.

AnGaelach

CrabRevolution wrote: »

It's strange how the posters who come on here demanding shiny new departments and defence forces all claim to be experts in all things about intelligence and defence. Yet they seem to have an incredibly poor knowledge of the intelligence and defence capabilities of their own country.

Poster 1: "We need to set up an Irish counter terrorism force, an intelligence branch etc."
Poster 2: "We already have all those things"
Poster 1: "Well they're Irish so they must be crap, and I've never seen them so they must do nothing"
Poster 2: "Actually they are well trained and experienced. They do extensive work that often doesn't make the news, and are well regarded abroad"
Poster 1: "No, I told you they're useless. They're so bad a single terrorist could kill everyone in Ireland and stop for lunch in the middle"

Repeat ad nauseum every time there's an attack abroad.

You got this part wrong though. We're not well-regarded, that's just a platitude you hear. Much like how every time Obama had a national leader meet him, he went with the "punching above its weight" routine.

TheAnalyst_

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

We do but its part of AGS. What difference does it make if it were separate organisation?

You will get much more capable smater people if it's separate. Because to join any unit in the garda you must a regular guard for at least 2 years.

So I dont think lads with PhDs or whatever wouls join

Wrong. There are quite a few intel analysts with phds working for them.

Barry Badrinath

AnGaelach wrote: »

That's not a standalone service (it provides both military and police intelligence), and it relies on British or ex-British military for most of its security/IT.

For example, the UK has both its intelligence community (Mi5/SiS) and the Army intelligence corps. We have... A few dozen lads (if even) who operate as both intelligence and military.

Explain the British part to me like I am a 10 year old.

Beyondgone

Deleted User wrote: »

In reality. You could go to a nightclub in Carrick on Shannon on a bank holiday. Shoot people for over an hour before an armed response would get there.

Meh, I'm gonna say you're wrong. I've seen one, just the one incident where gardai were on "fast response". I'd say it was 7 or 8 minutes before they were there mob-handed. I was mildly stunned at how fast they got their stuff on site. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

awec wrote: »

It is a shame that every time there is one of these incidents the barstool intelligence and security experts all scurry out from under their rocks for a few days pretending that they have even the smallest idea about what counter terrorism is happening in this country.

Just because Irish intelligence services don't feature in endless Hollywood movies and we don't have our very own James Bond does not mean it doesn't exist or that they're all a bunch of uncouth paddies sitting around a table drinking tea and watching Father Ted on repeat.

I presume this is a dig at me, so please enlighten me as to what our security services are doing, without compromising operations of course. I'm more than happy to add to the information pool by providing reliable information for posters to discuss and challenge. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I'm prepared to bow to any superior knowledge if you can provide it.

Or was it just an cheap attempt to get a dig by patronizingly referring to 'barstool experts crawling out from under their rocks'. I don't think any adult with an IQ in double figures thinks real intelligence work has anything to do with James Bond stuff either.

Widdershins

Beyondgone wrote: »

Meh, I'm gonna say you're wrong. I've seen one, just the one incident where gardai were on "fast response". I'd say it was 7 or 8 minutes before they were there mob-handed. I was mildly stunned at how fast they got their stuff on site. Where there's a will, there's a way.

In Dublin or in the proper sticks?

Boaty

Anyone who posts on a public fourm as to what the security services do, hasn't a clue about what they actually do.

Carawaystick

If we take non Irish terrorists as the threat, the uk is the most obvious one
Dublin Monaghan bombings
Burning a city centre down
Going into a football stadium and opening indescriminate fire
Opening fire on civil rights march