Terrorist Attack in Manchester (Read MOD WARNING in OP Updated 24/05/2017))

Spanish Eyes · 24-05-2017 04:54PM

bodhrandude wrote: »

It looks like The Sun newspaper has lost a second English city readership, with Manchester effectively banning the newspaper for their headline post terrorist incident.

This was what The Sun chose to put on its front page in the aftermath.':

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/05/24/manchester-set-become-second-city-ban-sun-appalling-response-concert-bombing-tweets/

Who reads that potential toilet paper rag anyway.

Was it the Sun that was also banned in Liverpool after the Hillsborough disaster, I think it was.

testaccount123 · 24-05-2017 04:54PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I disagree. I would argue that most people of violence use a reason or a cause as an excuse.

There are also contradictions in the point you are arguing. You say you are not "rationalising the act", yet you say "reasonable people have to ask questions about 'why' it is happening".

If the act isn't rational, and you seem to agree that it isn't, then there isn't a reason or a rationale, just an excuse that the coward who carried out this act is hiding behind.

So you think there are no reasons Islamists are slaughtering people in Europe then?

KKkitty · 24-05-2017 04:55PM

bodhrandude wrote: »

It looks like The Sun newspaper has lost a second English city readership, with Manchester effectively banning the newspaper for their headline post terrorist incident.

'On the night of 22 May, an audience made up mostly of teenage girls was attacked with a bomb as they left an Ariana Grande concert at Manchester?s MEN Arena. The youngest victim to have been identified so far is 8-year-old Saffie Rose Roussos.

This was what The Sun chose to put on its front page in the aftermath.':

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/05/24/manchester-set-become-second-city-ban-sun-appalling-response-concert-bombing-tweets/

The Sun is a despicable rag. Tastefulness and tact are not in the vocabulary of its editorial staff. I hope Manchester boycotts it like Liverpool did.

blanch152 · 24-05-2017 04:56PM

Exeggcute wrote: »

Ah the old mental health deflection.

Neither a deflection nor about mental health.

There are millions of people who believe in Creationism in the US. They are not mentally ill, simply deluded. Similarly, applying rationale to a terrorist is futile.

It doesn't matter whether the terrorist thinks it is about British imperialism, Christian infidels, Fornication, or whatever that caused him to bomb Manchester. Understanding that is as futile as understanding the rationale behind Creationism.

kopite386 · 24-05-2017 04:56PM

ITV news have just named the 13th victim as Michelle Kiss a married mother of 3

blanch152 · 24-05-2017 04:58PM

testaccount123 wrote: »

So you think there are no reasons Islamists are slaughtering people in Europe then?

Other than those who carry out the acts are misguided, deluded, brainwashed, psychopaths and/or are guided by those who are that, then no.

The reasons aren't rational and aren't sufficient to explain the murder of innocent civilians.

Edit: To put it another way, any effort to understand should concentrate on the "how" rather than the "why". The "why" defies understanding, certainly to a normal person.

FrancieBrady · 24-05-2017 04:59PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I disagree. I would argue that most people of violence use a reason or a cause as an excuse.

There are also contradictions in the point you are arguing. You say you are not "rationalising the act", yet you say "reasonable people have to ask questions about 'why' it is happening".

If the act isn't rational, and you seem to agree that it isn't, then there isn't a reason or a rationale, just an excuse that the coward who carried out this act is hiding behind.

:rolleyes: acts that are 'irrational' to you and me happen for reasons too. And we must examine those reasons if we feel any sense of justice for those deprived of their lives.
If some policy or action of the state persuaded this man that his actions were justified then we must examine that action or policy to see if it is causing this drastic reaction in native Muslims.

Stop trying to censor the debate about why these acts are happening would be my advice.

As somebody else said, nobody has tried to defend the act on this thread.

testaccount123 · 24-05-2017 05:00PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Other than those who carry out the acts are misguided, deluded, brainwashed, psychopaths and/or are guided by those who are that, then no.

The reasons aren't rational and aren't sufficient to explain the murder of innocent civilians.

Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable.

kopite386 · 24-05-2017 05:02PM

The UK police arrested the older brother of the suicide bomber yesterday and now the younger brother has been arrested in Libya on suspicion of links to IS

FrancieBrady · 24-05-2017 05:05PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Other than those who carry out the acts are misguided, deluded, brainwashed, psychopaths and/or are guided by those who are that, then no.

The reasons aren't rational and aren't sufficient to explain the murder of innocent civilians.

Edit: To put it another way, any effort to understand should concentrate on the "how" rather than the "why". The "why" defies understanding, certainly to a normal person.

The killing of innocent civilians has been rationalised for centuries by most states, religions and groups on the planet.

Just because you don't want to look too closely at what actions of Britain might be having repercussions doesn't validate your point. It is completely wrong and selective.

blanch152 · 24-05-2017 05:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

:rolleyes: acts that are 'irrational' to you and me happen for reasons too. And we must examine those reasons if we feel any sense of justice for those deprived of their lives.
If some policy or action of the state persuaded this man that his actions were justified then we must examine that action or policy to see if it is causing this drastic reaction in native Muslims.

Stop trying to censor the debate about why these acts are happening would be my advice.

As somebody else said, nobody has tried to defend the act on this thread.

Why? Let us follow your logic:

The policy in Ireland not to breathalyse everybody leaving a pub means that some people drink and drive, therefore the State is causing every incident of drink-driving.

Go further, by licensing people to drive, rather than banning it all together, the State is causing all road accidents involving drivers.

Where does it end?

Simply put, an act of terrorism against a democratic State, in and of itself, is so vile in nature, that the individual responsibility of the person who commits it, those who assisted in its commital and those who support or defend it, override any policy of the State.

Why are people so quick to move away from personal responsibility to "Oh it must have been some policy of the terrible British imperial State that caused him to do it"?

njs030 · 24-05-2017 05:10PM

kopite386 wrote: »

The UK police arrested the older brother of the suicide bomber yesterday and now the younger brother has been arrested in Libya on suspicion of links to IS

Do you have a link to the report of the arrest of the older brother?

Jimoslimos · 24-05-2017 05:12PM

bodhrandude wrote: »

It looks like The Sun newspaper has lost a second English city readership, with Manchester effectively banning the newspaper for their headline post terrorist incident.

That's a bizarre criticism. I think The Sun are pure scum but the bombing happened late at night, most probably past the deadline for early morning editions.

blanch152 · 24-05-2017 05:13PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The killing of innocent civilians has been rationalised for centuries by most states, religions and groups on the planet.

Not by me, only by those who would excuse it.

To me, an act of violence committed in defence of a democratic state or to protect its citizens, can in certain instances, be justified/rationalised/excused/explained - policing, defence etc. - but must be subject to democratic control and oversight by elected civilians. All terrorist activity, and most forms of violence fall outside this definition

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Just because you don't want to look too closely at what actions of Britain might be having repercussions doesn't validate your point. It is completely wrong and selective.

Quite simply, that just doesn't apply in this situation.

c_man · 24-05-2017 05:16PM

bodhrandude wrote: »

It looks like The Sun newspaper has lost a second English city readership, with Manchester effectively banning the newspaper for their headline post terrorist incident.

'On the night of 22 May, an audience made up mostly of teenage girls was attacked with a bomb as they left an Ariana Grande concert at Manchester?s MEN Arena. The youngest victim to have been identified so far is 8-year-old Saffie Rose Roussos.

This was what The Sun chose to put on its front page in the aftermath.':

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/05/24/manchester-set-become-second-city-ban-sun-appalling-response-concert-bombing-tweets/

The Canary?! Hahahaha! Yeah, the actual truth is that the "Blood on his hands" story was a quote from a former IRA member about Corbyn and his involvement (or not) in the peace process. That went to press before the Manchester bombing happened or details were known.

The Canary know this, it's the very definition of fake news.

The Canary is about as reliable as Breitbart by and by, you're better off getting your news from bus-stop ads.

Edit: And it was rightly pulled from later editions.

FrancieBrady · 24-05-2017 05:19PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Why? Let us follow your logic:

The policy in Ireland not to breathalyse everybody leaving a pub means that some people drink and drive, therefore the State is causing every incident of drink-driving.

Go further, by licensing people to drive, rather than banning it all together, the State is causing all road accidents involving drivers.

Where does it end?

Simply put, an act of terrorism against a democratic State, in and of itself, is so vile in nature, that the individual responsibility of the person who commits it, those who assisted in its commital and those who support or defend it, override any policy of the State.

Why are people so quick to move away from personal responsibility to "Oh it must have been some policy of the terrible British imperial State that caused him to do it"?

If you don't want to look at why a native Briton would do something like this then you are part of the problem. Because you have no solutions other than rounding up potential psychopaths. It will continue to happen.
How else are you going to stop it? By condemnation? :rolleyes:

To my original point, like you, the people of Britain are not ready to look rationally at the root cause of the problem (whatever they may be, I am only speculating).
At least Corbyn is offering an alternative to exacerbating the problem. Perhaps it will take 30 or 40 years for them to see it and act, sadly.. We Irish have bitter and tragic experience of that, discussing and debating it publicly is a healthy thing imo.

kopite386 · 24-05-2017 05:21PM

notjustsweet wrote: »

Do you have a link to the report of the arrest of the older brother?

Yeah the father confirmed it when he said his son (the suicide bomber) is innocent
https://twitter.com/AP/status/867376846165479426

fullstop · 24-05-2017 05:22PM

roddy15 wrote: »

Can I actually see that because I can't find that claim anywhere? Call me sceptical but I don't really want to randomly believe stuff.

It was. It was reposted just after the attack from twitter, the account had earlier been shut down.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 24-05-2017 05:34PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

That's a bizarre criticism. I think The Sun are pure scum but the bombing happened late at night, most probably past the deadline for early morning editions.

Yes I've no time for censorship of the press. I've visited college campuses who have banned certain publications.

It's actually a scary mindset to have.

Cortina_MK_IV · 24-05-2017 05:35PM

notjustsweet wrote: »

Do you have a link to the report of the arrest of the older brother?

And the younger brother was arrested in Tripoli.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-security-manchester-libya-idUSKBN18K28M

Persephone kindness · 24-05-2017 05:40PM

kopite386 wrote: »

Yeah the father confirmed it when he said his son (the suicide bomber) is innocent
https://twitter.com/AP/status/867376846165479426

Wow. I didn't expect that.

Persephone kindness · 24-05-2017 05:43PM

The family is obv covering for him.

Parchment · 24-05-2017 05:49PM

kopite386 wrote: »

Yeah the father confirmed it when he said his son (the suicide bomber) is innocent
https://twitter.com/AP/status/867376846165479426

sound like a lovely family.

Exeggcute · 24-05-2017 05:49PM

The father was a member of a former Al-Qaeda backed group in Libya.

A Libyan security official that personally knows the father said he was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group in the 1990's

He said the father belongs to the Salafi Jihafi movement, the most extreme sect of Salafism and from which Al Qaeda and ISIS hail.

My my my...no wonder he thinks his son is innocent. How this ****er was ever allowed into the UK is beyond me.

JPCN1 · 24-05-2017 05:55PM

Exeggcute wrote: »

The father was a member of a former Al-Qaeda backed group in Libya.

A Libyan security official that personally knows the father said he was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group in the 1990's

He said the father belongs to the Salafi Jihafi movement, the most extreme sect of Salafism and from which Al Qaeda and ISIS hail.

My my my...no wonder he thinks his son is innocent. How this ****er was ever allowed into the UK is beyond me.

Because some gobshytes there fall for any sob story. Like we are. Now.

The_Kew_Tour · 24-05-2017 06:10PM

Exeggcute wrote: »

The father was a member of a former Al-Qaeda backed group in Libya.

A Libyan security official that personally knows the father said he was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group in the 1990's

He said the father belongs to the Salafi Jihafi movement, the most extreme sect of Salafism and from which Al Qaeda and ISIS hail.

My my my...no wonder he thinks his son is innocent. How this ****er was ever allowed into the UK is beyond me.

His Human Rights though and all that

Coffee Fulled Runner · 24-05-2017 06:18PM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

The family is obv covering for him.

If there is even a shred of any evidence of this, I hope the law is fully thrown at them.

Exeggcute · 24-05-2017 06:19PM

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

If there is even a shred of any evidence of this, I hope the law is fully thrown at them.

They are in Libya.

JPCN1 · 24-05-2017 06:20PM

Send them to Syria.

_oveless_ · 24-05-2017 06:20PM

My heart goes out to Muslims everywhere who will be treated with suspicion and scrutiny after this unfortunate incident, Islam & Muslims in general are the biggest victim in all of this. The responsibility for this attack has more to do with brexit and trump than it does to Islam. Europe needs to learn to live with these unfortunate events, we just need to not dwell on them and move on as quickly as possible.

Terrorist Attack in Manchester (Read MOD WARNING in OP Updated 24/05/2017))

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