Electric Ireland solar panels & EV charging?

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 10:06AM

unkel wrote: »

Even if you use the full 1,500kWh and stick it into your EV (all of it!), it will have saved you about €100 per year at 7c night rate

In practice you might only use half during the day and use it for your house. In that case you will also save about €100 per year at day rates

Even if you could get this installation done for €2.5k instead of the €4.5k they are looking for, payback would be at least 25 years, probably a lot more taking into account system maintenance and less than ideal use of the units produced...

And don't even think of spending money to divert excess to immersion, as that will save you just about nothing taking into account the extra cost of hardware and installation

We need FIT, Minister, wake up!!!

Agreed. Unless solar PV dramatically drops in price , you have to have the ability to time shift solar energy

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 10:11AM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You won't get an eight-year warranty on your battery if it is being used to run your house at night. The higher number of cycles will break down the battery faster.

Utility batteries will always be significantly cheaper than car batteries.

Li batteries by and large degrade via parasitic action rather then chsrge cycles. Hence degradation is more a calander life issue rather then a usage one.. the main reason your iPhone degrades after a few years is not be because you've been charging it , it's that " a few years " have passed.

Hence using the car battery in support of a solar PV array would have little effect on degradation.

cnocbui · 18-05-2017 10:22AM

Without a very practical and cost effective energy storage technology - which we don't have - Solar and wind power have to be fully backed by conventional electricity generation capacity, meaning you have two complete sets of energy generation infrastructure and have to pay for both. It's wasteful and stupid. Idealism triumphing over reality.

We are going to need 8% more conventional generation capacity just to power Apple's data centre near Athenry, just so Apple can lie to the world about it being 100% powered from renewable energy - sickening.

Yes, Lithium batteries are one of the worst technologies ever foisted on the public.

antoinolachtnai · 18-05-2017 10:24AM

That is mostly true in my experience but tesla won't give you their full guarantee for the power wall if you are using it in a way that it cycles more than once a day as far as I know.

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 10:25AM

Yes, Lithium batteries are one of the worst technologies ever foisted on the public.

What a bizarre , uninformed and simply bonkets comment

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 10:26AM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is mostly true in my experience but tesla won't give you their full guarantee for the power wall if you are using it in a way that it cycles more than once a day as far as I know.

Huh. Nonsense

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 10:28AM

cnocbui wrote: »

Without a very practical and cost effective energy storage technology - which we don't have - Solar and wind power have to be fully backed by conventional electricity generation capacity, meaning you have two complete sets of energy generation infrastructure and have to pay for both. It's wasteful and stupid. Idealism triumphing over reality.

We are going to need 8% more conventional generation capacity just to power Apple's data centre near Athenry, just so Apple can lie to the world about it being 100% powered from renewable energy - sickening.

Yes, Lithium batteries are one of the worst technologies ever foisted on the public.

The key is grid interconnection , which allows different locations of green energy to back each other up.

That's the strategy esb is working towards.

Of course the ultimate answer is clearly nuclear

antoinolachtnai · 18-05-2017 10:29AM

Discussion of powerwall category 2 warranty here.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/powerwall-2-warranty/

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 10:39AM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Discussion of powerwall category 2 warranty here.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/powerwall-2-warranty/

Yes while the new powerwall warranty is largely junk since it does not set limits on battery degradation. , I was just addressing the poster comments about chsrge cycles

Here the applicable piece

"
Tesla Motors, Inc. warrants that your Powerwall will be free from defects for ten years following the date it was installed for the first time. If you only use your Powerwall for self-consumption of solar energy generated by an onsite array and for storing that solar energy for use as backup power, there is no limit on the number of times that you can cycle your battery in this ten year period."

Note , " no limit " to cycles

Li industry is largely moving away from cycling issues as these have not found to particularly pertinent in Li aging

loyatemu · 18-05-2017 11:05AM

family of 5 in a 4-bed semi - our electricity usage (excluding the standing and PSO charges) is only a little over €500 a year.
I reckon we spend no more than 70c a day on heating water (gas boiler) so maybe €240 per year on that.

how much of this could we realistically save by putting a PV system on the roof - we do a lot of washing which I guess could be mostly done during the day, but don't have a tumble dryer (anyway, on dry sunny days we'd hang the clothes outdoors). Even if we saved 50% of the costs above, the payback would still be 13 years (and 50% seems very optimistic).

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 11:09AM

loyatemu wrote: »

family of 5 in a 4-bed semi - our electricity usage (excluding the standing and PSO charges) is only a little over €500 a year.
I reckon we spend no more than 70c a day on heating water (gas boiler) so maybe €240 per year on that.

how much of this could we realistically save by putting a PV system on the roof - we do a lot of washing which I guess could be mostly done during the day, but don't have a tumble dryer (anyway, on dry sunny days we'd hang the clothes outdoors). Even if we saved 50% of the costs above, the payback would still be 13 years (and 50% seems very optimistic).

I would LOVE to see how your bill is 500 a year , the pso and standing charges would be around 340 , suggesting you are using 150 quid in units or around 600 units a year

I find that very hard to beleive

Ps oh I see you exclude the pso and standing

Still extrneky good going , well below average

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 11:11AM

loyatemu wrote: »

family of 5 in a 4-bed semi - our electricity usage (excluding the standing and PSO charges) is only a little over €500 a year.
I reckon we spend no more than 70c a day on heating water (gas boiler) so maybe €240 per year on that.

how much of this could we realistically save by putting a PV system on the roof - we do a lot of washing which I guess could be mostly done during the day, but don't have a tumble dryer (anyway, on dry sunny days we'd hang the clothes outdoors). Even if we saved 50% of the costs above, the payback would still be 13 years (and 50% seems very optimistic).

How do you dry clothes in the winter ?

And yes as you've discovered at present solar PV is for affianadoes and the financially profligate

Shefwedfan · 18-05-2017 11:12AM

I pay 80 a month, flat rate based on my usage.

cnocbui · 18-05-2017 11:20AM

loyatemu wrote: »

family of 5 in a 4-bed semi - our electricity usage (excluding the standing and PSO charges) is only a little over ?500 a year.
I reckon we spend no more than 70c a day on heating water (gas boiler) so maybe ?240 per year on that.

how much of this could we realistically save by putting a PV system on the roof - we do a lot of washing which I guess could be mostly done during the day, but don't have a tumble dryer (anyway, on dry sunny days we'd hang the clothes outdoors). Even if we saved 50% of the costs above, the payback would still be 13 years (and 50% seems very optimistic).

You must have the best insulated house in the country. I just had a delivery of heating kerosene and it was €476. I'd need 3 of those a year, minimum. 4 Bedroom house, block with cavity and roof insulation.

jimmycrackcorm · 18-05-2017 11:21AM

cnocbui wrote:

Without a very practical and cost effective energy storage technology - which we don't have - Solar and wind power have to be fully backed by conventional electricity generation capacity, meaning you have two complete sets of energy generation infrastructure and have to pay for both. It's wasteful and stupid. Idealism triumphing over reality.

We do have a.cost effective energy storage technology that could be rolled out more. We've had it since 1974.

Have a guess what it is?

KCross · 18-05-2017 11:24AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

We do have a.cost effective energy storage technology that could be rolled out more. We've had it since 1974.

Have a guess what it is?

Turlough Hill

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 11:24AM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I pay 80 a month, flat rate based on my usage.

Me too , 4 bed detached , oil fired , 1997 build , cat B , small house though

That includes the EV charging from typically 30 % to full every week day night

But there just the two of us , all washing and dishwasher fine at night rate and with us not at home cdurung the day

antoinolachtnai · 18-05-2017 02:11PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes while the new powerwall warranty is largely junk since it does not set limits on battery degradation. , I was just addressing the poster comments about chsrge cycles

Here the applicable piece

"
Tesla Motors, Inc. warrants that your Powerwall will be free from defects for ten years following the date it was installed for the first time. If you only use your Powerwall for self-consumption of solar energy generated by an onsite array and for storing that solar energy for use as backup power, there is no limit on the number of times that you can cycle your battery in this ten year period."

Note , " no limit " to cycles

Li industry is largely moving away from cycling issues as these have not found to particularly pertinent in Li aging

The point is that the extent of your use of a battery will make a difference to its life. If you use your battery to run your house as well as for transport, then it is going to reduce its resale value. I cannot see how this can be avoided.

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 02:17PM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The point is that the extent of your use of a battery will make a difference to its life. If you use your battery to run your house as well as for transport, then it is going to reduce its resale value. I cannot see how this can be avoided.

As I have said and is borne out by the Tesla comment, cycles on Li have little effect on degradation, calendar life has more so

Hence a well used but relatively young powerwall, is actually better then a little used but older one. a little used Li battery that is old should have a lower resale battery then a well used younger one ( however this fact is often lost on people , who confuse usage with degradation )

Age is everything with LI

loyatemu · 18-05-2017 03:13PM

BoatMad wrote: »

I would LOVE to see how your bill is 500 a year , the pso and standing charges would be around 340 , suggesting you are using 150 quid in units or around 600 units a year

if you actually read my post you'll see I said it was 500 excluding the standing and PSO.

cnocbui wrote: »

You must have the best insulated house in the country. I just had a delivery of heating kerosene and it was €476. I'd need 3 of those a year, minimum. 4 Bedroom house, block with cavity and roof insulation.

I didn't say anything about heating, which is gas fired and costs a fortune, but PV won't do anything for that.

How do you dry clothes in the winter ?

clothes horse + dehumidifier. We do have a washer/dryer but the dryer bit only gets used for sheets.

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 03:15PM

loyatemu wrote: »

if you actually read my post you'll see I said it was 500 excluding the standing and PSO.

i did see that later

Im at 80 a month inclusing charging the EV every weekday night, but theres just the two of us

Energy average for a 4 bed , 4 occupant house is 1800 a year !

loyatemu · 18-05-2017 03:34PM

BoatMad wrote: »

i did see that later

Im at 80 a month inclusing charging the EV every weekday night, but theres just the two of us

Energy average for a 4 bed , 4 occupant house is 1800 a year !

well we have gas heating and the total gas+elec is close enough to that figure, but the bulk of that is heating.

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 03:35PM

loyatemu wrote: »

well we have gas heating and the total gas+elec is close enough to that figure, but the bulk of that is heating.

sorry I meant Energia average for electricity for that is 1800 a year

I heat with a combination of timber and oil, about 500 euros a year all in

loyatemu · 18-05-2017 03:48PM

BoatMad wrote: »

sorry I meant Energia average for electricity for that is 1800 a year

seems very high - what's using all the juice, tumble drier?

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 03:57PM

loyatemu wrote: »

seems very high - what's using all the juice, tumble drier?

yeah it seems high to me, but my last house with the kids and all , was running at about 350 per billing , so about " right " per their calculations, now Im down at 80 a month on average , well below Energia predictions

cnocbui · 18-05-2017 04:03PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

We do have a.cost effective energy storage technology that could be rolled out more. We've had it since 1974.

Have a guess what it is?

Flooding the countryside is such a green solution.

18-05-2017 10:49PM

BoatMad wrote: »

As I have said and is borne out by the Tesla comment, cycles on Li have little effect on degradation, calendar life has more so

Hence a well used but relatively young powerwall, is actually better then a little used but older one. a little used Li battery that is old should have a lower resale battery then a well used younger one ( however this fact is often lost on people , who confuse usage with degradation )

Age is everything with LI

That's not what the makers of the cells say, yes calendar life will have an effect and also the charging currents and discharge currents and cycle life and including temperature.

A battery cell is usually rated to 70%, i.e 1000 cycles to 70% provided it's used within tolerance such as temperature and C rate.

A Tesla battery might not be impacted much by cycle life because it will rarely see a full cycle or close to full cycle very unlike a leaf owner or any other EV with 20-30 Kwh worth of storage.

BoatMad · 18-05-2017 11:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's not what the makers of the cells say, yes calendar life will have an effect and also the charging currents and discharge currents and cycle life and including temperature.

A battery cell is usually rated to 70%, i.e 1000 cycles to 70% provided it's used within tolerance such as temperature and C rate.

A Tesla battery might not be impacted much by cycle life because it will rarely see a full cycle or close to full cycle very unlike a leaf owner or any other EV with 20-30 Kwh worth of storage.

I really hate when you decend into battery specs cause its clear you have actually no engineering understanding of actually specifying and using Li Cells and I get forced to trawl the science again

Heres a typically 18650 spec https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/ICR18650NH-2200.pdf ( and before you say it , all Li is essentially the same within the chemical configuration , irrespective of size of battery)
Notice the only mention of charge discharge cycles , is 300 cycles must result in a greater then 80% retention in capacity , This is a typical spec, it does not mean that cycle life is specified, merely that its a test to prove the cell is functioning within spec.

It is not "rated to 70%, i.e 1000 cycles" its not that type of spec , you could find in this battery , that after 300 cycles, its at 95% , thats within spec

The fact remains , that as more and more life cycle knowledge builds up on high demand batteries, what you are finding is that warranties focus on Calendar Life and not on discharge recharge cycles or heat.

That doesnt mean these factors can be ignored but the data suggests that calendar life is a major factor and once the others remain within spec , they have less effect and this can be seen by changing warranties types away from usage and towards time.

This is borne out anecdotally , where high ,mileage Leafs, but over a relatively short lifetime , had very large mileages before they lost a bar, whereas other with much lower mileages but older cars lost bars on lower mileages

A Tesla battery might not be impacted much by cycle life because it will rarely see a full cycle or close to full cycle very unlike a leaf owner or any other EV with 20-30 Kwh worth of storage.

again studies show that mini cycles and major cycles has little difference in the degradation if Li cells, it doesnt really matter ( providing you avoid very low battery conditions, that you go from 100% to 30% or 70% to 30% in reality , th effect on life cycle is very limited often superseded by other effects

You need to see large format battery specs in the context of changing experiences based on usage patterns and data collection . YOU are seeing a move away from concern over usage cycles and more towards calendar life

( for example the Leaf warranty is not based on charge discharge cycles,)

cnocbui · 19-05-2017 10:15AM

BoatMad wrote: »

What a bizarre , uninformed and simply bonkets comment

Li-ion batteries start degrading and dying from the minute they are manufactured. Even if you don't use one at all it will typically have lost a significant proportion of it's capacity in 3 years. The only way to mitigate this, that I have come across, is to have them charged at about 50% capacity and then freeze them. Wholly impractical and of little point.

The trend for manufacturers, like Apple, to make Li-ion batteries not user replaceable seems like deliberate obsolescence, relying on the the failing capacity characteristic of Li batteries.

Have a look at the warranty for Tesla's much vaunted Powerwall:

In addition, this Limited Warranty does not cover (a) normal degradation of your Powerwall?s energy capacity over time

I wrote this on an 2012 Macbook Pro retina, which desperately needs a new battery, but at a replacement cost of 700 Euro in this country, I am rather put off. My previous Macbook had it's trackpad killed and was rendered dead by a Li battery that swelled.

If the constant degradation in capacity of Li batteries could be solved, they would be great. As it stands now, they are a PITA.

I think I am pretty well informed on Li batteries, thank you.

KCross · 19-05-2017 10:47AM

cnocbui wrote: »

Li-ion batteries start degrading and dying from the minute they are manufactured. Even if you don't use one at all it will typically have lost a significant proportion of it's capacity in 3 years.

What is your definition of significant?

Plenty of 3yr old EV's out there with very little degradation.

Electric Ireland solar panels & EV charging?

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