Electric Ireland solar panels & EV charging?

Waste of time, BoatMad has some engineering qualification and automatically makes him an expert in Li batteries. BS, My Brother has an engineering masters and would not declare himself an expert in Li batteries or talk down to others like BoatMad.

cnocbui

30-50% loss in capacity over 3 years seems not uncommon and would be a good fit for my own personal experince with 3 laptops and several phones.

How is the remaining capacity of these EV batteries being determined? By charging to full and driving till it stops moving and recording the distance or by relying on the instrument read-outs? If it's the latter - pffft!

I have a 2012 Nissan Leaf with under 36k miles and the "24 kwh" battery back only charges to 17 kWh at 100%. Nissan claims this is perfectly fine and have closed my case. First of all the LEAF's 24 kWh only charges to 22 kWh brand new. Does Tesla do this? Nissan guarantees you have at least 8 bars on the right hand side (there are two sets of bars if you look closely) not the actual percent degredation but what they do not tell you is that all bars are not equal. I have 11 bars even though I can only charge to 17 kWh. Nissan will not replace any battery that has 9 or more bars within 5 years regardless of how much charge it holds. The first bar won't come off until over 10-15% of the battery is gone. To lose 4 bars the battery needs to degrade to 50-60% of capacity but Nissan will not publish this. Nissan LEAF has an 8yr 100k mile battery warranty like Tesla that only covers complete failure. If you can drive any miles theres no warranty issue. I am also not in a hot climate and I store the car in a garage that stays near room temp. So let's accept that no electric car really guarantees against degredation.

The bars on the left also aren't equal. From 12 bars to 2 bars is only 70% of the 17 kwh I have or 12 kwh. The last 2 bars have 30% of the kWh which adds to range anxiety. All bars should be equal for range or warranty. Its deceptive to switch between a top heavy or bottom heavy scale when it fits Nissan's agenda.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096801_tesla-model-s-battery-life-how-much-range-loss-for-electric-car-over-time

DrPhilG

cnocbui wrote: »

How is the remaining capacity of these EV batteries being determined? By charging to full and driving till it stops moving and recording the distance or by relying on the instrument read-outs? If it's the latter - pffft!

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096801_tesla-model-s-battery-life-how-much-range-loss-for-electric-car-over-time

I have a 3 year old Leaf and according to the LeafSpy reports I'm at about 92% state of health. That's not the car's on screen display, it's taken from a bluetooth adaptor connected to the OBD port.

More importantly, I've been driving it myself for 2 of those 3 years and I'm still getting the same range now that I did when I started.

KCross

cnocbui wrote: »

30-50% loss in capacity over 3 years seems not uncommon and would be a good fit for my own personal experince with 3 laptops and several phones.

How is the remaining capacity of these EV batteries being determined? By charging to full and driving till it stops moving and recording the distance or by relying on the instrument read-outs? If it's the latter - pffft!

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096801_tesla-model-s-battery-life-how-much-range-loss-for-electric-car-over-time

I think its largely understood that you cant compare a laptop battery to an EV battery.

I've seen some terrible phone batteries too but EV's don't seem to degrade at the same rate. I'm no battery expert but presumably the chemistries involved in the larger EV packs and better battery management systems have enabled them to survive longer.

Significant degradation after 3 years is just not happening in the EV world. There are two main ways to determine that.... range achieved from a charge and in the case of the Leaf the use of the LeafSpy app.

A survey of UK users is graphed here, see the graphs in the first post:
https://speakev.com/threads/the-batt...-thread.18923/


EDIT: Your own greencarreports link even agrees that significant degradation isn't happening particularly on the newer batteries (2013+)

Yeah batteries are improving due to chemistry changes and increased cycle life, resistance to heat etc etc and perhaps even calendar life and also the fact that when batteries provide enough range that even 20-30% degradation won't be nearly as much of an issue as it is on the much smaller batteries of today's gen non teslas.

zilog_jones

KCross wrote: »

I've seen some terrible phone batteries too but EV's don't seem to degrade at the same rate. I'm no battery expert but presumably the chemistries involved in the larger EV packs and better battery management systems have enabled them to survive longer.

I'm no expert either, but one big difference here is in a laptop you may only have around 3-6 cells, whereas you have like 192 cells in a 24 kWh Leaf. This means there is a lot more redundancy in an EV battery pack, and larger tolerances.

cnocbui

DrPhilG wrote: »

I have a 3 year old Leaf and according to the LeafSpy reports I'm at about 92% state of health. That's not the car's on screen display, it's taken from a bluetooth adaptor connected to the OBD port.

More importantly, I've been driving it myself for 2 of those 3 years and I'm still getting the same range now that I did when I started.

That certainly sounds a bit more promising.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Waste of time, BoatMad has some engineering qualification and automatically makes him an expert in Li batteries. BS, My Brother has an engineering masters and would not declare himself an expert in Li batteries or talk down to others like BoatMad.

Worked ten years in battery related designs in all chemistries , last five years in Li

28 years in embedded design. Hardware software
Defence , car and engine assembly robotics , automate. Guided vehicles , logistics tracking devices gsm etc.

Graduate and post graduate qualification in electronic engineering

Again you attack the person ,but you consistently avoid presenting any science to back up your arguments. You re-reguritate out of date " populism " largely promoted by certain sections of the media largely mis understanding Li tech

Cycle life plays a part , but the major factor in Li degradation. In calander life

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

I think its largely understood that you cant compare a laptop battery to an EV battery.

I've seen some terrible phone batteries too but EV's don't seem to degrade at the same rate. I'm no battery expert but presumably the chemistries involved in the larger EV packs and better battery management systems have enabled them to survive longer.

Significant degradation after 3 years is just not happening in the EV world. There are two main ways to determine that.... range achieved from a charge and in the case of the Leaf the use of the LeafSpy app.

A survey of UK users is graphed here, see the graphs in the first post:
https://speakev.com/threads/the-batt...-thread.18923/


EDIT: Your own greencarreports link even agrees that significant degradation isn't happening particularly on the newer batteries (2013+)

Firstly mobile devices tend to be the highest power density chemistries

These typically have the shortest calander life and they are typically very price sensitive, hence cheaply made


In EVs this is not the case.

Mobile devices also are subjected to far greater discharges then EVs , that doesn't help either

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Worked ten years in battery related designs in all chemistries , last five years in Li

28 years in embedded design. Hardware software
Defence , car and engine assembly robotics , automate. Guided vehicles , logistics tracking devices gsm etc.

Graduate and post graduate qualification in electronic engineering

Again you attack the person ,but you consistently avoid presenting any science to back up your arguments. You re-reguritate out of date " populism " largely promoted by certain sections of the media largely mis understanding Li tech

Cycle life plays a part , but the major factor in Li degradation. In calander life

If you are a low mileage then yes, cycle life will be the greatest reason for capacity loss, if you're a high mileage driver then cycling will be the greatest contributing factor.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you are a low mileage then yes, cycle life will be the greatest reason for capacity loss, if you're a high mileage driver then cycling will be the greatest contributing factor.

This is patently not true in the general case. In reality unless you are charging multiple times a day every day , the calendar life degradation is likely to still dominate.

This is why you have low calander life high mileage leafs without bar loss , but the opposite is the case with bar loss

Again this is because parasitic action is the greatest factor in degradation ( outside out of spec usage or charging patterns )

Don't forget that the original leaf battery was the most sensitive of all chemistry to heat. So someone who fast charged a lot suffered greater degradation, there are many other factors , calendar life is just one.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Don't forget that the original leaf battery was the most sensitive of all chemistry to heat. So someone who fast charged a lot suffered greater degradation, there are many other factors , calendar life is just one.

But that data was mainly from the US from very high ambients and was more.a design fault that took the battery out of spec ( as well as a Li-ion composition that was more sensitive to temperature excursions outside the spec )

Remain within spec and calander life remains the predominant factor in degradation

I will accept that certain chemistries trade power density for cycle life ( LiCo being the obvious ) but this is not typical of EV batteries

One of the common issues with Li has been design engineers unfamiliarity with the precise charging and discharging specifications and ensuring the systems remain within that spec. This was the issue behind early Li failures

goz83

I posted a video in a thread yesterday. This bit is relevant to the topic being discussed I think. Skip to 33:05 for the dendrite bit, but it's worth a couple of minutes to watch the segment. The future of EV batteries perhaps?

beepers

I am looking to buy a TESLA 3 (when available). To go with this I have been investigating the possibilities of solar / battery power. Day time use car (depleting car battery), and solar charging garage battery (weather dependent). Night time charge car from garage battery. Have found two options. 1. TESLA Powerwall and solar panels. 2. MOIXA solar panels and battery. I gather both these need to be grid connected.

Why would you go to the huge expense when you can charge for as little as 6.5 Cent per Kwh on night rate ?

Spend some money instead and upgrade your single phase supply instead and install a 7 Kw charge point.

By the time you start to make some money on this your battery might not provide the power you need.....

I would wait for the possibility of a feed-in-tariff and then the Grid will become your gigantic unlimited "free" battery!

Gumbo

The problem with waiting for a FIT, is that it will increase the price of these systems imo.

That's quite possible, it will also mean a lot of dodgy installers that will try to rip us off.

If there's ever a grant then that will encourage these installers to install more also.

antoinolachtnai

If there is a feed-in tariff (as opposed to being paid market price), and you have already installed your PV, don't expect to benefit from the FIT. The purpose of the FIT would be to encourage more people to install PV, not to pay people who have already had it installed.

unkel

antoinolachtnai wrote:

If there is a feed-in tariff (as opposed to being paid market price), and you have already installed your PV, don't expect to benefit from the FIT. The purpose of the FIT would be to encourage more people to install PV, not to pay people who have already had it installed.

I doubt they can establish if you already had pv or not?

antoinolachtnai

unkel wrote: »

I doubt they can establish if you already had pv or not?

Satellite photo is one way. Another is that they can look at the receipt for the equipment. if someone used advantage of the Home Renovation Incentive, got a grant from SEAI or got an EEOS payment from an energy supplier it will be pretty obvious. Also, they will know from the date on your certificate from the electrician.

ethernet

unkel wrote: »

I doubt they can establish if you already had pv or not?

Wouldn't it have been registered as per the regulations - at least if you're still on the grid?

I'd imagine if connected to the grid the ESB would be aware, as far as I'm aware you have to apply to connect to the grid, I doubt anyone can just connect at will to the grid.

unkel

I think that's all a bit paranoid. And it would be mean & counterproductive. FIT is not just to encourage new pv installs. Its also to take pressure of the grid, even to decrease the electricity the state has to produce

I'd say if we get fit, everyone will get it

antoinolachtnai

These are just the typical rules for a FIT.

The sole purpose of a FIT is to encourage new installs. Paying a FIT to existing installs is just a waste of money, a 'deadweight loss' as the economists call it. It won't do anything to take pressure off the grid. PV does not take pressure off the grid in general terms.

unkel

Can't agree. FIT for all would mean current pv owners might get rid of silly ridiculously inefficient yokes like immersion diverters (do anything rather than give free lecky to the grid, right?)

Or relax their regime running everything during the day, instead run at night and give valuable daytime lecky back to the grid for fit compensation

Double whammy everyone wins

antoinolachtnai

Summertime daytime lecky is worth damn-all. The SEM marginal cost today was 27 euros a MWh. Even if you add on the distribution and transmission, that's still only 77 euros a MWh.

The reason the price is so low appears to be imports on the interconnector of cheap PV from GB and Europe. There is a lot of it around. There is no real market for it.

It might actually be better use of money to subsidise people to use as much of this cheap green electricity during the day as possible, rather than incentivising them to generate even more of it.

unkel

Ha! That's another issue altogether. We're overrun now with renewables are we because our neighbours are years ahead of us? And we import their lecky cheaply? I read somewhere that Scotland is planning to have 100% renewable lecky by 2020. Seems very ambitious but surely if they can do it within a few years, it's also very doable for us within a few years more. We have far better solar potential

Extremely cheap fully renewable leccy will be with us all within a decade?

Fire up a few gas stations on very cold overcast days in winter is all the fossil we need going forward?

All our eggs are in one basket, at peak wind capacity we generate 65% of out total Peak electricity from wind energy, however on calm days could be 5% so there's a huge imbalance and this is where solar PV can greatly add to the renewable mix.

The max the grid can take is 65% and 70% in 2018.

antoinolachtnai

unkel wrote: »

Ha! That's another issue altogether. We're overrun now with renewables are we because our neighbours are years ahead of us? And we import their lecky cheaply? I read somewhere that Scotland is planning to have 100% renewable lecky by 2020. Seems very ambitious but surely if they can do it within a few years, it's also very doable for us within a few years more. We have far better solar potential

Extremely cheap fully renewable leccy will be with us all within a decade?

Fire up a few gas stations on very cold overcast days in winter is all the fossil we need going forward?

How do the Scottish plan to do that on calm nights?

It isn't cheap. The producers of power are being paid a much higher feed-in tariff for this electricity. They need this much higher feed-in tariff to justify the capital expenditure.

I am not saying it isn't good value by the way. I am just saying that you should not expect 'cheap' electricity. Electricity will have a 'low marginal cost' but that is not the same as 'cheap'.

As you point out, you need to pay not only for the capital costs of the PV and wind, but also for the equivalent volume of gas plants.

Unless you can manage demand somehow. That's really the key.