Electric Ireland solar panels & EV charging?

gizmo555

Electric Ireland has recently started to offer domestic PV solar panels:

https://www.electricireland.ie/residential/products/smarter-living/solar-pv

Including a diverter, which automatically uses any generated power to heat water if there's no other demand for electricity in the house at any given time, the cost is about EUR 5,000.

Would it be a runner to use the diverter to charge an EV instead of heating water?

unkel

Yes you can. Your EV would have to be at home and plugged in at the brightest hours of the day for it to be any use.

€5k is a ridiculous price for a 1.5kW system though...

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Yes you can. Your EV would have to be at home and plugged in at the brightest hours of the day for it to be any use.

€5k is a ridiculous price for a 1.5kW system though...

I even looked at this via DIY panels and offline non synched MPPT inverters, still didn't make any financial sense , I either generated electricity when I had no use for it , or didnt have it when I needed it . I even looked at adding some Li Ferrous CALB large prismatics batteries into the mix, ( I have a few) . even that didnt really help


its needs FIT and without it , especially in Ireland, its a joke

Shefwedfan

I got price for under 5k for 2kW(8 panel) system from Solar Electric

I think the Electric Ireland offer is a joke. Some points:

• You need to be customer to use the HP option.
• If you move to Electric Ireland for this offer I would guess you don't get discounts you normally would if moving provider
• I talked to Electric Ireland before about this and they wanted people who take it up to show they have the ability to pay there bills over a period of time. So don't expect to move and sign up unless it has changed
• 5 euro extra per month for an app??? FFS
• You will end up pushing electricity back into grid, you are not getting any payback for this from Electric Ireland. SO they are taking your excess power and selling it on but you are paying them for it?????

I would look at Irish EV Owners Association offer of 10% off SolarElectric.ie

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I got price for under 5k for 2kW(8 panel) system from Solar Electric

Still far too expensive.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I would look at Irish EV Owners Association offer of 10% off SolarElectric.ie

Yeah, we all got spammed with that, thank you IEVOA. Nothing on the link to actual deals, actual prices, etc. :rolleyes:

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

I even looked at this via DIY panels and offline non synched MPPT inverters, still didn't make any financial sense , I either generated electricity when I had no use for it , or didnt have it when I needed it . I even looked at adding some Li Ferrous CALB large prismatics batteries into the mix, ( I have a few) . even that didnt really help


its needs FIT and without it , especially in Ireland, its a joke

Yep true enough, it won't make financial sense. But I would still be interested. Even if the pay back time is long. Every little help to make this world a bit better, etc. I might just go ahead and hope a FIT will come.

I will pay a fair price for supply & fit, but I won't be getting myself overcharged though.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Yep true enough, it won't make financial sense. But I would still be interested. Even if the pay back time is long. Every little help to make this world a bit better, etc. I might just go ahead and hope a FIT will come.

I will pay a fair price for supply & fit, but I won't be getting myself overcharged though.

at the time I had some big Kyocera panels off a boat project , but the system never really made sense. The panels were at their best when I was on me boat , and the house was locked up , worse when I needed heat (i.e. the winter)

without a way to time shift the energy , its all but useless

listermint

Still think people are incredibly hung up on fit. It may come it may not come the pay off will be longer.

But the luxury of not being utterly reliant on electric bills and not worrying about putting your electric hogging devices on standby or being knocked off when you are not there is vast. Coupled with heating water.

It will pay off it will take more time and you won't be impacted by jumps in energy prices.

Comfort can make sense

BoatMad

listermint wrote: »

Still think people are incredibly hung up on fit. It may come it may not come the pay off will be longer.

But the luxury of not being utterly reliant on electric bills and not worrying about putting your electric hogging devices on standby or being knocked off when you are not there is vast. Coupled with heating water.

It will pay off it will take more time and you won't be impacted by jumps in energy prices.

Comfort can make sense

leaving aside the "off the grid " crazies etc , I dont see where you are coming from here

currently there is NO pay off, in any reasonable understanding of the word , and secondly the technology is not capable of removing your dependance on the grid ( in any normal circumstance )

But the luxury of not being utterly reliant on electric bills and not worrying about putting your electric hogging devices on standby or being knocked off when you are not there is vast. Coupled with heating water.

sorry, you just propose to leave stuff on , " because you can " , wow that must be the most bizarre justification Ive ever heard

i wash my clothes for 16 cents a night and dishes for 8 cents a night , these are singularly ( after the EV ) the greatest hoggers, Il be a long time affording a €10K installation !!!!!

as for hot water, I hear this repeatedly, we use no hot water from storage systems at all, hand water is instantaneously heated as required as is shower water ( running costs are virtually so low as to be negligible )

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Still far too expensive.



Yeah, we all got spammed with that, thank you IEVOA. Nothing on the link to actual deals, actual prices, etc. :rolleyes:

8 panels is under 5k that will generate 2kW
12 panels is under 6k that will generate 3kW

Depending on 10% off I would be looking at 5.5k for the 12 panels.
You can also claim the VAT back on HRI so that would leave the 12 panel at close to 5k

The 8 panel would be maybe 3.5k give or take.

They are saying with 12 panel I will save circa 600 euro per year. So 9 years before I have paid them off more or less.

With the 8 panel it would be 400 per year.

I know everyone says XYZ is too expensive but point me in direction of some company doing it cheaper and I will sign up tomorrow.

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

8 panels is under 5k that will generate 2kW
12 panels is under 6k that will generate 3kW

Depending on 10% off I would be looking at 5.5k for the 12 panels.
You can also claim the VAT back on HRI so that would leave the 12 panel at close to 5k

The 8 panel would be maybe 3.5k give or take.

They are saying with 12 panel I will save circa 600 euro per year. So 9 years before I have paid them off more or less.

With the 8 panel it would be 400 per year.

I know everyone says XYZ is too expensive but point me in direction of some company doing it cheaper and I will sign up tomorrow.

Has the HRI been extended from 2016 re the VAT ?

BoatMad

I would look at Irish EV Owners Association offer of 10% off SolarElectric.ie[/QUOTE]


I notice SolarElectric make this claim on their worked examples

"A smart meter is installed by ESB to track power used in the house, which allows for the power to be sold back to the grid."

this is a mis truth

Shefwedfan

BoatMad wrote: »

Has the HRI been extended from 2016 re the VAT ?

According to Electric Ireland and Solar it is

I also need to get a fence installed and the contractor said about HRI

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

8 panels is under 5k that will generate 2kW
12 panels is under 6k that will generate 3kW

Depending on 10% off I would be looking at 5.5k for the 12 panels.
You can also claim the VAT back on HRI so that would leave the 12 panel at close to 5k

The 8 panel would be maybe 3.5k give or take.

They are saying with 12 panel I will save circa 600 euro per year. So 9 years before I have paid them off more or less.

With the 8 panel it would be 400 per year.

I know everyone says XYZ is too expensive but point me in direction of some company doing it cheaper and I will sign up tomorrow.

DIY I can get 4Kwp for about 3-4K , plus installation hardware and solar regulator/invertor

the main problem is I have nowhere for the damm electricity to go !!!!

Shefwedfan

BoatMad wrote: »

DIY I can get 4Kwp for about 3-4K , plus installation hardware and solar regulator/invertor

the main problem is I have nowhere for the damm electricity to go !!!!

DIY I would probably electrocute myself or blow something up :P:P

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

DIY I would probably electrocute myself or blow something up :P:P

its actually very simple , the panels themselves are low voltage and the odd belt of mains never did anyone any harm!!

its much simpler then ,many think , especially for a ground or flat roof install, the stuff is mainly all off the shelf stuff

listermint

BoatMad wrote: »

leaving aside the "off the grid " crazies etc , I dont see where you are coming from here

currently there is NO pay off, in any reasonable understanding of the word , and secondly the technology is not capable of removing your dependance on the grid ( in any normal circumstance )



sorry, you just propose to leave stuff on , " because you can " , wow that must be the most bizarre justification Ive ever heard

i wash my clothes for 16 cents a night and dishes for 8 cents a night , these are singularly ( after the EV ) the greatest hoggers, Il be a long time affording a €10K installation !!!!!

as for hot water, I hear this repeatedly, we use no hot water from storage systems at all, hand water is instantaneously heated as required as is shower water ( running costs are virtually so low as to be negligible )

Crazies off grid? Where did I say off grid. ...

You comprehend the term not reliant I presume. Well I have to presume because most of your posts seem to be thought out.

Your assertion that you can never get an ROI is drivel I'd love to go into details but I won't because you Claimed and install is 10k so there's not point in engaging with that because it's not factual.

So far they only element of craziness is your maths and also your focus solely on fit

listermint

BoatMad wrote: »

DIY I can get 4Kwp for about 3-4K , plus installation hardware and solar regulator/invertor

the main problem is I have nowhere for the damm electricity to go !!!!

Into your house.

If you can get that sort of money on install it's paying itself in 3 to 4 years..

sunny2004

Im new to this so forgive me my stupidity, but is there no viable option for using solar power domestically in this country ?

listermint

sunny2004 wrote: »

Im new to this so forgive me my stupidity, but is there no viable option for using solar power domestically in this country ?

Yes there is. But you can't sell additional power to the supplier grid.it just goes into it.

This is the current case it may change it may not.

So the onus would be to use that power in your home

goz83

sunny2004 wrote: »

Im new to this so forgive me my stupidity, but is there no viable option for using solar power domestically in this country ?

Certainly if you're home all day and using the power generated. The one I am considering is thermodynamics, because I know it will at least heat the water we need, but I am not even convinced by that tech.

BoatMad

listermint wrote: »

Into your house.

If you can get that sort of money on install it's paying itself in 3 to 4 years..

not a chance , my bill is 80 a month and that includes 625 units on average at night rate for the EV per month

since I cant time shift the energy , what use is 4kWp in the middle of a summers day , when the house is locked up

the house uses 1 units per 12 hours quiescent ( mainly the fridge and a few computers ( well about 20 computing devices ! running continuously ) thats upto 3kWp capacity sitting there wasted, yet its not enough when the full loads arrive ( nor when the sun isnt shining )

I simply cant use the generated power !

BoatMad

sunny2004 wrote: »

Im new to this so forgive me my stupidity, but is there no viable option for using solar power domestically in this country ?

I dont believe there is at this point in time due to the lack of FIT and the expense of batteries to allow you to time shift the energy produced

listermint

BoatMad wrote: »

not a chance , my bill is 80 a month and that includes 625 units on average at night rate for the EV per month

since I cant time shift the energy , what use is 4kWp in the middle of a summers day , when the house is locked up

the house uses 1 units per 12 hours quiescent ( mainly the fridge and a few computers ( well about 20 computing devices ! running continuously )

I simply cant use the generated power !

Well then your not really the ideal person for it at all families would be. Your usage is tiny.

listermint

BoatMad wrote: »

I dont believe there is at this point in time due to the lack of FIT and the expense of batteries to allow you to time shift the energy produced

For you.


Be clearer with posters who don't fully understand it.

BoatMad

listermint wrote: »

For you.


Be clearer with posters who don't fully understand it.

I cant see any situation where the installation makes financial sense without FIT for anyone , no costs analysis I seen provides for returns in under 10 years and even those are widely over egged.

people here are talking about 20 year breakevens on complex installs ( batteries etc ) . thats just madness

dont get me wrong , Im a great fan of the tech, and I have a technically awesome setup on the boat , but thats different

listermint

BoatMad wrote: »

I cant see any situation where the installation makes financial sense without FIT for anyone , no costs analysis I seen provides for returns in under 10 years and even those are widely over egged.

people here are talking about 20 year breakevens on complex installs ( batteries etc ) . thats just madness

The definition of madness is focusing on 1 fact. Fit.

Then making that fact fit into everyone elses life. You clearly don't have a bunch of kids or large energy needs during the day therefore as I said it makes no sense to you.

And to state that a 5k install will take 20 years to pay back for a family described above is a fallacy.

Stop putting everyone else into your box because not everyone fits in it.

Good.luck

Shefwedfan

Regarding HRI

Finance (No 2) Act 2013 and Finance Act 2014 provide for a Home Renovation Incentive (HRI) Scheme, which will run from 25 October 2013 to 31 December 2018 for Homeowners and from 15 October 2014 to 31 December 2018 for Landlords

BoatMad

listermint wrote: »

The definition of madness is focusing on 1 fact. Fit.

Then making that fact fit into everyone elses life. You clearly don't have a bunch of kids or large energy needs during the day therefore as I said it makes no sense to you.

And to state that a 5k install will take 20 years to pay back for a family described above is a fallacy.

Stop putting everyone else into your box because not everyone fits in it.

Good.luck

I think you mistake my argument , you have not provided any facts , yet I have tried to present some , directly relevant to me.

I have monitored my house consumption electronically since 1995 over three houses , ( with kids house cleaners, live in au-pairs etc etc all using electricity )

I still see no serious justification based on acknowledge engineering data ( and not wishful thinking ) that suggests that Solar PV of any reasonable size ( i.e. 4Kwp and up ) makes any financial sense in the current regulatory and price point market


Because I develop software for this market , ( mostly for Uk /German ) I have a serious interest in it. But FIT is the key driver ( and was responsible for the massive takeoff in Germany , so much that they had to scale it back )

. If you have alternative data, or you seriously think 20 years is an acceptable payback , then lets debate it , rather then you just using short sentences to dismiss my personal experience and my knowledge

KCross

listermint wrote: »

The definition of madness is focusing on 1 fact. Fit.

Then making that fact fit into everyone elses life. You clearly don't have a bunch of kids or large energy needs during the day therefore as I said it makes no sense to you.

And to state that a 5k install will take 20 years to pay back for a family described above is a fallacy.

Stop putting everyone else into your box because not everyone fits in it.

Good.luck

Not sure which one of you is right but I haven't seen worked examples showing it payback in reasonable timeframes either.

Do you have numbers that show it working. Can you share?

BoatMad

listermint wrote: »

Crazies off grid? Where did I say off grid. ...

You comprehend the term not reliant I presume. Well I have to presume because most of your posts seem to be thought out.

Your assertion that you can never get an ROI is drivel I'd love to go into details but I won't because you Claimed and install is 10k so there's not point in engaging with that because it's not factual.

So far they only element of craziness is your maths and also your focus solely on fit

why would their be any concern to be reliant on the grid . Theres no argument down that road.

I met with a solar installer last week, a competitive fully installed system was 10K ( and yes I think he was too expensive ) , he claimed he could save it over 10 years (he started out saying 6 )

we worked through the maths , as i demolished each assumption he made, its became clear that most of this industry is quite frankly hood winking people ( rather like wood pellets did )

FIT is the key , because the primary problem is that energy consumption in most houses rises in the winter , rises at night and at times when solar panels are not producing peak output

The alternative is a big battery bank , but that just moves the ROI even further away and batteries in reality are simply over coming the absence of a feed in tariff , and in that respects are completely dead money ( there is some argument for high power EV charging )

Shefwedfan

You have to think is it right for you. Personally if I go with it I am aware I will also need to invest in more electrical devices.

Ok so I have moved to electric car but second car would need to also try and make sure of it, so maybe a PHEV or something till decent 7 seater electric is available.

Tractor lawnmower would need to go and replace with robomower.
Have one power shower from immersion and then 2 Triton showers, would need to replace the 2 x triton and try and replace with Power shower
Things like strimmers etc see if can replace with decent electric versions

All of this of course would mean that Solar would pay itself off quicker but it also costs a lot to replace all these items with electric versions.

listermint

KCross wrote: »

Not sure which one of you is right but I haven't seen worked examples showing it payback in reasonable timeframes either.

Do you have numbers that show it working. Can you share?

Why ? All I have seen is paybacks over 10 years.

20 years ? For what something with a Tesla wall.

Go research it .

For someone who is super interested in solar and supposedly writes software for solar and had never bothered self installing any level of solar it's perplexing boatmad.

Why should I bother going posting research when you are firing out 10 k installs and 20 year plus paybacks.

Sorry your facts request will be given the same credence as the facts your subscribe to.

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

Still far too expensive.



Yeah, we all got spammed with that, thank you IEVOA. Nothing on the link to actual deals, actual prices, etc. :rolleyes:

And when you call them, the company don't bother calling you back!

Shefwedfan

To resolve the issue

http://www.ecoevolution.ie/wind-energy.html

listermint

Shefwedfan wrote: »

To resolve the issue

http://www.ecoevolution.ie/wind-energy.html

But sure they won't buy it off you when generated and something something crazies off grid.

Why would you pay for any solar PV array to end up dumping the majority of the electricity generated ?

You'll generate far too much than you can use int he brighter months and have far too little in the darker months.

With Solar panels under 1 USD per Watt, I would find that extremely expensive even given inverters labour etc.

at 17C/day and 8 C/night and no FIT Solar PV is ridiculously expensive.

Here are some facts, we, family of 4, granted the two Children, 2 Boys aged nearly 1.5 and just gone 3 are not requiring much energy (apart from my mental and physical energy ) at this point but still, average is (was in the old house) around 15.5 Kwh/day. Or 5,500 Per year. Probably more since we moved, larger house, well pump, pump on the Septic tank, now have dishwasher etc and my energy monitor isn't working atm.

Anyway, 5,600 Kwh per year for car and house (old house)

According to some solar PV calculators I would need 6.6 Kwp to deliver this energy per year but the contrast in generated power varies considerably, for instance I would generate an Average of 190 Kwh in December to 801 Kwh in July .

Break that down to daily energy would be 6.3 Kwh in December and 26.7 Kwh in July. Now these are averages and any one day can have more or less.

So if I generate 26.7 Kwh daily in July I then have to dump 11.5 Kwh. What a waste. On days I work nights I can charge the car during the day when I'm in bed. But I would still have an excess.

So the FIT is really the only sane way to go with Solar PV, provided you get (after tax) what you pay for day rate which is unlikely given that's a lot more than what ESBN pay for it commercially. So most likely, the tax payer will pay for it and the cost of electricity goes up. Or at least if we got the night rate cost of electricity after tax then at least you get at night what you pay during the day which would be a big deal for most EV owners who naturally charge at night at the cheaper rate.

We are many years away from where battery energy gets cheap enough to justify it.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here are some facts, we, family of 4, granted the two Children, 2 Boys aged nearly 1.5 and just gone 3 are not requiring much energy (apart from my mental and physical energy ) at this point but still, average is (was in the old house) around 15.5 Kwh/day. Or 5,500 Per year. Probably more since we moved, larger house, well pump, pump on the Septic tank, now have dishwasher etc and my energy monitor isn't working atm.

Anyway, 5,600 Kwh per year for car and house (old house)

According to some solar PV calculators I would need 6.6 Kwp to deliver this energy per year but the contrast in generated power varies considerably, for instance I would generate an Average of 190 Kwh in December to 801 Kwh in July .

Break that down to daily energy would be 6.3 Kwh in December and 26.7 Kwh in July. Now these are averages and any one day can have more or less.

So if I generate 26.7 Kwh daily in July I then have to dump 11.5 Kwh. What a waste. On days I work nights I can charge the car during the day when I'm in bed. But I would still have an excess.

So the FIT is really the only sane way to go with Solar PV, provided you get (after tax) what you pay for day rate which is unlikely given that's a lot more than what ESBN pay for it commercially. So most likely, the tax payer will pay for it and the cost of electricity goes up. Or at least if we got the night rate cost of electricity after tax then at least you get at night what you pay during the day which would be a big deal for most EV owners who naturally charge at night at the cheaper rate.

We are many years away from where battery energy gets cheap enough to justify it.

Get a smaller array , it would half your ESB bills. It's not always about over generation as much as people try to make it be

MaceFace

For those of us who would like to lower our energy costs but don't really have a clue about this, is there any company offering any product (small or large) that would be considered a worthwhile investment?

Let's assume we are talking about an average family - similar to Mad_Lad...

cnocbui

If solar panels can be viable in Ireland, just imagine how much more viable they would be in Australia? I think the winters too long and dark, personally.

The pay back period for SPV systems in Oz is just a bit over two years, I believe.

reboot

Shefwedfan wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

DIY I can get 4Kwp for about 3-4K , plus installation hardware and solar regulator/invertor

the main problem is I have nowhere for the damm electricity to go !!!!

DIY I would probably electrocute myself or blow something up :P:P

Some say that my EV will only accept a charge of at least 10 amps, nothing below this, that's a lot to expect from solar, and makes no financial sense?

antoinolachtnai

The problem with FIT tariffs and all the rest of it is that intermittent solar power generated during summer is worth very little. There is little demand for it and supply on the grid is going to outstrip demand across Europe as more PV comes on stream.

cros13

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The problem with FIT tariffs and all the rest of it is that intermittent solar power generated during summer is worth very little. There is little demand for it and supply on the grid is going to outstrip demand across Europe as more PV comes on stream.

Sure... but we're getting to the point where unsubsidised solar is viable in most european markets (including the UK), so that's unstoppable.

What needs to be addressed is a plan to manage the transition from CCGT to renewables, possibly one that includes temporary subsidies for grid scale battery, pumped hydro and existing CCGT because all that summer excess is going to hit the bottom line of the CCGT operators when we still need them to handle the winter trough.

DrPhilG

Edit

antoinolachtnai

The general problem is that it is more economic to put up a big turbine than a load of small turbines. The reason is that so much groundwork si required to secure a turbine to the ground, even a small one. You might as well build a big one while you are at it. The overall expense is obviously greater for a big one, but the cost per kW is much lower.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Get a smaller array , it would half your ESB bills. It's not always about over generation as much as people try to make it be

Smaller array has the same issue, I don't want to pay for solar PV and have to dump most of the energy, the pay back would take many years longer. We only need so much hot water and compared to petrol/diesel having EV saves far more money anyway.

BoatMad

MaceFace wrote: »

For those of us who would like to lower our energy costs but don't really have a clue about this, is there any company offering any product (small or large) that would be considered a worthwhile investment?

Let's assume we are talking about an average family - similar to Mad_Lad...

It depends on what you regard as a reasonable period to get a return on your investment.

antoinolachtnai

Well, the best returns are on the cheapest things, in particular draught proofing and insulation. After that, a boiler upgrade might be worthwhile. If your house is well insulated and gas is not available, a heat pump might be an option. If you use a lot of hot water, a well insulated hot water cylinder and some sort of solar water heating might make sense, and this could be PV panels with excess diverted as heat to your hot tank. If you had the heat pump, it could run off the PV.

Shefwedfan

MaceFace wrote: »

For those of us who would like to lower our energy costs but don't really have a clue about this, is there any company offering any product (small or large) that would be considered a worthwhile investment?

Let's assume we are talking about an average family - similar to Mad_Lad...

It depends on your house. I have just completed my second renovation. I learned a few things from the first and ironed the majority of them out.....there is small changes and then large changes you can make which make a difference....

Any of those companies you get in will give you a report which will point to the 2-3 things they can sell or they have agreement with another company to resell...

What type of house you live in? when was it built?

PM me more info if you want and I might be able to give you some ideas......

reboot

Just to get back to EV solar charging, sorry if I've already posted this, but I can't find it. I've read that my EV will only start to charge, above 10 amps, that's a lot to expect from solar, and expensive?