Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why would it not be both?

There is some evidence that he was abusive and I'm not discounting that. There is no evidence that he dabbled in murder before this so it's fairly clear that to go from zero murderous experience to entire familial murder suicide, without any kind of psychotic break is highly unlikely.

Domestic violence tends to escalate over time, hence the increased risk of being murdered by your partner if you are in an abusive relationship. There are other red flags that indicate future homicide, such as strangulation incidents. So its not really going from zero to murder in these cases, it's going from various forms of abuse and violence to murder and isn't usually the result of a "psychotic break"

Of course, we don't know for sure but personally my feeling is that he was abusive. And honestly, going by previous family killings, this would seem most likely. According to what I've read, in this kind of murder, something usually happens to set the killer off - stuff like discovering their wife is leaving, limited access to their kids, losing a job/status etc. Perhaps the inquest will reveal more.

No one is "slagging him off". Raising awareness of these issues in Ireland and discussing them could very well prevent another instance of it happening again. What's wrong with that?

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Perhaps the inquest will reveal more.

The Coroner's job is not to satisfy everyone's curiosity. This is an open-and-shut case - 4 wrongful deaths + 1 suicide, done.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Domestic violence tends to escalate over time, hence the increased risk of being murdered by your partner if you are in an abusive relationship. There are other red flags that indicate future homicide, such as strangulation incidents. So its not really going from zero to murder in these cases, it's going from various forms of abuse and violence to murder and isn't usually the result of a "psychotic break"

Of course, we don't know for sure but personally my feeling is that he was abusive. And honestly, going by previous family killings, this would seem most likely. According to what I've read, in this kind of murder, something usually happens to set the killer off - stuff like discovering their wife is leaving, limited access to their kids, losing a job/status etc. Perhaps the inquest will reveal more.

No one is "slagging him off". Raising awareness of these issues in Ireland and discussing them could very well prevent another instance of it happening again. What's wrong with that?

Escalation in domestic violence could account for it. It would be unlikely yo account got the escalation from being unreported to authorities and even being undetectable even to the victims closest family. Then jumping straight to murdeting the entire family and himself. I'd say it's hard to jump from A to B without other factors with the ability to cause a huge escalation in behaviour, such as a psychotic break.

I'd welcome the inquest to get to the bottom of it and learn from it. Anything that can reduce the chances of these things happening again, is good. Closing minds to any cause, for the sake of getting outraged, doesn't serve anyone except adding to the general sense of outrage.

And lots of posters are slagging him off. That's clear for a blind man to see. Calling him a waste of air etc, doesn't serve anyone. Not the victims in this case or any potential future victims

I always think it's important to hear the facts at an inquest about what happened. I don't know will the public find out all the details tough.
I know it's a totally different situation but I'm aware of a road accident and a thread featured on Boards about it at the tine and it was discussed on radio stations. I know somebody who was a witness and ended up being a witness at court and they heard all the details of what happened. None of these things were mentioned by people online tough. It was all just very black and white.(I'm not defending him for a second)

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Can I ask, what is the evidence that he didn't have a psychotic break? Is it because of the notes he left?

From my reading on it, yes. Psychotic episodes are usually sudden onset and brought on by the brain deciding it can't deal with reality any more, or drugs. Symptoms can include hallucinations, delusions, and the inability to tell reality from fantasy. As far as I can tell the fact that he had the presence of mind to write notes does not tie in with having a psychotic break.

Absolutely broke my heart that they were ever laid to rest beside that monster

Woodhenge wrote: »

I have heard that he left several letters, or at least more than one. That might even be more suggestive of disorganised thoughts or an inability to express thoughts in a coherent manner?

Yeah because nothing like writing letters with forethought and clear instructions indicates a disorganised mind. Why are you trying to find excuses for the killer's actions?

Apparently the killer wrote that his family couldn't cope without him - he should have consulted with Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan before brutally murdering them - I'm sure they'd have had a much different opinion.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yeah because nothing like writing letters with forethought and clear instructions indicates a disorganised mind. Why are you trying to find excuses for the killer's actions?

Apparently the killer wrote that his family couldn't cope without him - he should have consulted with Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan before brutally murdering them - I'm sure they'd have had a much different opinion.

I would guess you haven't read the letters and this is rumour, but even so no one is making excuses.
You, and several others, want the killer to be a certain type of person or acting with a certain set of motives and won't consider anything else. That doesn't give you a monopoly on feeling horrified and angry about what happened. Looking for explanations vs looking for excuses are two different things. Thankfully vilifying mental health problems is no longer tolerated. But people need to vilify him, therefore he cannot have had mental problems.

People experiencing psychotic episodes with delusions, hallucinations etc. can score pretty normal on cognitive tests.

Messengers wrote: »

Writing a letter isn't proof of a sound mind and that's a huge stretch to make.

The person I quoted tried to present the killer's letter-writing as evidence of mental health issues. I was refuting it.

There's no point speculating on someone's mental state,

Tell that to those who keep suggesting that he was mentally unwell.

suicide and murder can be completely illogical.

Yeah and sometimes the killer can just be a bad fucker too - no need for hand-wringing and looking for excuses.

Interview with Clodagh Hawe's sister on the "Joe Finnegan" show on Shannonside Northern Sound this morning.
I can't post a link (maybe someone else might do it for me) but it answers a lot of questions being asked here if people want to listen back to it.

Woodhenge wrote: »

It's interesting though that people can legitimately get a dig in at the media, the church and even the perpetrators relatives in this thread and no one says getting a jab in on these is "self serving and distasteful". When feminist appropriation of this awful crime is raised however, the response is that criticism of this has no place.

Is it not self serving and distasteful to use the victims as human shields against criticism?

There is no post-mortem test for a psychotic breakdown yet people on this thread that have never met the perpetrator and no doubt have no expertise in this area can categorically say he was of sound mind.

Now we have confirmation from the victim's family that there were no signs or hints of domestic violence yet people still can't fit the facts into the story they want to tell about this event and what it means for society.

I know it's a very unpopular point of view, but this view that gender theorists have an infallible ability to analyse these events is dangerous and ultimately will keep us from learning any practical lessons.

Heard Clodagh Hawe's sister on the radio this evening. She did mention that there was no intimation of violence in the family. She emphasised the fact that her sister was a wonderful mother and the children were very happy. She seemed to have been very upset by the comments which people made online, criticising the family for burying the father with his wife and children. They were stunned at the disaster which had befallen them and did not give much thought as to who was going to be buried with whom.

Something which I personally experienced when my mother died, was the speed with which funerals occur in Ireland. You are shell-shocked by the death, and the person is buried almost before you realise what has happened. And that was when the death was under normal circumstances. I cannot imagine how Jacqueline Connolly and her mother dealt with their horrific tragedy. It is dreadful to think that their suffering was increased by the thoughtless cretins, on here and elsewhere, who always seem 'to know better' and have an opinion to spout on everything, without ever giving a thought to the fact that the heartbroken relations might be reading their insensitive and inappropriate words. It was really sad to listen to the murdered woman's sister describing the extra pain caused by all the thoughtless comments which they have seen online.

Jacqueline, if you happen to be reading this, I am so sorry for all you, your mother and other family members have had to endure. My heart goes out to you and I trust you will all find the strength to get through your unimaginable grief.

brooke 2 wrote: »

It is dreadful to think that their suffering was increased by the thoughtless cretins, on here and elsewhere, who always seem 'to know better' and have an opinion to spout on everything.

I think it's important to make a distinction between people who'd have an opinion on a matter and those who'd specifically target a grief-stricken person for personal abuse. This is an Irish discussion board, after all, and the incident happened in Ireland and is pretty infamous.

wakka12 wrote: »

Id say the guilt that alan's family feel makes it even worse. If I was related to him I would always feel to blame for not seeing that his family were in trouble or recognising that my own family member was capable of committing something like that. If I was his parents Id blame myself and question how I brought him up, nothing personal to the parents I have no idea whether they were good or bad parents just personally thats how Id feel if in that position

On page 129 - post 1927 of the previous thread on this case, "happywithlife" said:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057640998&page=129

Someone asked earlier how come Alan was so evil if he's other two brothers are not- my mother is from a family of four and her siblings are horrified at her behaviour over the years. They cannot fathom how she is as bad as she is - me and my siblings have been told several times over by aunts etc that they don't know how we are all as sane as we are - I credit this this to my late grandmother who put herself mentally physically and emotionally between us kids and my mother's abuse at a great personal cost to herself. They were all reared in the same manner but looking back now they can point to occassions in her young childhood where even then she displayed narrisstic traits.

Bambi985 wrote: »

Just listened to that interview - link to it is here

Very dignified interview from her sister there, she sounds like a very strong and upstanding woman in the face of so much tragedy.

Couldn't believe when she said herself and her mother have been receiving anonymous threats online - the very fact that she had to plead with the general public to act with a little more kindness to a family that has lost it all through absolutely no fault of their own? Seriously, what sort of a sociopathic scumbag do you need to be to direct online abuse at someone facing the absolute worst sort of pain a person can face? That made my blood boil.

Wow. Everybody needs to hear this interview. What a courageous woman, such integrity. To think we are walking among people who went out of their way to write hate mail after the events and fallout of this crime to the people in the worst possible place. My god.