El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Why would it not be both? There is some evidence that he was abusive and I'm not discounting that. There is no evidence that he dabbled in murder before this so it's fairly clear that to go from zero murderous experience to entire familial murder suicide, without any kind of psychotic break is highly unlikely.
ceadaoin. wrote: » Perhaps the inquest will reveal more.
LordSutch wrote: » Reminds me of a similar family 'murder-suicide' in England a few years ago. In that case it was a high flying business man who lost a lot of money, so he shot his dogs, then killed his wife & daighter, them himself. Finally he set fire to the house ... There a haunting picture of them at the dinner table turning to face the camera, I think the pic was taken the day before, very haunting. I can't understand what would drive somebody to do this. Life is short enough.
ceadaoin. wrote: » Domestic violence tends to escalate over time, hence the increased risk of being murdered by your partner if you are in an abusive relationship. There are other red flags that indicate future homicide, such as strangulation incidents. So its not really going from zero to murder in these cases, it's going from various forms of abuse and violence to murder and isn't usually the result of a "psychotic break" Of course, we don't know for sure but personally my feeling is that he was abusive. And honestly, going by previous family killings, this would seem most likely. According to what I've read, in this kind of murder, something usually happens to set the killer off - stuff like discovering their wife is leaving, limited access to their kids, losing a job/status etc. Perhaps the inquest will reveal more. No one is "slagging him off". Raising awareness of these issues in Ireland and discussing them could very well prevent another instance of it happening again. What's wrong with that?
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » such as a psychotic break.
Zubeneschamali wrote: » Would you stop with the psychotic break stuff. There is no evidence that Hawe had a psychotic break, and plenty of evidence that he did not.
Hannibal_Smith wrote: » Can I ask, what is the evidence that he didn't have a psychotic break? Is it because of the notes he left?
kylith wrote: » From my reading on it, yes. Psychotic episodes are usually sudden onset and brought on by the brain deciding it can't deal with reality any more, or drugs. Symptoms can include hallucinations, delusions, and the inability to tell reality from fantasy. As far as I can tell the fact that he had the presence of mind to write notes does not tie in with having a psychotic break.
Woodhenge wrote: » I have heard that he left several letters, or at least more than one. That might even be more suggestive of disorganised thoughts or an inability to express thoughts in a coherent manner?
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Yeah because nothing like writing letters with forethought and clear instructions indicates a disorganised mind. Why are you trying to find excuses for the killer.
LexieOnRale wrote: » Well she's dead and buried from hatchet wounds so I'd say it's safe to say there's something in it TBH
Kidchameleon wrote: » I mean the abuse before the murders. Mother saying it happened for years?
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Yeah because nothing like writing letters with forethought and clear instructions indicates a disorganised mind. Why are you trying to find excuses for the killer's actions? Apparently the killer wrote that his family couldn't cope without him - he should have consulted with Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan before brutally murdering them - I'm sure they'd have had a much different opinion.
Woodhenge wrote: » You ... want the killer to be a certain type of person or acting with a certain set of motives and won't consider anything else.
Messengers wrote: » Writing a letter isn't proof of a sound mind and that's a huge stretch to make.
There's no point speculating on someone's mental state,
suicide and murder can be completely illogical.
heldel00 wrote: » Interview with Clodagh Hawe's sister on the "Joe Finnegan" show on Shannonside Northern Sound this morning. I can't post a link (maybe someone else might do it for me) but it answers a lot of questions being asked here if people want to listen back to it.
Woodhenge wrote: » It's interesting though that people can legitimately get a dig in at the media, the church and even the perpetrators relatives in this thread and no one says getting a jab in on these is "self serving and distasteful". When feminist appropriation of this awful crime is raised however, the response is that criticism of this has no place. Is it not self serving and distasteful to use the victims as human shields against criticism? There is no post-mortem test for a psychotic breakdown yet people on this thread that have never met the perpetrator and no doubt have no expertise in this area can categorically say he was of sound mind. Now we have confirmation from the victim's family that there were no signs or hints of domestic violence yet people still can't fit the facts into the story they want to tell about this event and what it means for society. I know it's a very unpopular point of view, but this view that gender theorists have an infallible ability to analyse these events is dangerous and ultimately will keep us from learning any practical lessons.
team_actimel wrote: » Well said. Alan's family also lost 3 grandchildren/nephews/cousins and a sister-in-law. They are suffering as much as Clodagh's family. My thoughts are with all of them.
brooke 2 wrote: » It is dreadful to think that their suffering was increased by the thoughtless cretins, on here and elsewhere, who always seem 'to know better' and have an opinion to spout on everything.
Bambi985 wrote: » Just listened to that interview - link to it is here Very dignified interview from her sister there, she sounds like a very strong and upstanding woman in the face of so much tragedy. Couldn't believe when she said herself and her mother have been receiving anonymous threats online - the very fact that she had to plead with the general public to act with a little more kindness to a family that has lost it all through absolutely no fault of their own? Seriously, what sort of a sociopathic scumbag do you need to be to direct online abuse at someone facing the absolute worst sort of pain a person can face? That made my blood boil.
wakka12 wrote: » Id say the guilt that alan's family feel makes it even worse. If I was related to him I would always feel to blame for not seeing that his family were in trouble or recognising that my own family member was capable of committing something like that. If I was his parents Id blame myself and question how I brought him up, nothing personal to the parents I have no idea whether they were good or bad parents just personally thats how Id feel if in that position
Someone asked earlier how come Alan was so evil if he's other two brothers are not- my mother is from a family of four and her siblings are horrified at her behaviour over the years. They cannot fathom how she is as bad as she is - me and my siblings have been told several times over by aunts etc that they don't know how we are all as sane as we are - I credit this this to my late grandmother who put herself mentally physically and emotionally between us kids and my mother's abuse at a great personal cost to herself. They were all reared in the same manner but looking back now they can point to occassions in her young childhood where even then she displayed narrisstic traits.
Lady Spangles wrote: » What's less surprising (but still saddening) is that this idea was the brainchild of a priest.
