Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

12357…38

Comments

  • #122
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    robbiezero wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence, thats NOT enough for you to accept it?
    jesus do you need her to come back from the dead and tell you herself?

    Can you post a link to where members of his family have said it?
    someone else posted a rake of links a few pages back, it ranges from red tops to the Sunday papers.


  • #123
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,136 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Familial murder dioxide is a fairly stone cold case of a mental breakdown.

    You say that we are not dealing with mental health, but then you use vague terms like "stone cold case of a mental breakdown". What exactly do you think Hawe was suffering from? Why do you think that?

    I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it.

    I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.


  • #124
    myshirt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,245 ✭✭✭myshirt


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    What's to say he wasn't just an evil b#stard who enjoyed watching the world burn?

    We all try rationalise and make sense of these things, apply some sort of sane logic, and all that jazz, but sometimes a guy is just a plain evil b#stard.

    Absolutely horrible what happened here. I look at my kids and think how would you do that.


  • #125
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Familial murder dioxide is a fairly stone cold case of a mental breakdown.

    You say that we are not dealing with mental health, but then you use vague terms like "stone cold case of a mental breakdown". What exactly do you think Hawe was suffering from? Why do you think that?

    I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it.

    I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.
    i think the confusion is because there is a medical difference between having a diagnosed long term 'mental illness' and suffering a psychotic break. people associate mental illness with the people we know and love and trust and accept they are just unwell, yes we see them do horrible things to others and themselves but the line is a calculated and long term plan of murdering your family because you belive they cant live without you. while yes he may have had a break, that is different to the social acceptance of a mental illness ie: anxiety, bipolar, depression, manic episodes, schizophrenia etc


  • #126
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,136 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    livedadream wrote: »
    i think the confusion is because there is a medical difference between having a diagnosed long term 'mental illness' and suffering a psychotic break. people associate mental illness with the people we know and love and trust and accept they are just unwell, yes we see them do horrible things to others and themselves but the line is a calculated and long term plan of murdering your family because you belive they cant live without you. while yes he may have had a break, that is different to the social acceptance of a mental illness ie: anxiety, bipolar, depression, manic episodes, schizophrenia etc

    You're drawing an arbitrary distinction there. As I said earlier it's akin to seeing mentally ill people as pitiful, do f you can't pity this guy then he couldn't be mentally ill.

    As I also said earlier its easy to pay lip service to supporting mental health but the reality is different. Not all mental illness is a cuddly dose of depression. Reality isn't that simple.
    Mental health doesn't only affect nice people and you font need to like someone for them to suffer mental illness.
    Mental health is complicated and it's important. These are potentially the stakes.


  • Advertisement
  • #127
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    i think the confusion is because there is a medical difference between having a diagnosed long term 'mental illness' and suffering a psychotic break. people associate mental illness with the people we know and love and trust and accept they are just unwell, yes we see them do horrible things to others and themselves but the line is a calculated and long term plan of murdering your family because you belive they cant live without you. while yes he may have had a break, that is different to the social acceptance of a mental illness ie: anxiety, bipolar, depression, manic episodes, schizophrenia etc

    You're drawing an arbitrary distinction there. As I said earlier it's akin to seeing mentally ill people as pitiful, do f you can't pity this guy then he couldn't be mentally ill.

    As I also said earlier its easy to pay lip service to supporting mental health but the reality is different. Not all mental illness is a cuddly dose of depression. Reality isn't that simple.
    Mental health doesn't only affect nice people and you font need to like someone for them to suffer mental illness.
    Mental health is complicated and it's important. These are potentially the stakes.
    and I 100% agree with you,

    but as a number of charities have come out to say, poor media standards mean the first thing people talk about is mental illness in a situation like this when there is no proof and it has flatly been denied by the family.

    I have a family member who is can be violent due to schizophrenia, if I were to be murdered in my bed by him that would be the first thing to be reported.  However if my boyfriend murdered me in my bed, it would still be mentioned or suggested that he had a mental illness despite there being nothing mentally wrong with him.  what the charities tried to do was distinguish between the facts, a man murdered his wife and children and then committed suicide after leaving a number of instructions and letters about what needed to be done and way opposed to someone who was at the end of their tether and hearing voices to murder his wife and children.  it was a cold and calculated move. It was not the action of someone who was in their right state of mind at the time but that does not mean he had a mental illness.
    and its unfair to label it as that.


  • #128
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,878 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    livedadream wrote: »
    so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence
    I don't think this is true. The links you referred to didn't show members of his family saying that.

    There are mentions of 'abuse', but as far as I can see, only one mention of 'violence' from Clodagh's sister. And, as the post by Candie earlier highlights, not all abuse is physical abuse.

    Anyway, I think I'll bow out of the thread for now. Maybe Lexieonrale will be able to find that article she mentioned. Apart from that, I think I've made the point I wanted to make as best I can.

    I thought this post was very fair and summed up a lot of what I thought:
    Candie wrote: »
    The most damning thing about Hawe imo is the letters. He had the foresight to write up letters that appeared to attempt to frame a self-serving narrative, and seemingly coldly murdered his wife in an exceptionally brutal way, and executed his own children brutally too. For himself, he had the comparatively humane death by hanging.

    The foresight says it wasnt a spontaneous act of violence, but planned executions. The interviews with her family are telling of a man who felt he owned his family, and the terminal act was of a person disposing of his property, perhaps to protect the stellar reputation we heard so much of in the immediate aftermath.

    Maybe he was ill, there's a lot to be said for the argument that nobody 'normal' picks up an axe or hammer and murders their own children. Or maybe, as people closest to him seem to think, he was a man used to getting his own way and dictated the terms of existence of his family in death as well as life.

    I remember posting on the other thread that while people were absolutely right to avoid the lazy conclusion that 'he must be mentally ill' even when there was no evidence, I also thought that people were somewhat guilty of the same thing in reaching the 'he was always a monster' conclusion. I suppose they just found the argument more water-tight than I did.

    Since then I've seen stuff about him (such as following his wife to that Hen party) which removes a lot of my questions about that conclusion.

    But I still don't think I've seen enough to be sure that there was a history of physical violence. If others disagree, so be it.


  • #129
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    osarusan wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence
    I don't think this is true. The links you referred to didn't show members of his family saying that.

    There are mentions of 'abuse', but as far as I can see, only one mention of 'violence'. And, as the post by Candie earlier highlights, not all abuse is physical abuse.

    Anyway, I think I'll bow out of the thread for now. Maybe Lexieonrale will be able to find that article she mentioned. Apart from that, I think I've made the point I wanted to make as best I can.

    I thought this post was very fair and summed up a lot of what I thought:
    Candie wrote: »
    The most damning thing about Hawe imo is the  letters. He had the foresight to write up letters that appeared to  attempt to frame a self-serving narrative, and seemingly coldly murdered  his wife in an exceptionally brutal way, and executed his own children  brutally too. For himself, he had the comparatively humane death by  hanging.

    The foresight says it wasnt a spontaneous act of violence, but planned  executions. The interviews with her family are telling of a man who felt  he owned his family, and the terminal act was of a person disposing of  his property, perhaps to protect the stellar reputation we heard so much  of in the immediate aftermath.

    Maybe he was ill, there's a lot to be said for the argument that nobody  'normal' picks up an axe or hammer and murders their own children. Or  maybe, as people closest to him seem to think, he was a man used to  getting his own way and dictated the terms of existence of his family in  death as well as life.

    I  remember posting on the other thread that while people were absolutely  right to avoid the lazy conclusion that 'he must be mentally ill' even when there was no evidence, I also thought that people were somewhat guilty of  the same thing in reaching the 'he was always a monster' conclusion. I suppose they just found the argument more water-tight than I did.

    Since  then I've seen stuff about him (such as following his wife to that Hen  party) which removes a lot of my questions about that conclusion.

    But  I still don't think I've seen enough to be sure that there was a history of physical violence. If others disagree, so be it.
    Ive quoted it before and the only link i can find coz im on my phone now is the irish mirror (i know i know)
    her sister used the words domestic violence...
    “In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh’s situation.
    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/clodagh-boys-never-stood-chance-9367017


  • #130
    robbiezero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,852 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    livedadream wrote: »
    Ive quoted it before and the only link i can find coz im on my phone now is the irish mirror (i know i know)
    her sister used the words domestic violence...
    “In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh’s situation.
    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/clodagh-boys-never-stood-chance-9367017

    Not sure actual physical violence would count as "the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs".
    But maybe.

    What was the stuff about the hen party, never heard that?


  • #131
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,886 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    robbiezero wrote: »

    What was the stuff about the hen party, never heard that?

    He basically showed up to a hen party wanting to know what was going on!


    https://www.thesun.ie/news/256456/killer-husband-alan-hawe-once-stalked-tragic-wife-clodagh-to-a-hen-weekend/


  • Advertisement
  • #132
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    robbiezero wrote: »
    Not sure actual physical violence would count as "the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs".
    But maybe.

    What was the stuff about the hen party, never heard that?


    With all due respect there are men and women all over the country that suffer from physical violence from their partners with no signs to family and friends. A lack of a visible bruise doesn't mean your not being physically abused.


  • #133
    robbiezero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,852 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    livedadream wrote: »
    With all due respect there are men and women all over the country that suffer from physical violence from their partners with no signs to family and friends. A lack of a visible bruise doesn't mean your not being physically abused.

    Fair enough. I'll leave it at that.
    The reason I think it is quite important to find out is that you don't want people thinking "well my partner or spouse is not physically violent to me so that could never happen us".


  • #134
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,538 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Don't agree with you on this one.
    The events of today back up my argument. I think the family was coerced into burying them together and were not strong enough or confused at the time to object BUT they have seen the light since.

    there really is no evidence of it. it's simply people looking to try and rationalise against a decisian made by the family they disagree with and that the families agreed to at the time and it's easier to think the family were bullied or coerced rather then accepting they made the decisian they felt at the time was right for them.
    if any evidence does come to light that the priest "bullied" or "coerced" the families into making a decisian they didn't want then that should be given to whatever relevant authority, investigated appropriately and sanctions implemented but until then it's speculation which i'm not interested in . i'm only interested in the actual proven facts of this case.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #135
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it.

    I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.

    Why is it clear that it's a psychotic break? Couldn't it be just as likely that he was a calculating bastard who couldn't stand the thought of losing control of his family and losing his carefully crafted public image?

    Being a victim of domestic abuse is a risk factor for being murdered by your abuser. Not because they have a physchotic break but because they are violent, controlling and abusive. It would be rare that a previously non abusive person suddenly snaps and murders their entire family. I don't know why some people seem so keen to paint this horrible murder as one of those instances.


  • #136
    political analyst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,059 ✭✭✭political analyst


    GeorgeBailey wrote: »
    He's not a judge or a lawyer. He's a priest. Quite often a priest who is a family friend will come in and say a funeral mass instead of the local priest. So, no.

    But a priest who didn't know either of the families involved might have been more considerate towards Clodagh's family. I suspect that the local priest cajoled her family into letting Hawe's remains be buried beside hers and their children's.

    This case is completely different from a priest who is a family friend saying Mass for the funeral of someone who died in unrelated circumstances.

    It is obvious that the local priest's judgement was clouded by his friendship with Hawe.

    Even in the priesthood, there is such a thing as ethics, you know.


  • #137
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it.

    I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.

    It wasn't a clear psychotic break. Again, he was an abuser, he abused his family culminating in killing them because he didn't want to be exposed as an abuser to others who thought the sun shone out of his arse. You're doing a disservice to Clodagh and her children by saying this man suffered a psychotic episode which led to him killing them, it's simply not what happened that day.


  • #138
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode.

    You say you can't diagnose him, then you DO diagnose him, and then you say WE are not dealing with the reality of mental health.

    You are the one making up a diagnosis of a psychotic break - I am not a mental health professional, but I know that Hawe's actions do not look remotely like a psychotic break. He planned it, he wrote a note justifying it, he wrote another note and left it on the door to prevent people walking in on the scene, and then he killed himself. Completely inconsistent with a psychotic episode.


  • #139
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Her mother and sister have said it, what other evidence do you need?


  • #140
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Either way all the comments about 'rot in hell' and him being cowardly and disgusting actually show a complete misunderstanding of mental health issues which he clearly suffered from and no I'm not making excuses for him.

    Every scumbag is now being given an out by claiming their "evilness" is down to mental illness.
    It is like how every loan wolf terrorist attacker of a certain persuasion is now mentally ill.
    BULLSHYTE.
    And yes I know "evil" is historically a religious construct, but there is no other more descriptive term for how some people will harm others.
    murpho999 wrote: »
    I'm not naive, I like most people here, do not fully know the full circumstances despite what people think they know because they have read stuff on the internet so just don't get into over the top reactions.

    Simple as that.

    That's about the only fooking sense you have uttered here.
    You do not know the circumstances and hopping on the mental illness blame game was like all his apologists who refused to countenance the idea that he was a very nasty piece of work.
    When stories were released early on and tabloids expressed the views of some relatives about his true nature, there were still people harping on about his sudden mental breakdown.

    The guy was a piece of sh** who pre-planned it all.
    Worse still the local priest bullied a grief stricken family into pretending everything was rosy in the garden.
    Utterly disgusting and a lot of people at the time had voiced their disapproval to the priests superiors.
    livedadream wrote: »
    true or not im sure he'd be delighted by that the sun are currently writing about him...

    Actually people in this country should be more grateful to some of the British red tops and tabloids.
    It was those papers that voiced the concerns of relatives early on about him, whereas the Irish excuses for journalistic print media were telling everyone how great a guy he was in the local GAA club,etc.

    They neglected of course to mention there was a split in the GAA club as to carrying his coffin.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #141
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    A priest preaching about the importance of forgiveness and so on would be par for the course though surely, "bury the family together" seems straight out of the standard priest playbook. It doesn't necessarily mean he coerced them with some ulterior motive, and I'm sure his head must have been spinning too.

    People often act strangely when they're in the midst of trauma, they act impulsively, out of character, counterintuitively. I've known people who've made some very peculiar decisions after the expected death of a parent, someone dealing with the violent murder of their child and grandchildren, at the hands of another family member, god only knows how their mind is coping and what they're liable to do. They've changed their minds and God love them did so in the full knowledge that it would put the story and their family history back in the public conversation, it must be seriously important to them. I hope it brings them some tiny bit of solace.


  • Advertisement
  • #142
    political analyst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,059 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Paisleigh Weak Peace wrote: »
    A priest preaching about the importance of forgiveness and so on would be par for the course though surely, "bury the family together" seems straight out of the standard priest playbook. It doesn't necessarily mean he coerced them with some ulterior motive, and I'm sure his head must have been spinning too.

    All the more reason for a priest who was a friend of Hawe not to say the funeral Mass!


  • #143
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Powder Lemon wrote: »
    I'm just asking, I got the impression you were very certain about it so there must have been evidence.

    There is a very long closed thread here about the case. Some of us are more familiar with the details than others.


  • #144
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,549 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    end of the road wrote: »
    there really is no evidence of it. it's simply people looking to try and rationalise against a decisian made by the family they disagree with and that the families agreed to at the time and it's easier to think the family were bullied or coerced rather then accepting they made the decisian they felt at the time was right for them.
    if any evidence does come to light that the priest "bullied" or "coerced" the families into making a decisian they didn't want then that should be given to whatever relevant authority, investigated appropriately and sanctions implemented but until then it's speculation which i'm not interested in . i'm only interested in the actual proven facts of this case.

    The "proven facts" are that the family wanted him out of the grave and we have seen that very clearly today. Now ask yourself why it didn't happen originally and then read the priest's funeral sermon or whatever it's called.
    https://www.facebook.com/NiallBoylanAtNight/photos/pb.131193550289985.-2207520000.1473024011./1116242338451763


  • #145
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    tayto lover wrote: »
    The "proven facts" are that the family wanted him out of the grave and we have seen that very clearly today. Now ask yourself why it didn't happen originally and then read the priest's funeral sermon or whatever it's called.
    https://www.facebook.com/NiallBoylanAtNight/photos/pb.131193550289985.-2207520000.1473024011./1116242338451763

    According to the Irish times article, his family gave permission to exhume him because of a note he left stating that he wished to be cremated.
    It is understood the exhumation took place on the wishes of Hawe’s family. Before taking his own life, Hawe left a note saying he wanted his remains cremated and his ashes scattered in the ocean.

    Apparently this wasn't known about at the time of burial. I read elsewhere that his family had previously denied the request of clodaghs family that he be moved, which was made not too long after the funerals. If that's true, how horrible for Clodaghs family. So he's been moved, not because his family are disgusted that this murderer was buried beside his victims but because it's what he wanted.


  • #146
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Is there any reason to discuss this really? Does anyone think today's decision was the wrong one?

    Imagine how difficult for clodagh's family visiting the grave of their daughter/sister and grandsons/nephews knowing the reason they are dead is lying there with them.


  • #147
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,549 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    According to the Irish times article, his family gave permission to exhume him because of a note he left stating that he wished to be cremated.



    Apparently this wasn't known about at the time of burial. I read elsewhere that his family had previously denied the request of clodaghs family that he be moved, which was made not too long after the funerals. That makes me feel sick tbh
    If they were my grandkids i'd have removed him myself regardless of what his family wanted. There were lots of rumours at the time. If such a letter existed it would have been made known before now I feel.


  • #148
    Hannibal_Smith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,446 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    robbiezero wrote: »
    Yes I read the post. The questions I asked were not answered in it.
    I am just interested. I have not really read that much in a long while about the case and I had not realized that they had established the reasons behind the murders.

    To be fair I was wondering the same thing. I didn't realise there was reported abuse either. I don't know where the information about abuse, or likely to be exposed is coming from. I wonder how people know this?


  • #149
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    This article sheds more light on the circumstances of the burial and exhumation:
    “At the time the funeral was arranged they were in deep shock and deep, deep distress.

    "On the Thursday before the funeral, it was somehow accepted that the family would be buried together.

    “But very soon after the funeral the immediate shock gave way to some other sort of emotion, and Mary and Jacqueline couldn’t understand themselves how he had been buried with them.

    “They asked for Hawe to be removed. They felt he shouldn’t have been put in there in the first place and they wanted him gone.”

    The only people who could give their permission for the exhumation was Alan Hawe’s parents, Olive and Stephen.

    The friend explained: “Let’s just say the request was not responded to as they hoped it would be.

    “So Mary and Jacqueline had to jump through hoop after hoop to get that man out of that grave.

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/clodagh-hawes-mum-sister-fought-10391346


  • #150
    twill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 587 ✭✭✭twill


    Today's papers have reported that an inquest is due later this year. It's probable that this will clear up a lot of the uncertainty in relation to mental state, etc. I'd say that Clodagh Hawe's family know more than they are able to say at this point, probably having read the suicide notes. I think arguing about it is fruitless since it's going to become clear sooner or later.


  • Advertisement
  • #151
    political analyst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,059 ✭✭✭political analyst


    twill wrote: »
    Today's papers have reported that an inquest is due later this year. It's probable that this will clear up a lot of the uncertainty in relation to mental state, etc. I'd say that Clodagh Hawe's family know more than they are able to say at this point, probably having read the suicide notes. I think arguing about it is fruitless since it's going to become clear sooner or later.

    While you don't want to be too hard on the Hawe family given the circumstances, their actions in (apparently) blocking the exhumation and then saying it happened because it was his wish are really, really insulting of the victims.

    I can only surmise that Alan Hawe's parents were still struggling to come to terms with his crimes at the time the request for exhumation was sent and so were simply unwilling to deal with it at the time.


Advertisement