helimachoptor wrote: » Should never have been buried with them in the first place. What a cowardly disgusting man, may he rot in hell or wherever he ends up
ceadaoin. wrote: » According to the Irish times article, his family gave permission to exhume him because of a note he left stating that he wished to be cremated.
twill wrote: » Today's papers have reported that an inquest is due later this year. It's probable that this will clear up a lot of the uncertainty in relation to mental state, etc. I'd say that Clodagh Hawe's family know more than they are able to say at this point, probably having read the suicide notes. I think arguing about it is fruitless since it's going to become clear sooner or later. While you don't want to be too hard on the Hawe family given the circumstances, their actions in (apparently) blocking the exhumation and then saying it happened because it was his wish are really, really insulting of the victims.
“At the time the funeral was arranged they were in deep shock and deep, deep distress. "On the Thursday before the funeral, it was somehow accepted that the family would be buried together. “But very soon after the funeral the immediate shock gave way to some other sort of emotion, and Mary and Jacqueline couldn’t understand themselves how he had been buried with them. “They asked for Hawe to be removed. They felt he shouldn’t have been put in there in the first place and they wanted him gone.” The only people who could give their permission for the exhumation was Alan Hawe’s parents, Olive and Stephen. The friend explained: “Let’s just say the request was not responded to as they hoped it would be. “So Mary and Jacqueline had to jump through hoop after hoop to get that man out of that grave.
robbiezero wrote: » Yes I read the post. The questions I asked were not answered in it. I am just interested. I have not really read that much in a long while about the case and I had not realized that they had established the reasons behind the murders.
ceadaoin. wrote: » According to the Irish times article, his family gave permission to exhume him because of a note he left stating that he wished to be cremated. Apparently this wasn't known about at the time of burial. I read elsewhere that his family had previously denied the request of clodaghs family that he be moved, which was made not too long after the funerals. That makes me feel sick tbh
tayto lover wrote: » The "proven facts" are that the family wanted him out of the grave and we have seen that very clearly today. Now ask yourself why it didn't happen originally and then read the priest's funeral sermon or whatever it's called.https://www.facebook.com/NiallBoylanAtNight/photos/pb.131193550289985.-2207520000.1473024011./1116242338451763
It is understood the exhumation took place on the wishes of Hawe’s family. Before taking his own life, Hawe left a note saying he wanted his remains cremated and his ashes scattered in the ocean.
end of the road wrote: » there really is no evidence of it. it's simply people looking to try and rationalise against a decisian made by the family they disagree with and that the families agreed to at the time and it's easier to think the family were bullied or coerced rather then accepting they made the decisian they felt at the time was right for them. if any evidence does come to light that the priest "bullied" or "coerced" the families into making a decisian they didn't want then that should be given to whatever relevant authority, investigated appropriately and sanctions implemented but until then it's speculation which i'm not interested in . i'm only interested in the actual proven facts of this case.
Powder Lemon wrote: » I'm just asking, I got the impression you were very certain about it so there must have been evidence.
Paisleigh Weak Peace wrote: » A priest preaching about the importance of forgiveness and so on would be par for the course though surely, "bury the family together" seems straight out of the standard priest playbook. It doesn't necessarily mean he coerced them with some ulterior motive, and I'm sure his head must have been spinning too.
murpho999 wrote: » Either way all the comments about 'rot in hell' and him being cowardly and disgusting actually show a complete misunderstanding of mental health issues which he clearly suffered from and no I'm not making excuses for him.
murpho999 wrote: » I'm not naive, I like most people here, do not fully know the full circumstances despite what people think they know because they have read stuff on the internet so just don't get into over the top reactions. Simple as that.
livedadream wrote: » true or not im sure he'd be delighted by that the sun are currently writing about him...
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it. I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.
GeorgeBailey wrote: » He's not a judge or a lawyer. He's a priest. Quite often a priest who is a family friend will come in and say a funeral mass instead of the local priest. So, no.
tayto lover wrote: » Don't agree with you on this one. The events of today back up my argument. I think the family was coerced into burying them together and were not strong enough or confused at the time to object BUT they have seen the light since.
livedadream wrote: » With all due respect there are men and women all over the country that suffer from physical violence from their partners with no signs to family and friends. A lack of a visible bruise doesn't mean your not being physically abused.
robbiezero wrote: » Not sure actual physical violence would count as "the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs". But maybe. What was the stuff about the hen party, never heard that?
robbiezero wrote: » What was the stuff about the hen party, never heard that?
livedadream wrote: » Ive quoted it before and the only link i can find coz im on my phone now is the irish mirror (i know i know) her sister used the words domestic violence... “In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh’s situation.http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/clodagh-boys-never-stood-chance-9367017
osarusan wrote: » livedadream wrote: » so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence I don't think this is true. The links you referred to didn't show members of his family saying that. There are mentions of 'abuse', but as far as I can see, only one mention of 'violence'. And, as the post by Candie earlier highlights, not all abuse is physical abuse. Anyway, I think I'll bow out of the thread for now. Maybe Lexieonrale will be able to find that article she mentioned. Apart from that, I think I've made the point I wanted to make as best I can. I thought this post was very fair and summed up a lot of what I thought: Candie wrote: » The most damning thing about Hawe imo is the letters. He had the foresight to write up letters that appeared to attempt to frame a self-serving narrative, and seemingly coldly murdered his wife in an exceptionally brutal way, and executed his own children brutally too. For himself, he had the comparatively humane death by hanging. The foresight says it wasnt a spontaneous act of violence, but planned executions. The interviews with her family are telling of a man who felt he owned his family, and the terminal act was of a person disposing of his property, perhaps to protect the stellar reputation we heard so much of in the immediate aftermath. Maybe he was ill, there's a lot to be said for the argument that nobody 'normal' picks up an axe or hammer and murders their own children. Or maybe, as people closest to him seem to think, he was a man used to getting his own way and dictated the terms of existence of his family in death as well as life. I remember posting on the other thread that while people were absolutely right to avoid the lazy conclusion that 'he must be mentally ill' even when there was no evidence, I also thought that people were somewhat guilty of the same thing in reaching the 'he was always a monster' conclusion. I suppose they just found the argument more water-tight than I did. Since then I've seen stuff about him (such as following his wife to that Hen party) which removes a lot of my questions about that conclusion. But I still don't think I've seen enough to be sure that there was a history of physical violence. If others disagree, so be it.
livedadream wrote: » so if someone is murdered in cold blood by their husband, and then their mother and sister (and some members of his family) come out and say she suffered from domestic violence
Candie wrote: » The most damning thing about Hawe imo is the letters. He had the foresight to write up letters that appeared to attempt to frame a self-serving narrative, and seemingly coldly murdered his wife in an exceptionally brutal way, and executed his own children brutally too. For himself, he had the comparatively humane death by hanging. The foresight says it wasnt a spontaneous act of violence, but planned executions. The interviews with her family are telling of a man who felt he owned his family, and the terminal act was of a person disposing of his property, perhaps to protect the stellar reputation we heard so much of in the immediate aftermath. Maybe he was ill, there's a lot to be said for the argument that nobody 'normal' picks up an axe or hammer and murders their own children. Or maybe, as people closest to him seem to think, he was a man used to getting his own way and dictated the terms of existence of his family in death as well as life.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » livedadream wrote: » i think the confusion is because there is a medical difference between having a diagnosed long term 'mental illness' and suffering a psychotic break. people associate mental illness with the people we know and love and trust and accept they are just unwell, yes we see them do horrible things to others and themselves but the line is a calculated and long term plan of murdering your family because you belive they cant live without you. while yes he may have had a break, that is different to the social acceptance of a mental illness ie: anxiety, bipolar, depression, manic episodes, schizophrenia etc You're drawing an arbitrary distinction there. As I said earlier it's akin to seeing mentally ill people as pitiful, do f you can't pity this guy then he couldn't be mentally ill. As I also said earlier its easy to pay lip service to supporting mental health but the reality is different. Not all mental illness is a cuddly dose of depression. Reality isn't that simple. Mental health doesn't only affect nice people and you font need to like someone for them to suffer mental illness. Mental health is complicated and it's important. These are potentially the stakes.
livedadream wrote: » i think the confusion is because there is a medical difference between having a diagnosed long term 'mental illness' and suffering a psychotic break. people associate mental illness with the people we know and love and trust and accept they are just unwell, yes we see them do horrible things to others and themselves but the line is a calculated and long term plan of murdering your family because you belive they cant live without you. while yes he may have had a break, that is different to the social acceptance of a mental illness ie: anxiety, bipolar, depression, manic episodes, schizophrenia etc
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Zubeneschamali wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Familial murder dioxide is a fairly stone cold case of a mental breakdown. You say that we are not dealing with mental health, but then you use vague terms like "stone cold case of a mental breakdown". What exactly do you think Hawe was suffering from? Why do you think that? I'm very confused. I said it is mental health. Where did I say it wasn't and I'll correct it. I can't diagnose a specific mental illness the same way you can't. Familial Murder suicide is a fairly clear case if a psychotic episode. Unless he was demonstrating other psychopathic behaviour that would be consistent with murdering his family then this is a clear psychotic break.
Zubeneschamali wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Familial murder dioxide is a fairly stone cold case of a mental breakdown. You say that we are not dealing with mental health, but then you use vague terms like "stone cold case of a mental breakdown". What exactly do you think Hawe was suffering from? Why do you think that?
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Familial murder dioxide is a fairly stone cold case of a mental breakdown.
