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Opt-Out Organ Donation

1246

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭howiya


    biko wrote: »
    Chuffed that only two people have spelled donor "doner" so far :D

    I'm a donor myself but would not be in favour of the French option.
    My organs are actually mine even when I am dead.
    I personally have signed away the rights to them (or my family can) but I would hate for the government/HSE feel they can just barge in and take what they want from me without my expressed consent.

    Under the current system here your family could override your expressed consent.

    The French option still involves your consent


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    I trust my family. I don't trust the HSE.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭howiya


    biko wrote: »
    I trust my family. I don't trust the HSE.

    Presumably the HSE would be conducting the transplant?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    Yes but by asking them a YES/NO question you take people not being "bothered" out of the equation.
    They have to pick an answer unlike the current system.
    Even ask them face-to-face when applying for a Drivers Licence.

    Is it not just more logical to assume that everyone will willingly take on the role of a donor but some people may choose opt-out?

    I wonder if there are any statistics available regarding people's opinions on organ donation. I tend to assume everyone would want to be a donor (which I know is untrue), but are there more people who want to be donors or more people who don't?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    osarusan wrote: »
    Why the assumption that opting out would be costly or troublesome?
    In France you have to send a letter by registered post at the moment.
    Upon reaching 18, every person could get a donor card along with a letter which explains that they are now on the list of donors, and here is why being a donor is so helpful, but if they want to opt out, the can call this number/visit this website and have the ID code on the back of the card.
    Why just put people on a list without asking them?
    There's no need for it, when there are plenty of opportunities to ask them to opt-in.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Looks like opt-out organ donation is back on the table, at least:
    Health Minister Simon Harris has proposed a new bill to establish an "opt-out" organ donation system in Ireland.

    The Human Tissue Bill will put in place a system of “presumed consent” for organ donation to replace the current system that requires people to opt in if they wish to make their organs available for transplantation following their death.

    Ye Hypocrites, are these your pranks
    To murder men and gie God thanks?
    Desist for shame, proceed no further
    God won't accept your thanks for murder.

    ―Robert Burns



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,630 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Great news. As long as it's simple to opt out then everyone benefits. Those who care enough to simply opt out get what they want, those who don't care won't mind either way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    It's not fine, people die every day waiting for transplants while viable organs are left to rot in a pine box.

    Those boxes haven't been pine in a hell of a long time...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Great news. As long as it's simple to opt out then everyone benefits. Those who care enough to simply opt out get what they want, those who don't care won't mind either way.

    It's a farce. Hopefully someone with a brain in the Dail will stop this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    biko wrote: »
    Chuffed that only two people have spelled donor "doner" so far :D

    I'm a donor myself but would not be in favour of the French option.
    My organs are actually mine even when I am dead.
    I personally have signed away the rights to them (or my family can) but I would hate for the government/HSE feel they can just barge in and take what they want from me without my expressed consent.

    It would only be a matter of time before the HSE found a way to harvest everyones organs and sell them off, just because they could. Shower of Cu*ts, need the extra bonuses...


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,126 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    It's a farce. Hopefully someone with a brain in the Dail will stop this.
    That's unlikely, unless you'd like to donate yours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I think it's a great idea personally - the shortage of available organs is nothing short of shocking.

    My next of kin know my wishes and respect them but at the end of the day they are my wishes either way and I don't believe next of kin should have a say expect obviously in the case of a child.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    I think it's a great idea personally - the shortage of available organs is nothing short of shocking.

    My next of kin know my wishes and respect them but at the end of the day they are my wishes either way and I don't believe next of kin should have a say expect obviously in the case of a child.

    They still will. Next of kin will be able to opt out under the system that has been discussed.

    I think that's ok tbh. I'll be dead, it's my family that have to live with the consequences. So while I hope they would agree with my decision to have all my organs donated (I've discussed it with them and made it clear that it's something I feel strongly about), if that's not something they could handle then that's fine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    I read somewhere that it's costing the state up to €500,000 a year to keep a person on dialysis while waiting for a donor. I'd be willing to sign up as an organ donor, as I'm sure many others would, for a fee of say €50k. Once there are organs ready to go, the length of dialysis is cut, so the savings would be made there to pay me. Doesn't seem like rocket science.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    I read somewhere that it's costing the state up to €500,000 a year to keep a person on dialysis while waiting for a donor. I'd be willing to sign up as an organ donor, as I'm sure many others would, for a fee of say €50k. Once there are organs ready to go, the length of dialysis is cut, so the savings would be made there to pay me. Doesn't seem like rocket science.

    I can see why you're not volunteering to be a heart donor anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I read somewhere that it's costing the state up to €500,000 a year to keep a person on dialysis while waiting for a donor. I'd be willing to sign up as an organ donor, as I'm sure many others would, for a fee of say €50k. Once there are organs ready to go, the length of dialysis is cut, so the savings would be made there to pay me. Doesn't seem like rocket science.
    1. Nobody is going to pay you €50k now for the promise of organs when you die. Depending on when when and how you die, your organs may or may not be suitable for transplant. Nobody will give you any money until you actually deliver an organ.

    2. The good news is that you don't have to die to donate a kidney and so get someone off dialysis. You've got two kidneys, and you can get by pretty well with just the one. So, if offered €50k for a kidney now, would you accept?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    Im working hard to make sure my liver isn't usable to be fair


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I read somewhere that it's costing the state up to €500,000 a year to keep a person on dialysis while waiting for a donor. I'd be willing to sign up as an organ donor, as I'm sure many others would, for a fee of say €50k. Once there are organs ready to go, the length of dialysis is cut, so the savings would be made there to pay me. Doesn't seem like rocket science.

    So you want a fee before you'll consider saving some-one's life? How heartless and selfish are you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    They're no good to me if I'm dead so work away and take whatever they want as far as I'm concerned


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    I wont donate my organs because like blood transfusions, the government will profit of my gift. Private patients pay for their blood and will bo doubt pay for their organs (hse will use creative accounting).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    I wont donate my organs because like blood transfusions, the government will profit of my gift. Private patients pay for their blood and will bo doubt pay for their organs (hse will use creative accounting).
    You're in a no-win situation here, judeboy. The state will also profit when the patient dies for want of the transplant organ that you could have provided but chose not to. They can stop treating him, and of course they'll avoid the cost of the transplant operation.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You're in a no-win situation here, judeboy. The state will also profit when the patient dies for want of the transplant organ that you could have provided but chose not to. They can stop treating him, and of course they'll avoid the cost of the transplant operation.

    But they wont be profiting from my donation


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    the milk of human kindness is really flowing through this thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Either way, they'll be profiting from your decision. Your choice is whether to allow them to profit from your decision to save a life, or to allow them to profit from your decision to let someone die.

    In other words, maybe the most important consideration here isn't the financial implications for the exchequer. Worth thinking about, anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    But they wont be profiting from my donation

    http://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/news/243666/offaly-boy-forced-to-wait-for-transplant-as-donor-liver-found-to-be-damaged.html

    There's cases like this life and death situations, real people, small kids lives riding on people's donations. It's your body and your organs but the sole reason of not donating to get one over on the government is really petty when there seems people actually dying. Your organs will be left to decay in a wooden box in the ground, when they could give a child the chance to live a normal life.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭Parchment


    I cant imagine not wanting to donate your organs. Its such a wonderful act that can essentially give someone else life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    I wont donate my organs because like blood transfusions, the government will profit of my gift. Private patients pay for their blood and will bo doubt pay for their organs (hse will use creative accounting).

    I'm assuming you equally would not be willing to receive an organ in the event of a medical emergency. You are such a selfish selfless person.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    1. Nobody is going to pay you €50k now for the promise of organs when you die. Depending on when when and how you die, your organs may or may not be suitable for transplant. Nobody will give you any money until you actually deliver an organ.

    2. The good news is that you don't have to die to donate a kidney and so get someone off dialysis. You've got two kidneys, and you can get by pretty well with just the one. So, if offered €50k for a kidney now, would you accept?

    I would.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    So you want a fee before you'll consider saving some-one's life? How heartless and selfish are you?

    No, I am willing to save the govt money. €50k to save €450,000 seems a good deal.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    I don't know why you'd need permission.

    1st of all you don't need to give permission because you're dead. You don't exist anymore.

    And by giving family the veto are you not saying that they own your corpse? Are people allowed to own corpses?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    I'm assuming you equally would not be willing to receive an organ in the event of a medical emergency. You are such a selfish selfless person.

    No problem accepting as I have private health insurance and will be charged handsomely by the HSE for the privilege


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    But they wont be profiting from my donation

    What a lovely person you are. I hope you, nor anyone you love, ever end up needing a donation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    No problem accepting as I have private health insurance and will be charged handsomely by the HSE for the privilege

    Double standards of the highest order there. On top of your selfishness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    No, I am willing to save the govt money. €50k to save €450,000 seems a good deal.

    It's selfishness and pettiness of the highest order, nothing more.


  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,615 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    They can have what they want, bar my eyes. No point wasting lungs, heart, kidneys, etc. In fact, in a way, you get to live on!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    Glenster wrote: »
    I don't know why you'd need permission.

    1st of all you don't need to give permission because you're dead. You don't exist anymore.

    And by giving family the veto are you not saying that they own your corpse? Are people allowed to own corpses?


    Next of kin have a right to dictate what medical treatment you receive in the event that you are no longer capable of making your own decision. This isn't all that different.

    I don't think someone can 'own' a corpse, but they do have the right to control what happens to it. There have been plenty of cases with arguments over where someone is buried or who gets the ashes after cremation.


    Whether the body is a corpse at the time of donation is something that could be arguable anyway. At what point does a body become a corpse? For organ donation (non-live donation), while the donor has to be brain-dead their heart will be kept beating until it is harvested.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Glenster wrote: »
    I don't know why you'd need permission.

    1st of all you don't need to give permission because you're dead. You don't exist anymore.

    And by giving family the veto are you not saying that they own your corpse? Are people allowed to own corpses?


    by saying that they dont need permission are you saying that the state owns your corpse after you die?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,847 ✭✭✭Armchair Andy


    What a lovely person you are. I hope you, nor anyone you love, ever end up needing a donation.

    Double standards of the highest order there. On top of your selfishness.

    It's selfishness and pettiness of the highest order, nothing more.


    Why resort to insulting those who have a different opinion than yours?

    Mine might need a good power washing before being passed on but whatever bits they can use have at em.

    Only thing I ask is if they do find lungs that have been severely tarred from years of smoking, please don't do a dead foetus job on them and throw em in the bin. Lob em back into the coffin please, afford my children some respect should that kind of procedure ever come to light.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,630 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    It's a farce. Hopefully someone with a brain in the Dail will stop this.

    I disagree but you didn't make an argument so it's hard to say any more.

    I see 2 main groups involved. People who have strong feelings about what should happen to their organs after death and people who need organ transplants.

    As long as the opt out is simple then neither group is significantly inconvenienced but one group stands to benefit significantly. I'd say the brains have already spoken on this issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    maudgonner wrote: »
    Whether the body is a corpse at the time of donation is something that could be arguable anyway. At what point does a body become a corpse? For organ donation (non-live donation), while the donor has to be brain-dead their heart will be kept beating until it is harvested.

    Can you donate your vital organs if you're still alive though? Surely you'd have to be medically dead before they could harvest your organs.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    Glenster wrote: »
    Can you donate your vital organs if you're still alive though? Surely you'd have to be medically dead before they could harvest your organs.

    You can donate e.g. a kidney or a lobe of your liver when you're alive, known as a live organ donation.

    As I said, for a non-live donation you need to be declared brain-dead, but your heart is kept beating (through artificial life support) to keep the organs healthy during the harvesting process, until the heart itself is harvested. That's my understanding of the process anyway, and my experience of it with an extended relative.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    maudgonner wrote: »
    You can donate e.g. a kidney or a lobe of your liver when you're alive, known as a live organ donation.

    As I said, for a non-live donation you need to be declared brain-dead, but your heart is kept beating (through artificial life support) to keep the organs healthy during the harvesting process, until the heart itself is harvested. That's my understanding of the process anyway, and my experience of it with an extended relative.

    Its fairly cut and dry whether you're dead then isn't it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,713 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    1. Sell kidney for €50,000.
    2. Travel to poor country and buy new kidney for say €5,000.
    3. Sell kidney in Ireland for €50,000 (sell the new kidney, always keep your own original kidney, that's the pro-tip here).
    4. Repeat and repeat.
    5. PROFIT!!!

    I made one of those PROFIT!!! things and didn't even need a line of ?????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    Glenster wrote: »
    Its fairly cut and dry whether you're dead then isn't it.

    Your question was whether you're dead, a corpse or not.

    I don't know what the legal definition of a corpse is (or even whether there is one) , but in most jurisdictions there are two categories of legal death: brain-death and cardiopulmonary-death.

    So not exactly cut and dried in the way you described. For organ donation brain-death is required. But whether you're a corpse at that point, I don't know. For example, I don't think death is declared until the heart is stopped. You'd need a lawyer to answer that one, thankfully I'm not a lawyer :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    maudgonner wrote: »
    Your question was whether you're dead, a corpse or not.

    I don't know what the legal definition of a corpse is (or even whether there is one) , but in most jurisdictions there are two categories of legal death: brain-death and cardiopulmonary-death.

    So not exactly cut and dried in the way you described. For organ donation brain-death is required. But whether you're a corpse at that point, I don't know. For example, I don't think death is declared until the heart is stopped. You'd need a lawyer to answer that one, thankfully I'm not a lawyer :pac:

    Brain death is death. Universally and unchallengeably.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Glenster wrote: »
    Brain death is death. Universally and unchallengeably.

    Death can be either brain death or pulmonary death. If somebodies heart stops beating and doctors cannot resuscitate then they are dead even though their brain may continue to function until it is starved of oxygen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    Glenster wrote: »
    Brain death is death. Universally and unchallengeably.


    No it isn't? You can't bury someone who's still on life support.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    I have a donor card and think this is a good idea.

    My one problem is that with most people having their organs removed after death, there will be a surplus on organs. Some charlatan government will probably see this as a money making exercise to flog off the organs abroad and anybody that disagrees with it will have Helen Lovejoy calling us racists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    I have a donor card and think this is a good idea.

    My one problem is that with most people having their organs removed after death, there will be a surplus on organs. Some charlatan government will probably see this as a money making exercise to flog off the organs abroad and anybody that disagrees with it will have Helen Lovejoy calling us racists.


    As long as it isn't depriving an Irish person of organs I have absolutely no problem with my organs being donated to someone overseas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    maudgonner wrote: »
    No it isn't? You can't bury someone who's still on life support.

    That's only because there's no mains access down there.


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