Opt-Out Organ Donation

Podge_irl

jackofalltrades wrote: »

But why is there the need for assumptions?
If people have made the decision to donate their organs, then all they have to do is to tick the box on their drivers licence or get a donor card.

And it has absolutely zero legal standing.

Your relatives can do whatever the hell they want with your body when you're dead.

Calhoun wrote:

What kind of regulation do we have in place to make sure everything is being done for those who are in a position to donate that all measures are exhausted to bring them back ect?

The same ones that stop a doctor letting you die cause they just feel like it at the moment?

Calhoun wrote:

This is Ireland after all where the medical system time and time again has shown itself to be not always so morale.

Such as?

osarusan

Calhoun wrote: »

What kind of regulation do we have in place to make sure everything is being done for those who are in a position to donate that all measures are exhausted to bring them back ect? This is Ireland after all where the medical system time and time again has shown itself to be not always so morale.

I don't think that's any more of an issue in an opt-out system than an opt-in system.

I think it's a terrible argument in both cases.

KERSPLAT!

I've no issue with people not wanting to donate, it's their body and their decision. They don't need to justify it to me. My concern is the waste when there are people who want to donate but for whatever reason, their wishes aren't met. Be it family members going against their wishes or not knowing them to begin with. Either way it's a waste

222233

end of the road wrote: »

actually, i don't want to is an answer and a perfectly legitimate one at that. nobody has to explain why they want to or don't want to donate their organs. it's their business and their decisian will be respected.

On this note a lot of people say they won't donate because they want to be buried with their organs, should we also laws regarding:
-the embalment process
-the removal of organs in emergencies (spline for example) where it is necessary to try and save that persons life, if there is a chance they will die.. seeing as they want to be buried with all of their organs?

Podge_irl

end of the road wrote: »

actually, i don't want to is an answer and a perfectly legitimate one at that. nobody has to explain why they want to or don't want to donate their organs. it's their business and their decisian will be respected.

Actually currently it won't.

Yes, it is a perfectly legitimate answer but not exactly all that enlightening as to what the thought process behind why they have an issue with it.

infogiver

I complete a lot of driver license applications for people as part of my job and I would estimate only 2 out of 10 tick the box choosing to be an organ donor.
I checked the RSA website and it claims 4 out of 10 but, no, I'd say 3, tops.

osarusan

222233 wrote: »

-the removal of organs in emergencies (spline for example) where it is necessary to try and save that persons life, if there is a chance they will die.. seeing as they want to be buried with all of their organs?

I think this is a bit silly to be honest. Just because you wouldn't like your organs removed after death doesn't mean that logically you wouldn't like a diseased lung removed either.

I don't have a problem with somebody not wanting to be a donor. I'm not baffled by the idea of wanting to be buried/cremated completely intact. I don't need more of an explanation than that. And if that is how you feel, you just opt out. I'm in favour of making that process easy.

But I don't think it is an argument against an opt-out sytem.

El_Duderino 09

infogiver wrote:

I complete a lot of driver license applications for people as part of my job and I would estimate only 2 out of 10 tick the box choosing to be an organ donor. I checked the RSA website and it claims 4 out of 10 but, no, I'd say 3, tops.

To be fair I had my first license for a couple of years before I ticked the box so the actual number could be higher than when you see them.

Podge_irl

osarusan wrote: »

I don't have a problem with somebody not wanting to be a donor. I'm not baffled by the idea of wanting to be buried/cremated completely intact. I don't need more of an explanation that that. And if that is how you feel, you just opt out. I'm in favour of making that process easy.

But I don't think it is an argument against an opt-out sytem.

I agree. I'm curious as to people's reasons for not wanting to be donors but that's a personal interest. I think any opt-out system should be straightforward.

Because ultimately, as in the current system, the vast majority of people who don't actually overly care one way or the other will go with the status quo.

infogiver

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

To be fair I had my first license for a couple of years before I ticked the box so the actual number could be higher than when you see them.

When you go to get your first license now or to renew your licence now its question 20 on the application form and it will appear on your plastic license as code 115 if you opt in.
The RSA are quite clear. Only 4 out of 10 tick the box on the application form.
In my experience it wouldn't even be 4.
People squirm uncomfortably and then say "no".

222233

osarusan wrote: »

I think this is a bit silly to be honest. Just because you wouldn't like your organs removed after death doesn't mean that logically you wouldn't like a diseased lung removed either.

But if your reasoning is that you want you body fully intact then you wouldn't want to be embalmed.

Yes the organ removal is just my argument to "I want to be buried with all of my organs", if that's the case then you would assumably prefer not to have any organs removed if it's likely you will die but a small chance of survival with removal. We make that decision for people everyday, if someone has been in an accident a doctor will do whatever they can to save their life, surely they should be able to do the same for people on the organ transplant lists.

I can understand there are many reasons why someone might not want to be a donor (fear, beliefs etc and thats fine by the way if you have considered reasoning)

maudgonner

Calhoun wrote: »

What kind of regulation do we have in place to make sure everything is being done for those who are in a position to donate that all measures are exhausted to bring them back ect?

The process is described here:

Brain stem death is the permanent loss of function of the brain stem and this is ascertained through tests carried out by two senior doctors to determine absence of brain function. When these tests show that there is no brain function and no chance of recovery, the patient is declared dead.

kylith

osarusan wrote: »

I'm not baffled by the idea of wanting to be buried/cremated completely intact. I don't need more of an explanation than that.

I can understand that. What I can't understand is why an adult would continue to hold that view after logical consideration, especially when they could help so many people without it putting them out in the slightest.

KERSPLAT!

kylith wrote: »

I can understand that. What I can't understand is why an adult would continue to hold that view after logical consideration, especially when they could help so many people without it putting them out in the slightest.

It's could put their family out amd cause further distress, a poster above already gave that as a possible reason for not donating

kylith

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

It's could put their family out amd cause further distress, a poster above already gave that as a possible reason for not donating

It is unfortunate that the family be so distressed, which is why it's important to discuss these things with your family and make your wishes very clear beforehand.

Unfortunately the organs do need to be taken as soon as possible after death or they become unusable. I very much doubt that the doctors enjoy making that request.

KERSPLAT!

Again, as above, the poster said they would donate unless it would cause further stress to their family. You asked for a reason and there is a simple one.

Whatever reason someone has, it's their body to do with as they please.

Arbie

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I'm glad to see some people have sympathy and understanding for next of kin and families that have made the excruciating decision not to donate a loved one's organs after death. My father died 6 years ago after several brain hemorrhages and we were veritably harassed by the spokespeople there to donate anything and everything we were willing to. My sister, only 14 at the time, begged that they would not take his eyes or his heart - that she wanted him to "go to heaven" with the memory of his love for us and what we looked like. It was a huge shock, and he was kept on life support for far longer than necessary while we came to a decision. Eventually, being told that he would be transported elsewhere for the surgery and that we could be waiting up to a week before we were issued with the emptied corpse was what made the decision for us. That and a concerned nurse coming to us on the QT to tell us that, if we consented, they would and have taken everything that was useful, despite our wishes.

I've told my husband that if my death is natural or expected, that I wish to have all useful bits and bobs donated. If it is a shock death, especially if the kids are young, that he is to make the best call he can on how to minimise the trauma and suffering for my immediate family. There's not a lot I can give my husband and children when I die, so the decision on how to dispose of me can lie with them. If I were forced to "opt-in" or "opt-out" exclusively with no in-between, I'd be forced to opt-out to protect my loved ones.

I have worked on a surgical transplant team and have close relatives who have donated organs, so I have been on both sides.

That nurse may have meant well but he or she was totally incorrect. In my experience the co-ordinators take the utmost care to get input from all the family and make sure that everyone agrees what will be done. You mentioned eyes above but eye donation has not been carried out in Ireland for many years due to the risk of CJD, so the eyes are not touched. All donor eyes (corneas) come from abroad. The organs that can be donated in Ireland are lungs, liver, heart, pancreas, kidneys.

It is a rotten position to be in to ask a family to consider donating their still-breathing relative's vital organs, particularly considering it is usually after a sudden injury like a car accident. You always feel like a bit of a vulture and that you are adding to their pain but the donation window is short and it has to be done.

In my experience families will try to think about it fairly and discuss it but it's a huge emotional pressure. If the person has been vocal about wanting to donate then it's often a short conversation as people typically want to respect their wishes. If there was never a clear opinion expressed by the person, then the reaction can vary from total agreement among family members to the rare but sadly real occasions where fights have broken out. Death of a loved one churns up so much emotion that it seems cruel to be adding to it by asking people about organ donation. Some people feel very guilty that someone might die if they don't agree. I would hate for my family to be in that position.

On a social/ethical level, we really can't have our cake and eat it. I imagine more than 90% of people would be willing to accept an organ from someone if they needed one. Can you imagine an insurance plan where everyone is covered but only a fraction of people are willing to pay the premium? It would be unethical to force everyone to donate but if by default we would all be willing recipients then surely we should all be presumed willing donors unless we actively state otherwise.

Smoked Tuna

What if you need your organs in the after life?

KERSPLAT!

Smoked Tuna wrote: »

What if you need your organs in the after life?

Then keep them. Simple.

kylith

Smoked Tuna wrote: »

What if you need your organs in the after life?

If a deity can make an entire infinite universe out of nothing, rustling up a few organs shouldn't pose much of a problem.

byhookorbycrook

carrieb wrote: »

I really don't understand why anybody would not donate. I am very very pro donating and my parents and partner know this. I carry a card too. I think that a family member blocking a donation is absolutely disgusting. I would be all for a strong, not soft, opt out.

Due to meds I am on, I cannot donate as I might be passing on a potentially fatal condition. I have signed up to donate my body for research, so that's a reason for you.

mags1962

I think that "harvested" is the wrong word and gives the completely wrong impression of what actually happens.
Even in the current system there is still a large amount of families that go against the deceased's wishes where they have opted in by way of a donor card or driving license.
Education and correct information is the key and I don't think internet forums is the place to get those.

weldoninhio

kylith wrote: »

There is an opt-in register but between people not bothering to put their names on it and people thinking that donating their organs is somehow icky (again, after they're dead, when you don't have the capacity to be icked-out by anything) there are people dying or spending years on waiting lists and dialysis, or blind while thousands upon thousands of perfectly good organs are put in the ground to rot (like that's not icky :rolleyes:) or incinerated.

But that doesn't answer my question WHY do you not want your organs donated? 'I just don't want to', isn't an answer. After all, if you were walking past a lake and saw someone drowning and you could throw them a rope you would, wouldn't you?

So if people "aren't bothering" to put their name on it, they don't want their body harvested after death. If they did it would take 2 mins to sign up or get a donor card. It's the same as an opt-out list in reverse.

osarusan

weldoninhio wrote: »

If they did it would take 2 mins to sign up or get a donor card. It's the same as an opt-out list in reverse.

It is indeed. Thus the argument that anybody that has a strong wish one way or the other can easily be accommodated.

Podge_irl

weldoninhio wrote: »

So if people "aren't bothering" to put their name on it, they don't want their body harvested after death. If they did it would take 2 mins to sign up or get a donor card. It's the same as an opt-out list in reverse.

There is no opt-in register and nor would it have any legal standing if such a thing was created as things stand.

However a lot of people who would happily donate their organs won't sign up to the register out of a)laziness or b)assuming they have plenty of time before dying to do it. If you have a strong feeling about it you can opt-out. The benefit of doing it as an opt-out system is that apathy/laziness doesn't lead to people dying needlessly.

weldoninhio

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is no opt-in register and nor would it have any legal standing if such a thing was created as things stand.

However a lot of people who would happily donate their organs won't sign up to the register out of a)laziness or b)assuming they have plenty of time before dying to do it. If you have a strong feeling about it you can opt-out. The benefit of doing it as an opt-out system is that apathy/laziness doesn't lead to people dying needlessly.

As shown from the RSA stats most people tick no on the form.

maudgonner

weldoninhio wrote: »

As shown from the RSA stats most people tick no on the form.

That's not true. There is no 'No' option on the form. There is just a box to tick if you want to the code to appear on your licence to indicate you wish to be a donor.

(I'm not nitpicking - these things have a significant effect on behaviour).

infogiver

weldoninhio wrote: »

As shown from the RSA stats most people tick no on the form.

You have to tick the box if you want to be a donor
Leave it empty if you don't
As I said, I fill loads of these forms for folk and no more then 2 out of ten let me tick the box.

Capt'n Midnight

Smoked Tuna wrote: »

What if you need your organs in the after life?

IIRC it's traditional to keep them in separate jars and besides your brain won't much use after being pulled out through your nose.

jackofalltrades

222233 wrote: »

I don't think it's ethically questionable? You have the option to opt out.

Provided you actual are aware that you have the option.
Is it really fair to give people the option to opt-out when they're not aware of the option existing.
Opt-out is designed to take advantage of the people being "lazy".
Proponents of this system openly admit this.
And even encourage the creation of barriers to dissuade people opting out.

Podge_irl wrote: »

However a lot of people who would happily donate their organs won't sign up to the register out of a)laziness or b)assuming they have plenty of time before dying to do it.
If you have a strong feeling about it you can opt-out. The benefit of doing it as an opt-out system is that apathy/laziness doesn't lead to people dying needlessly.

If you have a strong opinion you can opt-in.
Is there proof that a lot of people haven't opted-in due to laziness?
And if that's the problem whey isn't they're a campaign to sign people up?
I'd go door-to-door to sign people up if this was an issue.
And just to clarify other issues raised I'd support a hard opt-in.