Opt-Out Organ Donation

bnt

As of January 1, France has brought in an opt-out system for organ donations. Unless you are on an official refusal register, organ donation will be a possiblity, regardless of what next-of-kin say at that time.

Here in in Ireland, there is talk of legislating a "soft opt-out" position, as in this press release. The idea is similar to France's except that next-of-kin will have the right of refusal.

Personally, I think France has the right idea. The "soft" opt-out position under discussion for Ireland doesn't tackle the main reason there is a shortage of donor organs in the first place: the next-of-kin saying "no". They already have the ability to give consent, regardless of whether or not the deceased carried a donor card, but it's very easy to fall back on a default position of "no" if you don't understand something.

So I'm favour of the French position, both for what it is, and also for the fact that it's forcing people to talk about what they want while they are able to do so. The minutes or hours after a loved one has died are not the time to have this discussion for the first time. Organ donation is a time-critical process - there is no time for next-of-kin to go away and have a think about it.

ohnonotgmail

They can have mine if they want but they'll be fairly well used by the time i'm done with them.

It's fine as opt-in, it's the whole thing of asking grieving people for permission that's the issue. I don't have a donor card because it means nothing, my family know what I'd want.

Vic_08

bnt wrote: »

As of January 1, France has brought in an opt-out system for organ donations. Unless you are on an official refusal register, organ donation will be a possiblity, regardless of what next-of-kin say at that time.

Here in in Ireland, there is talk of legislating a "soft opt-out" position, as in this press release. The idea is similar to France's except that next-of-kin will have the right of refusal.

Personally, I think France has the right idea. The "soft" opt-out position under discussion for Ireland doesn't tackle the main reason there is a shortage of donor organs in the first place: the next-of-kin saying "no". They already have the ability to give consent, regardless of whether or not the deceased carried a donor card, but it's very easy to fall back on a default position of "no" if you don't understand something.

So I'm favour of the French position, both for what it is, and also for the fact that it's forcing people to talk about what they want while they are able to do so. The minutes or hours after a loved one has died are not the time to have this discussion for the first time. Organ donation is a time-critical process - there is no time for next-of-kin to go away and have a think about it.

I'd go further and disqualify people that opt out from receiving donated organs.

sashafierce

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Vic_08

Deleted User wrote: »

It's fine as opt-in, it's the whole thing of asking grieving people for permission that's the issue. I don't have a donor card because it means nothing, my family know what I'd want.

It's not fine, people die every day waiting for transplants while viable organs are left to rot in a pine box.

Hector Bellend

Nobody wants my liver

Vic_08

Vic_08 wrote: »

It's not fine, people die every day waiting for transplants while viable organs are left to rot in a pine box.

And having grieving people have the final decision ain't gonna fix that.

the_pen_turner

A relative of mine needed a new kidney. He went on the list and all that.
They were at some group meeting or I formation night or some such on the ins and outs of it. (Pardon the pun)
The person there hand d out leaflets on donation and signing up.

My mother was down at the house a few days later to see how he was. Got talking about the sheet on donating.
Turns out all 5 of his family refused to sign into be doners. Because the didn't like the idea of it. All the while having g their son and brother dying while waiting g for a kidney

He got it in the end

sashafierce

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aphex™

I read with collision avoidence systems and auto pilot in new cars theres going to be a huge decrease in available tissue in years to come.

Squeeonline

Hector Bellend wrote: »

Nobody wants my liver

Mine is well exercised. Preserved well.

Crea

aphex™ wrote: »

I read with collision avoidence systems and auto pilot in new cars theres going to be a huge decrease in available tissue in years to come.

The motorcyclists will make up for it

maudgonner

I think soft opt-out would be a great thing. I'm hugely in favour of organ donation and have made my wishes clear.

I've also been there when a family member's organs were donated, and while it was absolutely the right decision for them, it's not an easy one. I can see how some families would find it incredibly difficult and traumatising to have their loved one's organs donated against their wishes.

So while I'd prefer hard opt-out to seeing people die needlessly, I think soft opt-out is a good middle-ground that would hopefully improve donation rates enough to meet need. I'd love to see that brought in very soon.

sashafierce

sashafierce wrote: »

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Even without the automatic thing just have it so that if someone registers then it's done.

gramar

Crea wrote: »

The motorcyclists will make up for it

Better again.

freedominacup

Vic_08 wrote: »

I'd go further and disqualify people that opt out from receiving donated organs.

Perfectly logical. Never occured to me though. The process to opt out should require a serious amount of hassle and expense.

Agree fully OP. If anybody remembers - I certainly do as it was a flagrant abuse of any serious data protection legislation - when that gobshíte Noel Dempsey was minister in charge of the electoral register he made his law (the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2000) so that our personal details could be used by commercial entities for targeting us unless we opted out.

That's our government: we have to opt out when our data during our life is being given en masse to private companies for marketing purposes; we have to opt in if we would like our organs after our death to save somebody's life. Wonderfully revealing priorities from Irish legislators. Wonderful.

seamus

I think you'd be surprised the amount of people who silently have a problem with this. People are funny and squeamish and sentimental about death. I've heard people saying things like, "I'd be OK donating my kidneys, but I'd feel weird thinking that someone might have my eyes". And "I don't like the idea that doctors could just take bits without asking".

What difference does it make, you're dead!

The main issue in an Irish context is that of property rights. Ownership of the body passes to the next-of-kin, so the state cannot just step in and assert ownership in the timeframe required to make the decision about organ donation. You also cannot enter into agreements that take effect after your death - dead people can't fulfil contracts, so no matter what agreements you have made about donating all or part of your body, those agreements are invalid when you die. Ownership of your body has passed to someone else, and they are not party to those agreements and therefore not bound by them.

This is why the "soft opt-out" is the proposal on the table. A conversion to a proper opt-out system would likely be subject to a lot of challenge from certain groups and may even require a constitutional amendment/referendum.

Disqualifying non-donors from receiving organs is an idea, but still encounters the same ownership problem. They can opt-in so they get on the transplant list, but then the family can just refuse after they die.

maudgonner

freedominacup wrote: »

Perfectly logical. Never occured to me though. The process to opt out should require a serious amount of hassle and expense.

Don't agree with this at all. The opt-out process should not cost money and be simple enough that anyone can do it without, for example, needing to pay for legal advice.

It's bad enough that our health system is two-tier, making organ donation something that poorer people or less educated people are forced into would be the wrong signal to send, in my opinion.

People need to trust the system. This would damage that trust.

freedominacup

maudgonner wrote: »

People need to trust the system. This would damage that trust.

People need to grow up. Rich/poor doesn't come into it. It does make a difference to recipients.

seamus

maudgonner wrote: »

Don't agree with this at all. The opt-out process should not cost money and be simple enough that anyone can do it without, for example, needing to pay for legal advice.

But not so simple though that someone could put up a link on facebook with an hysterical false claim about hospitals harvesting organs for profit and urging everyone to opt-out immediately. Because that's what would happen.

Opting out should be free, but annoying enough that only the determined will go through with it. Like having to make an appointment with the GRO and attend in person.

sashafierce

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sashafierce

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maudgonner

seamus wrote: »

I think you'd be surprised the amount of people who silently have a problem with this. People are funny and squeamish and sentimental about death. I've heard people saying things like, "I'd be OK donating my kidneys, but I'd feel weird thinking that someone might have my eyes". And "I don't like the idea that doctors could just take bits without asking".

What difference does it make, you're dead!

Yeah, people have strange notions about what they will and won't donate.

I will also say though, that while it makes no difference to the dead person, it can be incredibly difficult for families. The process of donating organs isn't an easy one, especially for a grieving family. Most people don't realise that it's not like in the movies - there is no 'switching off life support' moment (at least not in my experience). You say goodbye to your loved one and walk away, while they are still 'breathing', still connected to life support. They 'die' in the operating theatre. That's something that can be very difficult to handle.

I say this not to discourage anyone from donating a loved one's organs, or from wanting to be a donor themselves. (Like I said, I've made my own wishes clear that I want to have anything useful donated.) But a lot of people are very hard on families who decide not to donate their loved one's organs. I can understand that, if you're the one waiting for a transplant it must seem incredibly cruel. But I have sympathy for anyone that can't bring themselves to do it, it's a really fúcking hard decision to make.

Come on science! Give us the ability to grow organs in a lab and not need to worry about this.

ScumLord

seamus wrote: »

I think you'd be surprised the amount of people who silently have a problem with this. People are funny and squeamish and sentimental about death. I've heard people saying things like, "I'd be OK donating my kidneys, but I'd feel weird thinking that someone might have my eyes". And "I don't like the idea that doctors could just take bits without asking".

What difference does it make, you're dead!

And in heaven with Jesus, what if you're having a pint with Jesus and then look over at the window only to see dude looking back at you lovingly because you're eyes are now in his girlfreind, as we all know, the eyes are the window to the soul.

You also cannot enter into agreements that take effect after your death - dead people can't fulfil contracts, so no matter what agreements you have made about donating all or part of your body, those agreements are invalid when you die.

How come a will doesn't have the same problem?

Reg'stoy

I'm going to wait on the god botherers and the same people who think we're all being dumbed down by chemtrails and that vaccines are laced with cancer to kill us all off and see if they object to this. I want to find out from them if my organs will be harvested and given to Chinese Billionaires or if I'm going to be resurrected minus my testicles on judgement day.

seamus

ScumLord wrote: »

How come a will doesn't have the same problem?

It kind of does, any agreement to do something after your death will be invalid unless it's stated in the will.
Someone could make a claim against the estate, but unless you could prove that a debt has been incurred, any agreement not in the will would be unlikely to be enforced.

So if you told your next door neighbour, for example, that he could have half your garden after you die, but you actually give it to your son in your will, the neighbour would be unlikely to be able to claim what was agreed.

But in any case, the probate process takes too long for either organ or bodily donation. The process is rarely started until the body is well in the ground. Until that point, functional control over the estate (and therefore the body) lies with the next-of-kin or executor.

eviltwin

freedominacup wrote: »

People need to grow up. Rich/poor doesn't come into it. It does make a difference to recipients.

It's not just about the recipient. Every one in the process deserves respect and consideration especially the family who have just lost their loved one and even the deceased.

Im all for Organ donation, but I'll admit, that I would hate for any of my organs to go to some aul bastard like David Rockefeller, who is reported to have had 5 or 6 heart transplants.

Wrongly or rightly, I would hate that

freedominacup

eviltwin wrote: »

It's not just about the recipient. Every one in the process deserves respect and consideration especially the family who have just lost their loved one and even the deceased.

I meant that the transplant process is expensive and can be particularly difficult where both parents are working where you are talking about young children. We had a good fundraiser locally here around 12 months ago. 35k raised just to cover income loss and travel for parents of a little girl needing a multi organ transplant. Her dad was on the points of giving some/part of his own organs to keep her going a few months ago but a donor came up at last minute. As I said people need to grow up. Opt out only and extremely difficult, time consuming and expensive to get it is the only way.