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100 gay men detained in 'concentration camps' in Chechnya — read first post

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Comments

  • #152
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Beyondgone wrote: »
    Answer me Joey. Skip answering the easy ones. How do you justify your self-destructive view? Or are you just another self-destructive? That's a pretty common position for people with massive insecurities.
    Whats self destructive in what he said??


  • #153
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Whats self destructive in what he said??

    Well Muslims are apparently a threat to homosexuals. Could beat them up. If I was a homosexual I'd be anti muslim if this is true. Not all muslims will be a threat, but a high % could be.


  • #154
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Well Muslims are apparently a threat to homosexuals. Could beat them up. If I was a homosexual I'd be anti muslim if this is true. Not all muslims will be a threat, but a high % could be.

    Same as any other religon then really??

    Whats been done to stop this though?


  • #155
    Beyondgone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Beyondgone


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Whats self destructive in what he said??

    Well Tom, Joeys avowedly LGBT. The Muslim faith despises, persecutes and degrades LGBT people. Yet Joey's a committed fan of the Muslim faith and Muslim Immigration. He defends it to the bitter end. This baffles me. Call me thick, but if a group of people are violently and viciously opposed to my life-choices(in very clear ways) then I'm going to oppose them coming anywhere near me, because sensible. Yet he isn't. Explain that, please and thanks.


  • #156
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Mod- Ok guys and girls, can we leave Muslims and trump out of this please and get back on topic.


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  • #157
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Same as any other religon then really??

    Whats been done to stop this though?

    Only time sorts this out.


  • #158
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I don't believe in protests. People have their own lives to live. The show must go on.

    The show must go on until you're the minority being ostracised and persecuted. Then you wouldnt be so quiet


  • #159
    .........
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭.........


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Of course not what countries have large concentration camps at the moment?

    How do you know these are the only men being detained in concentration camps in Chechnya ?


  • #160
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    wakka12 wrote: »
    The show must go on until you're the minority being ostracised and persecuted. Then you wouldnt be so quiet

    Reminded me of this

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #161
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    wakka12 wrote: »
    The show must go on until you're the minority being ostracised and persecuted. Then you wouldnt be so quiet

    Correct.

    Never get involved in someone else's battle is 1 of mottos.


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  • #162
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Correct.

    Never get involved in someone else's battle is 1 of mottos.

    Until the someone else is you.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #163
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    ......... wrote: »
    How do you know these are the only men being detained in concentration camps in Chechnya ?


    It's not fully clear. Amnesty International believe not all men held in these places are there because of sexual orientation or gender identity.

    http://www.snopes.com/2017/04/11/chechnya-concentration-camp-homosexuals/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #164
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Until the someone else is you.

    And I won't be expecting or wanting homosexuals from chechyna to help out.

    Charity begins and ends at home. Something I always tell my kids.


  • #165
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rightwing wrote: »
    And I won't be expecting or wanting homosexuals from chechyna to help out.

    Charity begins and ends at home. Something I always tell my kids.

    Haha

    You're not really telling your kids the truth then considering the huge sums of money on charity sent abroad.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #166
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Haha

    You're not really telling your kids the truth then considering the huge sums of money on charity sent abroad.

    Fools and their money soon part.

    Where does this money?
    A.To a corrupt Government? B. To a greedy CEO? C. To the folks that need it?

    If all the money goes to C, I will donate as much as anyone, but it doesn't.


  • #167
    .........
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭.........


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It's not fully clear. Amnesty International believe not all men held in these places are there because of sexual orientation or gender identity.

    http://www.snopes.com/2017/04/11/chechnya-concentration-camp-homosexuals/

    The media etc. should be looking about them as well


  • #168
    Glenster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Rightwing wrote: »
    And I won't be expecting or wanting homosexuals from chechyna to help out.

    Charity begins and ends at home. Something I always tell my kids.

    I also only believe in charity for geographically proximate people.

    I was about to give a man a blanket last week but then he told me he was originally from Mayo which is 2 counties too far. So I snatched it back.

    Hes dead now.


  • #169
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Beyondgone wrote: »
    Well Tom, Joeys avowedly LGBT. The Muslim faith despises, persecutes and degrades LGBT people. Yet Joey's a committed fan of the Muslim faith and Muslim Immigration. He defends it to the bitter end. This baffles me. Call me thick, but if a group of people are violently and viciously opposed to my life-choices(in very clear ways) then I'm going to oppose them coming anywhere near me, because sensible. Yet he isn't. Explain that, please and thanks.

    That's a low brow attitude if you don't mind me saying. Denying access to non-Islamic countries from Islamic countries is hardly going to have much effect as to their beliefs or attitudes. If anything letting them come here and seeing our culture first hand would do a lot more to changing their attitudes than not.

    Not in all cases of course but if you just look at the huge number of Pakistani/Indian British citizens that were born in the UK who still identify as Muslims, you gotta think our beliefs and standards are gonna wipe off on them.

    Edit: Muslim attacks on gays in the UK is virtually unheard off and remember there is a huge Muslim population in places like London and elsewhere. I think the percentage of hardcore Muslim fundamentalist types is minuscule in comparison to the overall Muslim population of the UK. They are as insignificant at the percentage of Christian fundamentalist that exist there as well.


  • #170
    Beyondgone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Beyondgone


    learn_more wrote: »
    That's a low brow attitude if you don't mind me saying. Denying access to non-Islamic countries from Islamic countries is hardly going to have much effect as to their beliefs or attitudes. If anything letting them come here and seeing our culture first hand would do a lot more to changing their attitudes than not.

    Not in all cases of course but if you just look at the huge number of Pakistani/Indian British citizens that were born in the UK who still identify as Muslims, you gotta think our beliefs and standards are gonna wipe off on them.

    Edit: Muslim attacks on gays in the UK is virtually unheard off and remember there is a huge Muslim population in places like London and elsewhere. I think the percentage of hardcore Muslim fundamentalist types is minuscule in comparison to the overall Muslim population of the UK. They are as insignificant at the percentage of Christian fundamentalist that exist there as well.

    Low brow? I resent that.
    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiRtqWG_9nTAhXILsAKHUK7B6c4ChAWCDgwBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2016%2F04%2F11%2Feurope%2Fbritain-muslims-survey%2F&usg=AFQjCNHu2cXv3AiTRIN2lVMa4rg98NF7Aw&sig2=8OQzxquQdSL9gc_KnPZsYg


  • #171
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    learn_more wrote: »
    That's a low brow attitude if you don't mind me saying. Denying access to non-Islamic countries from Islamic countries is hardly going to have much effect as to their beliefs or attitudes. If anything letting them come here and seeing our culture first hand would do a lot more to changing their attitudes than not.

    Not in all cases of course but if you just look at the huge number of Pakistani/Indian British citizens that were born in the UK who still identify as Muslims, you gotta think our beliefs and standards are gonna wipe off on them.

    Edit: Muslim attacks on gays in the UK is virtually unheard off and remember there is a huge Muslim population in places like London and elsewhere. I think the percentage of hardcore Muslim fundamentalist types is minuscule in comparison to the overall Muslim population of the UK. They are as insignificant at the percentage of Christian fundamentalist that exist there as well.

    Any evidence to back that up? Because I find it hard to believe. The anti gay sentiment from within the muslim community across the world, from majority muslim countries to smaller muslim communities in european countries seems uniformly incredibly strong, theyre very open about their hatred of homosexuals also and seem sure of the fact that they'll never be okay with it

    Ive not experienced all that much homophobia in my lifetime but from the bits I have a large amount of it has been from muslim men, particularly online. Muslim women seem to take a 'I dont support homosexuality at all but would never offend somebody for being gay' kind of stance towards it. And considering the small muslim population in Ireland that would lead me to believe the anti gay sentiment within that community on average is very high
    Just my personal experience


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  • #172
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Beyondgone wrote: »
    Low brow? I resent that.
    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiRtqWG_9nTAhXILsAKHUK7B6c4ChAWCDgwBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2016%2F04%2F11%2Feurope%2Fbritain-muslims-survey%2F&usg=AFQjCNHu2cXv3AiTRIN2lVMa4rg98NF7Aw&sig2=8OQzxquQdSL9gc_KnPZsYg

    Well I'm sorry but I stand by it. Your remarks re JTP were a personal attack on him, without much intellectual input. The report you linked too says 52% of Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal. That means 48% don't. 48% is a lot of Muslims.

    I personally have no respect for religion, major or minor ones. Especially Islam. And not solely for their attitude to homosexuality. Religion to me equates to a poisonous idea of conformism - that everyone should be the same, and if your not, you don't cut it.

    So, your strategy is to cut out Muslims altogether, demonize them all, is not a position I admire. I think that attitude is low brow and I'm don't care if your offended. I think you should stop thinking in such simplistic ways.


  • #173
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    learn_more wrote: »
    Well I'm sorry but I stand by it. Your remarks re JTP were a personal attack on him, without much intellectual input. The report you linked too says 52% of Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal. That means 48% don't. 48% is a lot of Muslims.

    Hahahahaha that's scraping the barrel to think that 48% don't. There will be many "don't knows" on the survey. A lot who will just keep their opinion private.

    You know full well have vast majority of Muslims have a very harsh view on homosexuality.


  • #174
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    You know full well have vast majority of Muslims have a very harsh view on homosexuality.

    Unless you personally know 600 million Muslims personalised how can you know their views??


    Some seriously weak arguements being put forward here :D:D:D


  • #175
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    Beyondgone wrote: »
    Low brow? I resent that.
    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiRtqWG_9nTAhXILsAKHUK7B6c4ChAWCDgwBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2016%2F04%2F11%2Feurope%2Fbritain-muslims-survey%2F&usg=AFQjCNHu2cXv3AiTRIN2lVMa4rg98NF7Aw&sig2=8OQzxquQdSL9gc_KnPZsYg
    You're attacking a poster because they respect the rights of all. Cop on.


  • #176
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Richard Hillman wrote:
    You know full well have vast majority of Muslims have a very harsh view on homosexuality.

    We also know full well that the majority of conservatives wouldn't rush to defend homosexuality.

    But if it provides a chance to have a go at Muslims, they will come running.


  • #177
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Unless you personally know 600 million Muslims personalised how can you know their views??


    Some seriously weak arguements being put forward here :D:D:D

    Silly, would you have seriously tried to argue that south africans weren't racist during apartheid times? Even if you hadnt met all white south africans? I didnt need statistics to show me that the majority of white south africans were racist. just like staunchly homophobic views are blatantly obvious within almost all muslim communities


  • #178
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Silly, would you have seriously tried to argue that south africans weren't racist during apartheid times? Even if you hadnt met all white south africans?

    I would..but then again I'm not into tarring entire groups of people as a pastime




    The political leadership obviously was...but everyone else hardly was?


  • #179
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Silly, would you have seriously tried to argue that south africans weren't racist during apartheid times? Even if you hadnt met all white south africans? I didnt need statistics to show me that the majority of white south africans were racist. just like staunchly homophobic views are blatantly obvious within almost all muslim communities
    Then it should follow on that all Christians are homophobic which in itself is not true. You ignore the fact that Russia that is largely Christian has been engaging in creating homophobic legislation for years. Uganda, has homophobic laws that came about as a result of evangelical Christians from the US. So it's not unique to Islamic countires.


  • #180
    neverever1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 864 ✭✭✭neverever1


    What are the reasons for being anti-homosexual?


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  • #181
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    neverever1 wrote: »
    What are the reasons for being anti-homosexual?

    Middle ground would be nice. We are too liberal. They are backward.

    Backward places are best avoided for any number of reasons. I would guess homosexuality is illegal there (probably on religious grounds and beliefs) and they are clearly breaking the law if so. So the question remains should be il/legal. I've no problem with it being illegal, we can't forget homosexuality was illegal here only 30 or 40 years ago and these places are way behind us. What is wrong is the punishment.


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