Hypocritical Misandry

B0jangles · 30-03-2017 6:55pm

Look, this is AH so given the demographics of the place, a reasonable, civil and balanced discussion of gender issues is unlikely to occur. Your post above Pete is an example of the kind of conversation-as-battle, pointscoring above all else that I find completely unproductive.

e.g. 'The Feminism thread is there. Others have had to take personal attacks on the chin and carry on, so I don't see why you or anyone else can't do likewise. '

Insightful and reasoned discourse rarely uses the language of the boxing ring.

__Alex__ · 30-03-2017 7:00pm

Oh great, the multiquoting is back.

One eyed Jack · 30-03-2017 7:15pm

B0jangles wrote: »

Look, this is AH so given the demographics of the place, a reasonable, civil and balanced discussion of gender issues is unlikely to occur.

I think what you'll find is that there are fairly even numbers of both men and women in AH, but what you may find less of, is people who are interested in discussing gender equality from a feminist perspective, because of it's token nod to social issues that affect men and young boys in Irish society, not in spite of it, which you alluded to earlier when you suggested that feminism "acknowledged" men's issues. Of course the Ladies Lounge is probably going to be the most obvious place for a discussion on your terms where you can have your own echo chamber, but if you felt that your arguments had any legitimacy whatsoever they would be able to stand on their own merit without the "as a feminist" bit tacked on.

Just because an argument is coming from a feminist perspective, doesn't mean it should be immune from scrutiny or outright dismissal any more than people would scrutinise or dismiss arguments from the anti-feminist perspective that just didn't stand up.

__Alex__ · 30-03-2017 7:21pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think what you'll find is that there are fairly even numbers of both men and women in AH

I think it's something more like 65% male, 35% female.

The Black Oil · 30-03-2017 7:22pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Not a tea fan, but if I ever become one it'll be because I'm running a starship.

wakka12 · 30-03-2017 7:24pm

drugstore cowboy wrote: »

Saying it's hard to be a man doesn't make you a sexist lunatic despite what some might make you believe. The rates of suicide among young men in Ireland is evidence alone that being a man isn't easy.

The number of people who commit suicide are an extremely small subset of the population, men and women make up half the population each, so making such a bold statement based on the gender difference in one small statistic cannot accurately say who has a 'harder' life

tigger123 · 30-03-2017 7:25pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think what you'll find is that there are fairly even numbers of both men and women in AH, but what you may find less of, is people who are interested in discussing gender equality from a feminist perspective, because of it's token nod to social issues that affect men and young boys in Irish society, not in spite of it, which you alluded to earlier when you suggested that feminism "acknowledged" men's issues. Of course the Ladies Lounge is probably going to be the most obvious place for a discussion on your terms where you can have your own echo chamber, but if you felt that your arguments had any legitimacy whatsoever they would be able to stand on their own merit without the "as a feminist" bit tacked on.

Just because an argument is coming from a feminist perspective, doesn't mean it should be immune from scrutiny or outright dismissal any more than people would scrutinise or dismiss arguments from the anti-feminist perspective that just didn't stand up.

The usual suspects from the Men's Right thread and the Sexism You've Personally Experienced thread in The Gentlemen's Club usually end up all over other feminist/misandry threads on boards.ie. Funny that.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-03-2017 7:28pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Just because an argument is coming from a feminist perspective, doesn't mean it should be immune from scrutiny or outright dismissal any more than people would scrutinise or dismiss arguments from the anti-feminist perspective that just didn't stand up.

There's often not much scrutinising of arguments from a feminist perpsective here though, and I say that as someone who's not a fan of TLL. It's usually more like

"Domestic violence against women is a problem in Ireland"

"Oooh I better check my privilege you mad bitch/look what some batshít politician in the UK said about burqas/MEN ARE GOING TO RISE UP AGAINST THE FEMINAZIS/"

I don't know where people get any enjoyment from engaging in that level of...debate? Because it's sure as fcuk boring to read. Especially when there's like five threads on the first page of AH that you just know are going to be the same thing.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-03-2017 7:30pm

tigger123 wrote: »

The usual suspects from the Men's Right thread and the Sexism You've Personally Experienced thread in The Gentlemen's Club usually end up all over other feminist/misandry threads on boards.ie. Funny that.

I had quite high hopes for that thread. IRL I often advocate for men's issues in conversations and argue against some aspects of feminism and how people interpret it. But jesus it's bleak, and not in the way the people posting there seem to think.

__Alex__ · 30-03-2017 7:42pm

Caroline Juicy Verb wrote: »

I had quite high hopes for that thread. IRL I often advocate for men's issues in conversations and argue against some aspects of feminism and how people interpret it. But jesus it's bleak, and not in the way the people posting there seem to think.

The real issues raised in that thread are undermined by hypersensitive posters looking to take offense at every little thing. Much like extreme feminists. No different in fact.

Outlaw Pete · 30-03-2017 7:51pm

Funny how feminists are only outraged by whataboutery when it suits them.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-03-2017 7:55pm

Funny how people don't like identity politics except when they're dismissing arguments based on whether or not they think the poster is a feminist.

__Alex__ · 30-03-2017 7:56pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Funny how feminists are only outraged by whataboutery when it suits them.

There's that hoary old word 'outrage' again. At least reach for an ol' synonym there, Pete.

Anyhoo, to what feminists are you referring?

Cold Laser wrote: »

You do realise that simply pointing out nonsense and hypocricy is not the same as taking offense.

Welcome to boards, brand spanking new poster. o/

One eyed Jack · 30-03-2017 7:57pm

tigger123 wrote: »

The usual suspects from the Men's Right thread and the Sexism You've Personally Experienced thread in The Gentlemen's Club usually end up all over other feminist/misandry threads on boards.ie. Funny that.

It's not actually all that strange - people posting on topics that are of interest to them? I would have thought it was fairly obvious that the same cohort of posters would show up in threads that are of interest to them. Just look at any thread on religion or abortion on Boards - same cohort of posters, same insults, same poor arguments...

If i wanted an echo chamber for my views, I'd head to the forums where my views would never be challenged and would earn me plenty of appreciation amongst my anonymous internet peers, but then I'd probably learn ****all too.

One eyed Jack · 30-03-2017 8:19pm

Caroline Juicy Verb wrote: »

There's often not much scrutinising of arguments from a feminist perpsective here though, and I say that as someone who's not a fan of TLL. It's usually more like

"Domestic violence against women is a problem in Ireland"

"Oooh I better check my privilege you mad bitch/look what some batshít politician in the UK said about burqas/MEN ARE GOING TO RISE UP AGAINST THE FEMINAZIS/"

I don't know where people get any enjoyment from engaging in that level of...debate? Because it's sure as fcuk boring to read. Especially when there's like five threads on the first page of AH that you just know are going to be the same thing.

To give some of the posters who identify as feminists here their due though, they do try at least to acknowledge that we should all discuss gender equality in a framework that suits them, and with the usual "token nod to the menfolk of course who we'll get around to listening to later, but first they must listen to us".

Why, I ask you, would anyone who isn't a feminist, want to discuss gender issues in a feminist framework? It just doesn't make any sense? And it doesn't make any sense either to complain that people won't discuss issues on their terms. That's certainly not what I would consider likely to be a productive discussion!

I don't think it's at all fair to make sweeping generalisations about either TLL or TGC, or the posters in AH for that matter, where the demographic is anywhere from 17 to 70 odd, a mix of genders and sexual orientations, political and religious and non-religious views...

The very idea that one couldn't have a discussion on gender equality from a feminist perspective in AH because of "the demographic" of AH? Maybe it's just because their arguments are shìte.

That probably won't have occurred to them though, it's always anyone else's fault.

Zulu · 30-03-2017 8:25pm

tigger123 wrote: »

The usual suspects from t... Funny that.

yawn. Same can be said of both sides.

Wibbs · 30-03-2017 8:44pm

__Alex__ wrote: »

The real issues raised in that thread are undermined by hypersensitive posters looking to take offense at every little thing. Much like extreme feminists. No different in fact.

Indeed, there is too much of the element of that in the "gender war" bulshít for me. Whinging children of any gender irritate me. Never mind the daftness of following tumblr "feminists" down the rabbit hole of mind wilting daftness. Next we'll have some men going on about intersectionality or other such mind wankery.

As for the puff piece of the Independent rag noted in the OP? Well, as others have pointed out it is the Indo and what would you expect from a pig but a grunt. It's also part of an overall commercialisation going on and the "misandry" in adverts is of the same cloth.

Always follow the money. Why? Women make up the bulk of household purchases, one of the biggest wealth transfers in US history has been towards women(and I suspect similar in the rest of the western world), women are also far more targeted in general consumerism and seem to be more susceptible to the machinations of marketeers. They also tend to shop differently and can be less brand loyal(in certain areas)*. All this means Women™ tend to be a better market to appeal to. That Indo BS and the advertising stuff is plugging into all that, by making the woman the "hero", the savvy gender, (while chipping away at insecurities) and men are a bit doltish. Poor dears. Serves the market better. Because You're Worth It.

Look at fashion and beauty industries. For me(and I've said this before) and of course IMH, fashion can be extremely "sexist" and often dangerously so in the case of the effects on eating disorders and such. Preying on insecurities to drive the market a helluva lot of the time. Far more than with men**. The average 55 year old man is likely wearing the same clothes and haircut(if he has hair) he sported at 25. Far less likely with women. That quite the number of today's media "feminists" also fill their column inches with fashion is to me bewildering and ironic, considering the often negative aspects to the whole thing. "Rape culture", how to look sexy, Patriarchy, cellulite and ageing "cures" make for an odd orgy of bedfellows. The joke is on that score at least I'm actually more on the side of the more hardcore second wave 1960's feminists.

*I'd reckon there is a large cultural aspect to this, but in some areas nature may play a bigger part than nurture. EG in how men and women tend to shop.

** any man that thinks seeing some greased up steroid pumped eejit on the cover of DoYouEvenLiftBro monthly has his podgy self crying in his cornflakes to close the same degree that women are targeted everywhere else needs to get a clue. Ask the average 40 year old man how many diets he's been on, then ask the average 40 year old woman the same question and get back to me.

Wibbs · 30-03-2017 8:47pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Why, I ask you, would anyone who isn't a feminist, want to discuss gender issues in a feminist framework? It just doesn't make any sense?

Oh it makes sense alright, because feminism is seen as the correct philosophy, the given framework, therefore how could one not discuss gender outside it? That's the internal logic.

__Alex__ · 30-03-2017 9:08pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, there is too much of the element of that in the "gender war" bulshít for me. Whinging children of any gender irritate me. Never mind the daftness of following tumblr "feminists" down the rabbit hole of mind wilting daftness. Next we'll have some men going on about intersectionality or other such mind wankery.

Well, exactly. Why would anyone want to emulate eejity militant feminists? Especially if one has a problem with them. Why be what you hate?

Also agree with the 'follow the money' point. Why are there ladies night's where women go for free? Pure commercialism, businesses only care about the bottom line. Admit women for free and the men will follow, money in hand. That's all there is to it, and businesses wouldn't do it if it didn't bring in the spondools.

FishOnABike · 30-03-2017 9:17pm

tigger123 wrote: »

I've never met other men in real life that have the kind of chip on their shoulder attitude that I see on boards with regard to women, feminism, misandry and gender politics.

I think they're over represented on boards, in after hours and the sexism thread in The Gentleman's Club.

I've no clue why.

Perhaps they are things they find difficult to talk about or can't talk about in real life to people they know. Almost any man who has been through our family law system will know how unjustly they are treated but are gagged in real life by an in camera rule which seems to do more to protect some of the judiciary from exposure than it does to protect the parties.

Online they can unburden themselves a little in relative anonymity without disclosing too much personal information to those around them.

Just one reason, there's probably more than I can imagine.

storker · 30-03-2017 9:42pm

wakka12 wrote: »

The number of people who commit suicide are an extremely small subset of the population, men and women make up half the population each, so making such a bold statement based on the gender difference in one small statistic cannot accurately say who has a 'harder' life

That's not the point that was being made, though. Saying that higher suicide rates for men show that men's lives aren't necessarily all that easy, is not the same as saying men's lives are harder.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-03-2017 9:50pm

storker wrote: »

That's not the point that was being made, though. Saying that higher suicide rates for men how that men's lives aren't necessarily all that easy, is not the same as saying men's lives are harder.

I mean, maybe, possibly, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, it's not actually a competition? Maybe 'there are things that are difficult about being a woman' and 'there are things that are difficult about being a man' can both be true at the same time without the world exploding.

jimgoose · 30-03-2017 9:54pm

Caroline Juicy Verb wrote: »

I mean, maybe, possibly, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, it's not actually a competition? Maybe 'there are things that are difficult about being a woman' and 'there are things that are difficult about being a man' can both be true at the same time without the world exploding.

Yeah. Like, maybe, men and women might actually, like, complement and boost each other, or some such??

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-03-2017 9:57pm

jimgoose wrote: »

Yeah. Like, maybe, men and women might actually like, complement and boost each other, or some such?? ;D

I'm hardly going to bring my own ****ing bins out like

One eyed Jack · 30-03-2017 10:00pm

Caroline Juicy Verb wrote: »

I mean, maybe, possibly, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, it's not actually a competition? Maybe 'there are things that are difficult about being a woman' and 'there are things that are difficult about being a man' can both be true at the same time without the world exploding.

Reading the recent thread here about young girls having to go without sanitary products, and some women's accounts of their own experiences, it definitely had me thinking "Ohh thank fcuk I'm a man!!" :eek:

Outlaw Pete · 30-03-2017 10:08pm

Caroline Juicy Verb wrote: »

Funny how people don't like identity politics except when they're dismissing arguments based on whether or not they think the poster is a feminist.

Where did I dismiss anyone's argument, let alone dismiss their argument because I believed them, incorrectly or otherwise, to be a feminist? More BS. In fact, what I did was the exact opposite and I linked them to a thread on AH where they could post what it was that they seemed eager to. A thread, lets not forget, that they had initially said did not exist, but rather than then go and post on that thread, they instead turned their attention to the forum itself and said that well, AH was not a place where a reasonable, civil and balanced discussion of gender issues was likely to occur.

They then went on to speak about point scoring and I pointed out (with a post to back it up) that both sides have to deal with point scoring and instead of that point being respected and addressed, the fact that I used a boxing term was criticized! And now this brief interaction with this user is being framed as me dismissing her arguments? Yeah right.

jimgoose · 30-03-2017 10:09pm

Caroline Juicy Verb wrote: »

I'm hardly going to bring my own ****ing bins out like

Oh alright, I'll put out the Jaysis bins - that'll cost you one mate-an'-cabbitch dinner, but!

__Alex__ · 30-03-2017 10:25pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Where did I dismiss anyone's argument, let alone dismiss their argument because I believed them, incorrectly or otherwise, to be a feminist?

You never answered. To whom were you referring when you said 'feminists'? It clearly wasn't a standalone comment. Who did you have in mind?

Wibbs · 30-03-2017 10:27pm

Caroline Juicy Verb wrote: »

I mean, maybe, possibly, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, it's not actually a competition? Maybe 'there are things that are difficult about being a woman' and 'there are things that are difficult about being a man' can both be true at the same time without the world exploding.

Exactly EB, though for me anyway, that is precisely the problem I have with current "feminism", it is a competition and worse a rush to the bottom of victimhood*. That and the gerrymandering of facts to support the victimhood.

I just don't know or have known women like this. Certainly not the vast majority. That picture doesn't fit for me. Hell, even those women I have known who would describe themselves as card carrying "feminists" of the Tumblr variety and spout the patriarchy/rape culture stuff aren't like that, they aren't perpetual victims and that cognitive dissonance freaks me out. They're like dyed in the wool Christians who don't believe in God, yet keep preaching the Gospel. Does not compute for me.

Those women I have met who bought into this stuff and were true believers were always people who felt out of place, not quite fitting in, some with emotional insults that reflected in their daily lives and who were "victims". Just like the men I've met who bought into the Red Pill and MGTOW ballsology.

*Ditto with too many of the men's rights types. The MGTOW the apogee of that kind of shíte. Sack up for fcuk's sake. And if that "triggers" someone, add in more sack and get over yourself FFS.

hatrickpatrick · 30-03-2017 10:28pm

seamus wrote: »

And yes, I could see a male-oriented magazine/feature/supplement giving tips on how not to hate your wife after having kids.

Not in a mainstream newspaper. Not a f*cking chance. And certainly not unless it's central message was "remember, everything is your fault and you should apologise for even existing". :rolleyes:

Hypocritical Misandry

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