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Boundary Extension for City?
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longshanks wrote: »So if countrywide boundary extensions took place you'd be happy, but if it's only Waterfords boundary extending into Kilkenny you're upset? That's fairly pathetic. You think you're suffering from this so you adopt the attitude 'If we have to suffer everyone else should too'.
A rational reorganisation of boundaries does not necessarily involve any suffering. I see no suffering in having amalgamations of counties if that makes economic sense. Reducing the number of counties(e.g. one for the South-East) would save a considerable amount of money. Alternatively, arrange councils around the nearest main town as in the North.0 -
I'm sorry, but your deflection is shallow and pointless. And is just a deflection. Read the report - it makes a very strong, unambiguous case based on a wide range of socio-economic and environmental criteria. The view is based on best practice in terms of how cities are governed worldwide. A city that is fragmented like this is effectively being governed by two local authorities with very different agendas. This patently has not worked; Ferrybank as an urban entity is a failure in planning terms. The shopping centre is a living testament to the disregard that Kilkenny County Council has for city planning and for Waterford - it was a deliberate attempt to sabotage the city centre.
The report was very clear - that a boundary extension is warranted. This is known as 'evidence-based public policy'. I have yet to hear any convincing rational rebuttal of that proposal. All I have heard, aside from the childish rubbish, is -''prove things will be better for xxx living up in xxx''. Unfortunately, public policy doesn't work like that. It's time for a mature decision making process.
I've read the report. Can you point out to me where it specifically outlines the benefits or advantages? I see one or two parts saying that Waterford would doubtless benefit from the extension but no proper detailed reasoning to back this up. Indeed, it notes that much of the reason for the relative lack of North side development is historic with no proper bridge for vehicular traffic in place until the early 20th century, rather than blaming Kilkenny Co.Co..
As for deliberate sabotage, that's paranoia. At worst, it was possibly irresponsible to potentially weaken Waterford city's retail structure. But deliberate sabotage? Why would Kilkenny want to do this.0 -
Squidvicious wrote: ».
As for deliberate sabotage, that's paranoia. At worst, it was possibly irresponsible to potentially weaken Waterford city's retail structure. But deliberate sabotage? Why would Kilkenny want to do this.
If your asking this..it shows just how out of touch with reality you are!!0 -
Is there a date for this report to be acted upon or dismissed?0
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So, I take it all the Waterford and Kilkenny people here are in favour of an amalgamation of both local authorities?0
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It can be called the Three Rivers Authority and based in Waterford of course
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Squidvicious wrote: »A rational reorganisation of boundaries does not necessarily involve any suffering. I see no suffering in having amalgamations of counties if that makes economic sense. Reducing the number of counties(e.g. one for the South-East) would save a considerable amount of money. Alternatively, arrange councils around the nearest main town as in the North.
You're talking bollox. You know it too.0 -
longshanks wrote:You're talking bollox. You know it too.
It's not bollox at all really. Why wouldn't you amalgamate two or three smallish counties?0 -
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Johnboy1951 wrote: »Squidvicious wrote: »If you want change, the person arguing for it has got to make the case . What would Waterford do differently in Ferrybank if there is an extension?
The arguments have been made by the boundary commission.
The case has been made.
If you have an opposing view then critique its reasons for the boundary change.
This guy has no grasp on reality. Here he goes again with his "What would Waterford do differently?" It doesn't matter how many times that you tell him there is a huge shopping centre there empty for the last ten years which should never have been built along with the plethora of other issues. He still comes along and makes statements to the extent that nobody has been able to argue the case for it. We all have witnessed people speaking without thinking. But this is a whole new level of brain disengagement.0 -
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Max Powers wrote: »Kind of is bollix because that is not being discussed and not on the cards either.
My point is that I don't believe that the boundary extension will make any huge difference to Waterford. Amalgamations might, if only from a cost saving point of view. But I accept that amalgamations are probably never going to happen and aren't on the agenda.
I've read the boundary report and I can't recall any concrete benefits being put forward for the extension. It is suggested here that towns and cities need to be under one authority and that this is the norm internationally. Yet Dublin is divided in 4. Cork manages to limp along when it's urban area is divided between County and City. The other boundary reports recommended no change for Carlow or Athlone. Now I know that each town/city is different. But these facts suggest that the need for a boundary extension in Waterford is not half as clear cut as is made out here. It's not needed in other areas so, at the very least, it may not be needed here either. At most, an extension will lead to more housing on the North side of the river than would otherwise be the case. I fail to see how it makes a real difference to people's lives whether the next big housing estate is in Newrath or Gracedieu.
On the other hand, I've got to concede that there are no compelling reasons against the extension either. Funnily enough, I don't remember anyone making that point, though perhaps the point has been made previously on what is now a very long thread. I mean, we can't really say that our lives will be worse off under Waterford CC either. Identity? It does annoy me that this is entirely dismissed and even derided. If Tallow or Lismore were being transferred to Cork, people down there would be against it. Most of us feel some allegiance to our county. Is it really so hard to understand and respect our wish to remain part of Kilkenny which we regard as our county? By the same token, I have to accept that the identity argument isn't a slam dunk against the extension either. For one thing, there could well be a majority in favour in the affected area. You've been sending over planters and colonists for decades(before anyone goes nuts, that a joke, okay;)). Identity ought to be considered but it's one of many factors and isn't a trump card either way.
The shopping centre keeps coming up. It would be naïve to suggest that rates/development charges were not to some degree on the minds of KKCC when it approved the application. However, Ferrybank was growing at the time. Is it not possible that it was approved because of future growth projections for Ferrybank and as a way of stimulating further growth in the area? After all, that's what you want, isn't it, growth in Ferrybank? Or is it that you only want growth in Ferrybank if it's recognised as part of Waterford? As I've said before, an independent body, An Bord Pleanala, approved the application. In hindsight, it was a mistake but An Bord Pleanala didn't think so at the time.
I accept that I'm biased and looking at the matter with Black and Amber eyes. I ask for good reasons for the extension but I accept that I'd probably need something fairly miraculous to concede and say I support the move;). But you all need to recognise that you're all looking at the matter with Blue and White glasses so maybe you should think about it again and consider whether the extension will make any real difference.
My prediction? There will be a lot more housing in Ferrybank in the coming decades. Probably a bit more if it's part of Waterford. But it will make very little difference if any to most of us. It's a bureaucratic tidy-up exercise and little more.0 -
You're from Limerick, if I'm correct. Has the extension into Clare changed things much up there? Just to be clear, that's not a trick question. I know that you're in favour of a boundary extension down here(even if you're a neutral) but any effects from the Limerick extension might shed a bit of light on the debate here. And if you can't think of any, I don't think that necessarily means anything either way either! I know that none of us are urban planners so the fact that we don't spot these things doesn't mean they're not there!It's not bollox at all really. Why wouldn't you amalgamate two or three smallish counties?0 -
Squidvicious wrote: »You're from Limerick, if I'm correct. Has the extension into Clare changed things much up there? Just to be clear, that's not a trick question. I know that you're in favour of a boundary extension down here(even if you're a neutral) but any effects from the Limerick extension might shed a bit of light on the debate here. And if you can't think of any, I don't think that necessarily means anything either way either! I know that none of us are urban planners so the fact that we don't spot these things doesn't mean they're not there!
Yes, I am from Limerick. There is a large section of the northern part of the city (poulation 5000 or so) that is in Clare. It's still inClare, by the way. The extension was not granted because the Commission reckoned it was politically untenable to do so (it was the GAA argument). It's ****ty for the residents there because they have to deal with Clare County Council (based in Ennis about 25 miles away) for various services. Interestingly this section of Clare actually votes in the Limerick City Dail constituency (which makes sense) and they vote in the Ireland South Euro constituency (Clare is part of Ireland West). But I don't thnk the issue is as serious as it is in Waterford. There is no major industry in the area, no big retail centres and no important institutions such as hospitals, schools or colleges.
I was in favour of a boundary extension in Limerick and Waterford, but I've come round to thinking that it's a case of barking up the wrong tree. I think the extension is right in the sense that it makes absolutely no sense that a single urban area would have two local authorities over it. We had a situation in Limerick until 2014 where we had both the city and county councils in a tug of war situation, each overseeing what is effectively urban Limerick. It was a truly devastating situation. So many of the city's problems can be linked strongly to this. Since the 1950's the County Council had piggybacked on the economic driver that is Limerick City and encouraged very damaging peripheral development. It led to a lot of sprawl, major car dependency, the near death of the city centre and all the huge economic and social problems that go with these things. That administrative situation has been solved since the amalgamation in 2014, but it will take decades to fix things.
I think, in the great scheme of things, amalgamations of the local authorities makes far more sense than simply shifting boundaries. I don't say this because of the obvious financial savings and efficiencies that would accrue. Those would be benefits but they are incidental. The major advantage is that you would have a single authority, with a single plan overseeing a distinct economic region with a defined urban driver. That is massive. It would put these regions on a very strong footing not only in an Irish context but in a European one too. So, in summary, a biundary extension would be somewhat good for Waterford, but the amalgamation of the counties would be massively beneficial for the whole region.0 -
That is an interesting perspective. I can't say that I know Limerick terribly well but would have visited occasionally down the years. On recent visits, I have found the city centre very vibrant. This was not so much the case in the past which fits your description of the county council allowing too much suburban development which may have caused the doughnut effect on Limerick which you seem to me to be describing. That didn't really happen in Waterford. In theory, it could be because Waterford County Council was more responsible. More likely is that Limerick city grew much more in to Limerick County than Waterford city grew in to Waterford County so it wasn't really an option for Waterford County Council to do what Limerick County Council did. The 1980(?) boundary extension into Waterford County was big enough to ensure that that didn't happen in Waterford. The fear of "doughnutting" was what infuriated Waterford about the Ferrybank shopping centre. Undoubtedly, it was too big and KKCC granting permission was fuelled by a genuine desire to develop Ferrybank, delight at the rates they would receive and a lack of concern at possible ill effects on Waterford(but NOT sabotage - very few of us are that Machiavellian, no more than Limerick County Council wanted to damage Limerick city).Yes, I am from Limerick. There is a large section of the northern part of the city (poulation 5000 or so) that is in Clare. It's still inClare, by the way. The extension was not granted because the Commission reckoned it was politically untenable to do so (it was the GAA argument). It's ****ty for the residents there because they have to deal with Clare County Council (based in Ennis about 25 miles away) for various services. Interestingly this section of Clare actually votes in the Limerick City Dail constituency (which makes sense) and they vote in the Ireland South Euro constituency (Clare is part of Ireland West). But I don't thnk the issue is as serious as it is in Waterford. There is no major industry in the area, no big retail centres and no important institutions such as hospitals, schools or colleges.
I was in favour of a boundary extension in Limerick and Waterford, but I've come round to thinking that it's a case of barking up the wrong tree. I think the extension is right in the sense that it makes absolutely no sense that a single urban area would have two local authorities over it. We had a situation in Limerick until 2014 where we had both the city and county councils in a tug of war situation, each overseeing what is effectively urban Limerick. It was a truly devastating situation. So many of the city's problems can be linked strongly to this. Since the 1950's the County Council had piggybacked on the economic driver that is Limerick City and encouraged very damaging peripheral development. It led to a lot of sprawl, major car dependency, the near death of the city centre and all the huge economic and social problems that go with these things. That administrative situation has been solved since the amalgamation in 2014, but it will take decades to fix things.
I think, in the great scheme of things, amalgamations of the local authorities makes far more sense than simply shifting boundaries. I don't say this because of the obvious financial savings and efficiencies that would accrue. Those would be benefits but they are incidental. The major advantage is that you would have a single authority, with a single plan overseeing a distinct economic region with a defined urban driver. That is massive. It would put these regions on a very strong footing not only in an Irish context but in a European one too. So, in summary, a biundary extension would be somewhat good for Waterford, but the amalgamation of the counties would be massively beneficial for the whole region.
However, the amalgamation of Limerick city and county is a far better fit than the amalgamation of Waterford city and council. Limerick is the undisputed centre and capital of the county. However, Waterford is quite split along East/West lines with Dungarvan being joint county capital. Waterford sees itself as the capital of the South East with good reason. However, if I was in Kilkenny or Wexford, I could be forgiven for saying capital of the South East? Waterford city isn't even the capital of its own county. Waterford city's natural hinterland is county Waterford as far as perhaps kilmacthomas and south Kilkenny as far as perhaps Ballyhale and Mooncoin. It's a shame that a administrative area on those lines could not be constructed as that would probably fit most closely with the area's economic and social configuration. I accept that's extremely unlikely to ever happen!
Then again, you should probably ignore me as I talk bollocks, am embarrassing myself and am detached from reality 😜0 -
On a different note, I did have a sinking feeling before ever the report was published when I saw the members of the boundary committee. They were all Limerick based or had Limerick connections. It might be cynical to suggest that they were hand picked but coming from Limerick, they were bound to be sympathetic to Waterford's concerns. If only we could have had people from Clare or Roscommon 😀0
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Squidvicious wrote:On a different note, I did have a sinking feeling before ever the report was published when I saw the members of the boundary committee. They were all Limerick based or had Limerick connections. It might be cynical to suggest that they were hand picked but coming from Limerick, they were bound to be sympathetic to Waterford's concerns. If only we could have had people from Clare or Roscommon 😀
Interesting! Who are the members of the committee?0 -
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As an outsider I find this childish sniping about a boundary extension ridiculous and pathetic. It's like two 5 year old kids fighting over a toy fire engine in the playroom. Are adjacent counties in a small country really all that different? Come on!
As a person with expertise in urban geography and urban planning, it's depressing. Waterford should have expended its boundary into Kilkenny decades ago. The city needs balanced development on both sides of the Suir and the people of Ferrybank have been badly let down by Kilkenny County Council. Where are their voices in this "debate?"
The boundary extension is a no-brainier. Actually it would be better if Kilkenny, Waterford and Wexford were merged into one single entity but that just won't happen.0 -
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JupiterKid wrote: »As an outsider I find this childish sniping about a boundary extension ridiculous and pathetic. It's like two 5 year old kids fighting over a toy fire engine in the playroom. Are adjacent counties in a small country really all that different? Come on!
As a person with expertise in urban geography and urban planning, it's depressing. Waterford should have expended its boundary into Kilkenny decades ago. The city needs balanced development on both sides of the Suir and the people of Ferrybank have been badly let down by Kilkenny County Council. Where are their voices in this "debate?"
The boundary extension is a no-brainier. Actually it would be better if Kilkenny, Waterford and Wexford were merged into one single entity but that just won't happen.
Well, I'll defer to your knowledge in the urban planning area but as a resident(one of those voices that you say should be heard), I don't see that it will make a whole lot of difference to our lives one way or another - lots of other towns and cities seem to manage just fine split between different councils e.g. Cork. As a resident in Ferrybank, I do not feel let down by KKCC and the stories about neglected estates in Ferrybank is something that I'm simply not familiar with as a resident. As I've said before, however, I do accept that there's no major argument AGAINST the extension either. Indeed, it would be a logical contradiction if I said on the one hand that a boundary extension won't change things hugely while simultaneously arguing that maintaining the status quo would be a better option.
Coveney(probably the next FG leader) released a statement over Christmas that he wanted to see Waterford expand and on both sides of the river. The point that I'm trying to make is that simply saying that you want Waterford to expand or that you want it to expand on the North side really isn't the point. If you really want to develop Ferrybank, the first thing that you need to do is to put in a second bridge. If you want to expand Waterford, stop slicing away at the hospital and upgrade the IT to a university(or even better, give Waterford a greenfield university and let the IT stay as it is). Try to direct foreign investment to Waterford(though I accept that multinationals invest where they want to invest and not necessarily where the IDA tells them to go). If Coveney is serious about expanding Waterford, the boundary extension ought to be only a very small appetiser to the main course of proper investment in Waterford. My fear for Waterford would be that when Waterford looks for more investment after the extension(if it happens) it will be told to "feck off, lads, didn't we give you your boundary extension?".
Before anyone jumps down my throat 'cos there's been a bit of that(good morning, fuzzy Dunlop!!), I accept that the above is not DIRECTLY relevant to the question of whether there ought to be a boundary extension or not. I'm just trying to bring a little (in my view) reality to matters. By all means have the extension if you must - I'm a biased Co. Kilkenny man and in my perverse way, I'd prefer that it didn't go ahead, but I can't really say that there are any good economic or other arguments against it. But it's just not going to be a game changer for Waterford by any means, contrary to what some people think. Waterford has far bigger issues facing it.0 -
OK, from a Ferrybank residences point of view there is no 'real' reason for not expanding the boundary. I also accept there is no compelling reason to do so in your experience. Nevertheless planners (who are supposed to know about these things) say it is the correct thing to do. Fair enough.
On the other points, particularly about the second bridge, it is planned, but I have a feeling (unfounded) that without the boundary extension it will not happen any time soon.
The bridge would also make the hospital more accessible to the region and would encourage further investment. The second bridge would be quite close to Ardkeen, and linked via an outer bypass to the motorway/Cork road.
The Uni status claim would also be bolstered, and IF it ever came to fruition would help greatly in the region (not just Waterford) to allow the less well-off to access third level education reasonably locally.
Most investment (manufacturing/services) would look a lot more favourably on a region that has a Uni and good and clear access to all facilities, and of course a highly educated pool of labour.
Without the boundary extension the rest might not fail completely, but it surely would hinder development in many areas.0 -
Squid, I think you are really underestimating just how important to a city or region is the structure of its administration. At best, having two local authorities in a tug of war with each other over what is a single urban/economic area really makes no sense, and at worst it leads to fairly devastating consequences (such as in Limerick). The GAA argument really shouldn't come into this. Why are GAA teams aligned by county in any case? If the extension goes ahead there's nothing stopping anybody in Ferrybank continuing to play or shout for Kilkenny, is there?0
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Squid, I think you are really underestimating just how important to a city or region is the structure of its administration. At best, having two local authorities in a tug of war with each other over what is a single urban/economic area really makes no sense, and at worst it leads to fairly devastating consequences (such as in Limerick). The GAA argument really shouldn't come into this. Why are GAA teams aligned by county in any case? If the extension goes ahead there's nothing stopping anybody in Ferrybank continuing to play or shout for Kilkenny, is there?
Perhaps I am. As I say, I'm pretty biased on this one;)
I am a member of a Countywide(Kilkenny) organisation(not GAA). Not sure if I can really remain as such after the extension. As for GAA, I'm not sure that we really can shout for Kilkenny. We won't be part of Co. Kilkenny anymore, will we? Perhaps some recognition that the area remains technically Kilkenny could be arranged but I really can't see it happening. But I do agree that the above can't stop the extension if there's good reason for it.0 -
Squidvicious wrote: »Perhaps I am. As I say, I'm pretty biased on this one;)
I am a member of a Countywide(Kilkenny) organisation(not GAA). Not sure if I can really remain as such after the extension. As for GAA, I'm not sure that we really can shout for Kilkenny. We won't be part of Co. Kilkenny anymore, will we? Perhaps some recognition that the area remains technically Kilkenny could be arranged but I really can't see it happening. But I do agree that the above can't stop the extension if there's good reason for it.
If you moved residence to Wexford or Waterford would that make a difference?
Would you not still be from Kilkenny and have Kilkenny interests?
I see little difference there TBH. So your residence will be in Waterford, but you are still from Kilkenny.0 -
Johnboy1951 wrote: »OK, from a Ferrybank residences point of view there is no 'real' reason for not expanding the boundary. I also accept there is no compelling reason to do so in your experience. Nevertheless planners (who are supposed to know about these things) say it is the correct thing to do. Fair enough.
On the other points, particularly about the second bridge, it is planned, but I have a feeling (unfounded) that without the boundary extension it will not happen any time soon.
The bridge would also make the hospital more accessible to the region and would encourage further investment. The second bridge would be quite close to Ardkeen, and linked via an outer bypass to the motorway/Cork road.
The Uni status claim would also be bolstered, and IF it ever came to fruition would help greatly in the region (not just Waterford) to allow the less well-off to access third level education reasonably locally.
Most investment (manufacturing/services) would look a lot more favourably on a region that has a Uni and good and clear access to all facilities, and of course a highly educated pool of labour.
Without the boundary extension the rest might not fail completely, but it surely would hinder development in many areas.
There may be something in what you say, I will grudgingly accept:P, though I do think that accusations of Kilkenny hamstringing development in the past are exaggerated.
As I've said to Zulu, I'm black and amber biased! One thing that we can probably/possibly all agree on, however, is that if Waterford is to expand, it badly needs more investment and that the boundary extension alone will not be enough by a long chalk.0 -
Squidvicious wrote: »There may be something in what you say, I will grudgingly accept:P, though I do think that accusations of Kilkenny hamstringing development in the past are exaggerated.
As I've said to Zulu, I'm black and amber biased! One thing that we can probably/possibly all agree on, however, is that if Waterford is to expand, it badly needs more investment and that the boundary extension alone will not be enough by a long chalk.
I agree completely, but would add that the boundary extension is probably the cornerstone of future plans and investment opportunities.
While admittedly the major portion of the benefit would accrue to Waterford city and immediate surrounds, it would also be of benefit to the region as a whole.0 -
I think Kilkenny folks, instead of reaching for the pitchforks in the thatch, should perhaps start arguing for a better alternative that will also benefit Kilkenny, and that would of course be an amalgamation of both counties!
Now, you say that a boundary extension won't be enough but this suggests that you see it as simply a redrawing of lines on a map, and I think you are really underestimating the importance of having a good administrative structure. A boundary extension would lead to far more efficient and sensible planning of the city, and that in turn would lead to investment, infrastructure, etc. That is, it's an enabler. It's universally acknowledged that when the 5 burroughs of New York were brought under the one authority in the late 1800's that this enabled the huge subsequent development of the city. There were very significant other factors too, of course, but the expansion could not have happened to the same degree if those 5 burroughs were continuing to compete with each other. Of course, there was huge resistance back then too. People couldn't see how it would change anything and vested interests fought against it. Now, with the benefit of hindsight we can see just how important that decision was. Indeed, the history of NYC is generally written in the context of pre and post 1898, such was the dramatic change that occurred from that year onwards.0 -
Johnboy1951 wrote: »I agree completely, but would add that the boundary extension is probably the cornerstone of future plans and investment opportunities.
While admittedly the major portion of the benefit would accrue to Waterford city and immediate surrounds, it would also be of benefit to the region as a whole.
Only time will really settle that one. Of course, you may be right but I think that it's also possible that you're overestimating the extension's importance. We'll have to come back to this, say, ten years in the future and see who's right!0 -
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I think Kilkenny folks, instead of reaching for the pitchforks in the thatch, should perhaps start arguing for a better alternative that will also benefit Kilkenny, and that would of course be an amalgamation of both counties!
Now, you say that a boundary extension won't be enough but this suggests that you see it as simply a redrawing of lines on a map, and I think you are really underestimating the importance of having a good administrative structure. A boundary extension would lead to far more efficient and sensible planning of the city, and that in turn would lead to investment, infrastructure, etc. That is, it's an enabler. It's universally acknowledged that when the 5 burroughs of New York were brought under the one authority in the late 1800's that this enabled the huge subsequent development of the city. There were very significant other factors too, of course, but the expansion could not have happened to the same degree if those 5 burroughs were continuing to compete with each other. Of course, there was huge resistance back then too. People couldn't see how it would change anything and vested interests fought against it. Now, with the benefit of hindsight we can see just how important that decision was. Indeed, the history of NYC is generally written in the context of pre and post 1898, such was the dramatic change that occurred from that year onwards.
We'll keep those pitchforks, thank you very much. Sure, won't they be needed to repel the Deise invasion forces;)?
I'm in favour of an amalgamation, preferably with Wexford and South Tipp added in too. That's not on the agenda, however. Let's face it, nothing like that's going to happen in Ireland.0
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