longshanks wrote: » So if countrywide boundary extensions took place you'd be happy, but if it's only Waterfords boundary extending into Kilkenny you're upset? That's fairly pathetic. You think you're suffering from this so you adopt the attitude 'If we have to suffer everyone else should too'.
mire wrote: » I'm sorry, but your deflection is shallow and pointless. And is just a deflection. Read the report - it makes a very strong, unambiguous case based on a wide range of socio-economic and environmental criteria. The view is based on best practice in terms of how cities are governed worldwide. A city that is fragmented like this is effectively being governed by two local authorities with very different agendas. This patently has not worked; Ferrybank as an urban entity is a failure in planning terms. The shopping centre is a living testament to the disregard that Kilkenny County Council has for city planning and for Waterford - it was a deliberate attempt to sabotage the city centre.The report was very clear - that a boundary extension is warranted. This is known as 'evidence-based public policy'. I have yet to hear any convincing rational rebuttal of that proposal. All I have heard, aside from the childish rubbish, is -''prove things will be better for xxx living up in xxx''. Unfortunately, public policy doesn't work like that. It's time for a mature decision making process.
Squidvicious wrote: » . As for deliberate sabotage, that's paranoia. At worst, it was possibly irresponsible to potentially weaken Waterford city's retail structure. But deliberate sabotage? Why would Kilkenny want to do this.
zulutango wrote: So, I take it all the Waterford and Kilkenny people here are in favour of an amalgamation of both local authorities?
zulutango wrote: » So, I take it all the Waterford and Kilkenny people here are in favour of an amalgamation of both local authorities?
Squidvicious wrote: » A rational reorganisation of boundaries does not necessarily involve any suffering. I see no suffering in having amalgamations of counties if that makes economic sense. Reducing the number of counties(e.g. one for the South-East) would save a considerable amount of money. Alternatively, arrange councils around the nearest main town as in the North.
longshanks wrote: You're talking bollox. You know it too.
Johnboy1951 wrote: » Squidvicious wrote: » If you want change, the person arguing for it has got to make the case . What would Waterford do differently in Ferrybank if there is an extension? The arguments have been made by the boundary commission. The case has been made. If you have an opposing view then critique its reasons for the boundary change.
Squidvicious wrote: » If you want change, the person arguing for it has got to make the case . What would Waterford do differently in Ferrybank if there is an extension?
zulutango wrote: » It's not bollox at all really. Why wouldn't you amalgamate two or three smallish counties?
Max Powers wrote: » Kind of is bollix because that is not being discussed and not on the cards either.
Squidvicious wrote: » You're from Limerick, if I'm correct. Has the extension into Clare changed things much up there? Just to be clear, that's not a trick question. I know that you're in favour of a boundary extension down here(even if you're a neutral) but any effects from the Limerick extension might shed a bit of light on the debate here. And if you can't think of any, I don't think that necessarily means anything either way either! I know that none of us are urban planners so the fact that we don't spot these things doesn't mean they're not there!
zulutango wrote: » Yes, I am from Limerick. There is a large section of the northern part of the city (poulation 5000 or so) that is in Clare. It's still inClare, by the way. The extension was not granted because the Commission reckoned it was politically untenable to do so (it was the GAA argument). It's ****ty for the residents there because they have to deal with Clare County Council (based in Ennis about 25 miles away) for various services. Interestingly this section of Clare actually votes in the Limerick City Dail constituency (which makes sense) and they vote in the Ireland South Euro constituency (Clare is part of Ireland West). But I don't thnk the issue is as serious as it is in Waterford. There is no major industry in the area, no big retail centres and no important institutions such as hospitals, schools or colleges. I was in favour of a boundary extension in Limerick and Waterford, but I've come round to thinking that it's a case of barking up the wrong tree. I think the extension is right in the sense that it makes absolutely no sense that a single urban area would have two local authorities over it. We had a situation in Limerick until 2014 where we had both the city and county councils in a tug of war situation, each overseeing what is effectively urban Limerick. It was a truly devastating situation. So many of the city's problems can be linked strongly to this. Since the 1950's the County Council had piggybacked on the economic driver that is Limerick City and encouraged very damaging peripheral development. It led to a lot of sprawl, major car dependency, the near death of the city centre and all the huge economic and social problems that go with these things. That administrative situation has been solved since the amalgamation in 2014, but it will take decades to fix things. I think, in the great scheme of things, amalgamations of the local authorities makes far more sense than simply shifting boundaries. I don't say this because of the obvious financial savings and efficiencies that would accrue. Those would be benefits but they are incidental. The major advantage is that you would have a single authority, with a single plan overseeing a distinct economic region with a defined urban driver. That is massive. It would put these regions on a very strong footing not only in an Irish context but in a European one too. So, in summary, a biundary extension would be somewhat good for Waterford, but the amalgamation of the counties would be massively beneficial for the whole region.
Squidvicious wrote: On a different note, I did have a sinking feeling before ever the report was published when I saw the members of the boundary committee. They were all Limerick based or had Limerick connections. It might be cynical to suggest that they were hand picked but coming from Limerick, they were bound to be sympathetic to Waterford's concerns. If only we could have had people from Clare or Roscommon 😀
zulutango wrote: » Interesting! Who are the members of the committee?
JupiterKid wrote: » As an outsider I find this childish sniping about a boundary extension ridiculous and pathetic. It's like two 5 year old kids fighting over a toy fire engine in the playroom. Are adjacent counties in a small country really all that different? Come on! As a person with expertise in urban geography and urban planning, it's depressing. Waterford should have expended its boundary into Kilkenny decades ago. The city needs balanced development on both sides of the Suir and the people of Ferrybank have been badly let down by Kilkenny County Council. Where are their voices in this "debate?" The boundary extension is a no-brainier. Actually it would be better if Kilkenny, Waterford and Wexford were merged into one single entity but that just won't happen.
zulutango wrote: » Squid, I think you are really underestimating just how important to a city or region is the structure of its administration. At best, having two local authorities in a tug of war with each other over what is a single urban/economic area really makes no sense, and at worst it leads to fairly devastating consequences (such as in Limerick). The GAA argument really shouldn't come into this. Why are GAA teams aligned by county in any case? If the extension goes ahead there's nothing stopping anybody in Ferrybank continuing to play or shout for Kilkenny, is there?
Squidvicious wrote: » Perhaps I am. As I say, I'm pretty biased on this one;)I am a member of a Countywide(Kilkenny) organisation(not GAA). Not sure if I can really remain as such after the extension. As for GAA, I'm not sure that we really can shout for Kilkenny. We won't be part of Co. Kilkenny anymore, will we? Perhaps some recognition that the area remains technically Kilkenny could be arranged but I really can't see it happening. But I do agree that the above can't stop the extension if there's good reason for it.
Johnboy1951 wrote: » OK, from a Ferrybank residences point of view there is no 'real' reason for not expanding the boundary. I also accept there is no compelling reason to do so in your experience. Nevertheless planners (who are supposed to know about these things) say it is the correct thing to do. Fair enough. On the other points, particularly about the second bridge, it is planned, but I have a feeling (unfounded) that without the boundary extension it will not happen any time soon. The bridge would also make the hospital more accessible to the region and would encourage further investment. The second bridge would be quite close to Ardkeen, and linked via an outer bypass to the motorway/Cork road. The Uni status claim would also be bolstered, and IF it ever came to fruition would help greatly in the region (not just Waterford) to allow the less well-off to access third level education reasonably locally. Most investment (manufacturing/services) would look a lot more favourably on a region that has a Uni and good and clear access to all facilities, and of course a highly educated pool of labour. Without the boundary extension the rest might not fail completely, but it surely would hinder development in many areas.
Squidvicious wrote: » There may be something in what you say, I will grudgingly accept:P, though I do think that accusations of Kilkenny hamstringing development in the past are exaggerated. As I've said to Zulu, I'm black and amber biased! One thing that we can probably/possibly all agree on, however, is that if Waterford is to expand, it badly needs more investment and that the boundary extension alone will not be enough by a long chalk.
Johnboy1951 wrote: » I agree completely, but would add that the boundary extension is probably the cornerstone of future plans and investment opportunities. While admittedly the major portion of the benefit would accrue to Waterford city and immediate surrounds, it would also be of benefit to the region as a whole.
zulutango wrote: » I think Kilkenny folks, instead of reaching for the pitchforks in the thatch, should perhaps start arguing for a better alternative that will also benefit Kilkenny, and that would of course be an amalgamation of both counties! Now, you say that a boundary extension won't be enough but this suggests that you see it as simply a redrawing of lines on a map, and I think you are really underestimating the importance of having a good administrative structure. A boundary extension would lead to far more efficient and sensible planning of the city, and that in turn would lead to investment, infrastructure, etc. That is, it's an enabler. It's universally acknowledged that when the 5 burroughs of New York were brought under the one authority in the late 1800's that this enabled the huge subsequent development of the city. There were very significant other factors too, of course, but the expansion could not have happened to the same degree if those 5 burroughs were continuing to compete with each other. Of course, there was huge resistance back then too. People couldn't see how it would change anything and vested interests fought against it. Now, with the benefit of hindsight we can see just how important that decision was. Indeed, the history of NYC is generally written in the context of pre and post 1898, such was the dramatic change that occurred from that year onwards.
