"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 02:17PM

Sadly, it doesn't shock me.
It makes me sick - but it doesn't shock me.

It's just one more proof that ordinary citizens were trampled underfoot. Whether by the rich, the religious, the medical profession, or whoever - our "superiors":rolleyes: didn't like it when we asked questions.
They always knew better than the plebs. - in their own opinion anyway.

Strangely enough, being the contrary individual that I am - I've always disagreed with that stance!:D

Fear not; many found ways to get around all that.

In fairness, a lot of the criticism is pursuing a clear agenda to completely eliminate the RCC. I would defend the Church against that - because I believe there are plenty of good people in the Church.

Indeed there are and they are hurting in many ways now.

I won't offer a defence against wrongdoing, though. I just refuse to tar everyone with the same brush, because that's neither fair, nor accurate.

Some people don't seem to be able to work out the difference.

I didn't even know a "Catholic answers" forum existed![/QUOTE]

https://forums.catholic.com/

There ye go!

Have a look at the "catholic news" part... HOAX! I did some good there..

Avoid the theology sections!

Seriously as you say there are some good and kind folk there, there really are. I am amazed I managed to stay as long as I did. Kept getting accused of "Ireland bashing" as they want to think we are all saints and scholars who cabbage and bacon every day. Bless the tourist industry!

ohnonotgmail · 13-03-2017 02:20PM

Graces7 wrote: »

No that was not done.

In fact the babies who were to be sold were chosen before they were born; Genetics you know :rolleyes: Not just any baby.... Parentage etc mattered.

So these babies were well cared for , well fed, and I suspect as someone on the Catholic Answer list who was saying that none of the negligence was true, mentioned photos showing healthy babies that these babies'photos were used as publicity for the home .

We will see from the records. But that is what I have learned from an impeccable source.

Well if they wanted to get the best price for them it was in their interests to look after them. I imagine the same applies to a suckling calf.

13-03-2017 03:01PM

Graces7 wrote: »

I didn't even know a "Catholic answers" forum existed!

https://forums.catholic.com/

There ye go!

Have a look at the "catholic news" part... HOAX! I did some good there..

Avoid the theology sections!

Seriously as you say there are some good and kind folk there, there really are. I am amazed I managed to stay as long as I did. Kept getting accused of "Ireland bashing" as they want to think we are all saints and scholars who cabbage and bacon every day. Bless the tourist industry![/QUOTE]

Thanks. I've already had a quick look.

From what I've seen so far, so good people there, and some that fit the "there are none so blind as those who will not see", description.

I prefer to see the good - because they are the people who slowly bring change.

We can change nothing from outside the Church. Neither can we change anything with hate.

But we can bring change for the good.

I would argue that it is what we are supposed to do....

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 03:08PM

From what I've seen so far, so good people there, and some that fit the "there are none so blind as those who will not see", description.

I prefer to see the good - because they are the people who slowly bring change.

We can change nothing from outside the Church. Neither can we change anything with hate.

But we can bring change for the good.

I would argue that it is what we are supposed to do....[/QUOTE]

They are at best insecure on CathAns. They have a safety net they dare not question.. and the the power thing too of course.

I tackled them on NFP etc! That was... interesting....they have eased some r some things. and their scrupulosity

Maybe many realise the truth re Tuam but cannot face it? that happens here too

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-03-2017 06:54PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Nooooooooooo ! A million times no.

Well argued. Mmmmm. When you put it like that, yes, I suppose you make a good point. And well argued. The logic is good, yes, and I must admit, I find it difficult to find a weakness in it. You may well have a case, and its possible I am wrong. I will consider my position again not in the light of the strong case you express so well. You have added so much here to the debate.

13-03-2017 07:51PM

If like me you've wondered what investigations the state did into RCC homes etc at the time, Drivetime this afternoon was very informative on the state's 1930 Carrigan Committee. Listen back here:

1930/31 Carrigan Committee

13-03-2017 08:58PM

Graces7 wrote: »

From what I've seen so far, so good people there, and some that fit the "there are none so blind as those who will not see", description.

I prefer to see the good - because they are the people who slowly bring change.

We can change nothing from outside the Church. Neither can we change anything with hate.

But we can bring change for the good.

I would argue that it is what we are supposed to do....

They are at best insecure on CathAns. They have a safety net they dare not question.. and the the power thing too of course.

I tackled them on NFP etc! That was... interesting....they have eased some r some things. and their scrupulosity

Maybe many realise the truth re Tuam but cannot face it? that happens here too[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I think you're right that maybe some recognise the truth, but can't face it.

Others are in complete denial, and, strangely enough, it's not always because they are bad people (imo), sometimes it's because they just cannot face the fact that good and evil can be, (and often are), found side by side.

I'm thinking in particular of someone I know, who took ages to accept that the sexual abuse scandals were true.
That person is what would generally be described as "good". She visits the elderly, and the sick, helps anyone she can, prays a lot, - and could not accept that such perversion could have existed.

Neither was it that she didn't have sympathy for the victims. She just had believed so implicitly in the Church that she found it impossible to differentiate between the idea that all her belief about the Church was wrong, and the fact that some members of the Church didn't behave in line with Church teachings, to put it mildly.

She does accept it now, and was able to accept that the Tuam babies exist - but the challenge to what she always thought was true, in the early days, made her really struggle, and it took her a long time to get over that denial.

Different people react in different ways.
My own reaction to that kind of denial is to challenge it, but gently. Most of these people are probably not "bad", imo, - more a case of they have no idea how to cope, and the constant calls for the church to be dismantled etc. makes them defensive.
So, they hurt people without realising what they're doing.
And, such people will always exist, because different people have different coping mechanisms, and denial is a very common one.

Don't take it personally. Most of the time, it's probably not meant that way.

sondagefaux · 13-03-2017 11:11PM

Graces7 wrote: »

No that was not done.

In fact the babies who were to be sold were chosen before they were born; Genetics you know :rolleyes: Not just any baby.... Parentage etc mattered.

So these babies were well cared for , well fed, and I suspect as someone on the Catholic Answer list who was saying that none of the negligence was true, mentioned photos showing healthy babies that these babies'photos were used as publicity for the home .

We will see from the records. But that is what I have learned from an impeccable source.

What was not done? Telling parents that their children were dead so they could be illegally adopted by US couples?

We'll see if the theory is true or not.

It was done by nuns in Spain:

An elderly Spanish nun appeared in court on Thursday to face charges of stealing babies, after claims by hundreds of women that their infants were taken from them at birth and given away in illegal adoptions.

Doctors, nurses and religious workers at several clinics and hospitals in Spain are alleged to have sold babies for adoption over decades, after telling new mothers that their infants had died.

At the hearing at Madrid's Superior Tribunal of Justice, Maria Gomez Valbuena, a Sisters of Charity nun now in her 80s who once worked in the Santa Cristina hospital in Madrid, became the first person accused in the widening scandal.

Clad in a dark habit, she was questioned by a judge but invoked her right not to testify.

The formal charges against her are of illegal detention and falsifying documents in a case dating from the early 1980s.

A crowd of mothers who say they were robbed of their babies shouted "shameless" at the grim-faced nun as she was escorted out of the court through a throng of journalists to a car.

http://www.eitb.eus/en/news/life/detail/866639/babystealing-scandal--aged-spanish-nun-appears-court/

Up to 300,000 Spanish babies were stolen from their parents and sold for adoption over a period of five decades, a new investigation reveals.

The children were trafficked by a secret network of doctors, nurses, priests and nuns in a widespread practice that began during General Franco’s dictatorship and continued until the early Nineties.

Hundreds of families who had babies taken from Spanish hospitals are now battling for an official government investigation into the scandal.

Several mothers say they were told their first-born children had died during or soon after they gave birth.

But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial.

In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.

Official documents were forged so the adoptive parents’ names were on the infants’ birth certificates.

In many cases it is believed they were unaware that the child they received had been stolen, as they were usually told the birth mother had given them up.

Journalist Katya Adler, who has investigated the scandal, says: ‘The situation is incredibly sad for thousands of people.

‘There are men and women across Spain whose lives have been turned upside-down by discovering the people they thought were their parents actually bought them for cash. There are also many mothers who have maintained for years that their babies did not die – and were labelled “hysterical” – but are now discovering that their child has probably been alive and brought up by somebody else all this time.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049647/BBC-documentary-exposes-50-year-scandal-baby-trafficking-Catholic-church-Spain.html

It would be pretty naive not to at least investigate the possibility this happened in Ireland too.

Graces7 · 14-03-2017 07:16AM

Deleted User wrote: »

They are at best insecure on CathAns. They have a safety net they dare not question.. and the the power thing too of course.

I tackled them on NFP etc! That was... interesting....they have eased some r some things. and their scrupulosity

Maybe many realise the truth re Tuam but cannot face it? that happens here too

Agreed. I think you're right that maybe some recognise the truth, but can't face it.

Others are in complete denial, and, strangely enough, it's not always because they are bad people (imo), sometimes it's because they just cannot face the fact that good and evil can be, (and often are), found side by side.

I'm thinking in particular of someone I know, who took ages to accept that the sexual abuse scandals were true.
That person is what would generally be described as "good". She visits the elderly, and the sick, helps anyone she can, prays a lot, - and could not accept that such perversion could have existed.

Neither was it that she didn't have sympathy for the victims. She just had believed so implicitly in the Church that she found it impossible to differentiate between the idea that all her belief about the Church was wrong, and the fact that some members of the Church didn't behave in line with Church teachings, to put it mildly.

She does accept it now, and was able to accept that the Tuam babies exist - but the challenge to what she always thought was true, in the early days, made her really struggle, and it took her a long time to get over that denial.

Different people react in different ways.
My own reaction to that kind of denial is to challenge it, but gently. Most of these people are probably not "bad", imo, - more a case of they have no idea how to cope, and the constant calls for the church to be dismantled etc. makes them defensive.
So, they hurt people without realising what they're doing.
And, such people will always exist, because different people have different coping mechanisms, and denial is a very common one.

Don't take it personally. Most of the time, it's probably not meant that way.[/QUOTE]

Someone i knew used to say that there are two kinds of innocence. The kind that knows nothing and the kind that knows all and chooses the pure. Seasoned warriors... ie they do not let the evil make them angry and bitter.

And whatever, we do not take our hurt out on anyone else. The rot stops here.

Many are not yet ready for truth; we have no right to destroy them

Quite sure I will have been banned on cathans though! although I had been there long long time and made friends.

Graces7 · 14-03-2017 07:18AM

sondagefaux wrote: »

What was not done? Telling parents that their children were dead so they could be illegally adopted by US couples?

We'll see if the theory is true or not.

It was done by nuns in Spain:

http://www.eitb.eus/en/news/life/detail/866639/babystealing-scandal--aged-spanish-nun-appears-court/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049647/BBC-documentary-exposes-50-year-scandal-baby-trafficking-Catholic-church-Spain.html

It would be pretty naive not to at least investigate the possibility this happened in Ireland too.

It has already been challenged and sorted here. . Trust me on that.

JupiterKid · 14-03-2017 07:29AM

I read a post from a FB friend that there is to be no Gardai investigation into the Tuam remains. Is this true? If so, it's outrageous!:mad:

Graces7 · 14-03-2017 07:43AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

I read a post from a FB friend that there is to be no Gardai investigation into the Tuam remains. Is this true? If so, it's outrageous!:mad:

Probably true and has been predictable.

There was no "crime" in the sense the Gardai apply the word. No actual murders.

Totally wrong but there we are.

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 08:10AM

end of the road wrote: »

they were dumped down a ceptic tank.

1. There has been no suggestion by anyone involved that they were dumped. It was an emotive term introduced by the media.
2. The septic tank that the remains were left in was not, to our knowledge, used for anything such as storing waster or sewage.

sondagefaux · 14-03-2017 09:09AM

The fact remains that none of the babies were given burials of the type that children born in marriage were given.

Dumped seems the most apt word.

It's 'emotional'?

If we're not allowed to use emotional language about hundreds of dead babies, when are we allowed to be emotional?

Dr Strange · 14-03-2017 09:40AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

I read a post from a FB friend that there is to be no Gardai investigation into the Tuam remains. Is this true? If so, it's outrageous!:mad:

Graces7 wrote: »

Probably true and has been predictable.

There was no "crime" in the sense the Gardai apply the word. No actual murders.

Totally wrong but there we are.

If that's the case then there is no involvement of forensic anthropologists and pathologists in investigating the remains and they will remain with the archaeologists and osteoarchaeologists. This is not how this would be investigated in other countries but it is not surprising.

ohnonotgmail · 14-03-2017 09:46AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Probably true and has been predictable.

There was no "crime" in the sense the Gardai apply the word. No actual murders.

Totally wrong but there we are.

Unless a disused septic tank was approved as a place of burial then a crime has been committed. hundreds of crimes.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1948/act/3/enacted/en/print#sec44

you cant just dump inconvenient dead bodies wherever you like.

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 10:00AM

Well, taking a step back, what constitutes an approved burial place?
Who approves it?
Could an underground crypt on their grounds (where other burial plots are)be considered as an approved burial place?

ohnonotgmail · 14-03-2017 10:06AM

kbannon wrote: »

Well, taking a step back, what constitutes an approved burial place?
Who approves it?
Could an underground crypt on their grounds (where other burial plots are)be considered as an approved burial place?

the act is quite clear on the first two points. A septic tank is not an underground crypt.

14-03-2017 11:04AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Someone i knew used to say that there are two kinds of innocence. The kind that knows nothing and the kind that knows all and chooses the pure. Seasoned warriors... ie they do not let the evil make them angry and bitter.

And whatever, we do not take our hurt out on anyone else. The rot stops here.

Many are not yet ready for truth; we have no right to destroy them

Quite sure I will have been banned on cathans though! although I had been there long long time and made friends.

I think the "kind that knows all and chooses the pure" would actually be a very good description of the lady in question - and probably many more. Although I would have to add that there's a certain element of an ostrich sticking its head in the sand there, too - and not just with regard to religion.

In any case, she's probably a better person than I am, and what right do I have to judge anyway?

We have no right to destroy anyone.
The irony in all of this is that the people who are baying for the blood of the entire Catholic Church are more similar to the self-righteous, judgemental society that allowed this to happen, than they would probably care to admit.

I hope you're not banned from CathAns.
The truth should always be welcome, however unpleasant that truth may be....

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 11:43AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the act is quite clear on the first two points. A septic tank is not an underground crypt.

Which act?
And whilst a septic tank that is in use is obviously out of the question, it appears that this one was probably never used as a septic tank in which case it is just a concrete chamber, so a septic tank in name only.

ohnonotgmail · 14-03-2017 11:48AM

kbannon wrote: »

Which act?
And whilst a septic tank that is in use is obviously out of the question, it appears that this one was probably never used as a septic tank in which case it is just a concrete chamber, so a septic tank in name only.

the one linked to in the post you originally quoted.

Neyite · 14-03-2017 12:03PM

kbannon wrote: »

Which act?
And whilst a septic tank that is in use is obviously out of the question, it appears that this one was probably never used as a septic tank in which case it is just a concrete chamber, so a septic tank in name only.

It appears to have been one of 7 underground chambers dating from the workhouse days where it would/may have been used as a cesspit.

But having said that, even if it was no longer used as one, or ever had been used as one, it was not a designated underground crypt or a consecrated burial ground that the RCC dictates baptised members are buried.

Or, to put it another way, if the nuns felt it was an appropriate resting ground for all who lived in this home, why were the nuns buried elsewhere in the grounds with a marked headstone?

I was speaking to someone at the weekend and from their account, I'm pretty sure that any children born in homes or wards ran by these nuns were not only baptised but also had their communion and confirmation performed as newborns if they were poorly.

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 01:25PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the one linked to in the post you originally quoted.

Thanks. Hadn't seen the link.
Being devil's advocate, could it be possibke that they informed whoever appropriate e.g. a local garda (it's hard to read the Act on a phone), and they were given the all clear as permission was already granted for the main cemetery?

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 01:26PM

Neyite wrote: »

It appears to have been one of 7 underground chambers dating from the workhouse days where it would/may have been used as a cesspit.

But having said that, even if it was no longer used as one, or ever had been used as one, it was not a designated underground crypt or a consecrated burial ground that the RCC dictates baptised members are buried.

Or, to put it another way, if the nuns felt it was an appropriate resting ground for all who lived in this home, why were the nuns buried elsewhere in the grounds with a marked headstone?

I was speaking to someone at the weekend and from their account, I'm pretty sure that any children born in homes or wards ran by these nuns were not only baptised but also had their communion and confirmation performed as newborns if they were poorly.

I'm not justifying the nuns actions.
I presume there was a strong sense of superiority in them but only they can say why they weren't buried together.

ohnonotgmail · 14-03-2017 01:37PM

kbannon wrote: »

Thanks. Hadn't seen the link.
Being devil's advocate, could it be possibke that they informed whoever appropriate e.g. a local garda (it's hard to read the Act on a phone), and they were given the all clear as permission was already granted for the main cemetery?

to put it simply, no. A garda is not authorised to make that decision. Only the minister or a Joint Burial Board can do so. I would be beyond surprised if they considered a disused septic tank as a fit and proper place to bury children. Info on Joint Burial Boards here

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1952/act/22/enacted/en/print.html

jameorahiely · 14-03-2017 02:10PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

to put it simply, no. A garda is not authorised to make that decision. Only the minister or a Joint Burial Board can do so. I would be beyond surprised if they considered a disused septic tank as a fit and proper place to bury children. Info on Joint Burial Boards here

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1952/act/22/enacted/en/print.html

So a fifty pound fine and/or 6 momths in jail. Who buried them until we go arrest them

shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the Court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

ohnonotgmail · 14-03-2017 02:21PM

jameorahiely wrote: »

So a fifty pound fine and/or 6 momths in jail. Who buried them until we go arrest them

shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the Court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

Somebody else claimed that no offence was committed. I was just clarifying that an offence was committed. They were buried by the nuns. Though i'm not sure buried is the right word. Cast aside is probably more correct.

14-03-2017 02:27PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Somebody else claimed that no offence was committed. I was just clarifying that an offence was committed. They were buried by the nuns. Though i'm not sure buried is the right word. Cast aside is probably more correct.

Was the ground consecrated? Would all the babies have been baptised? Unbaptised used not be allowed burial in consecrated ground.

tigger123 · 14-03-2017 02:40PM

Surely if there was some mitigating circumstances, or some sort of spin to be made on this the RCC would have come out with something by now? Has anyone made any clarifying comments on the mother and baby home, or said anything yet?

14-03-2017 02:49PM

Hmm. I know it's the Journal, and the Mail, but, these are interesting. This one because it's eye-witness testimony:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3374922/The-house-tears-Secret-tapes-woman-spent-years-controversial-Irish-home-unmarried-mothers-reveals-unmarked-mass-grave-children.html

And this one because it seems we may just get the whole truth, because of the courage and tenacity of the victims.

http://www.thejournal.ie/survivors-bethany-1537022-Jun2014/

The good old days, my eye!

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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