"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

kylith · 13-03-2017 09:37AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The same loving (sic ) family that sent the mother to the home in the first place.? I think its pretty clear what most families wishes were.

You understand that these are their siblings and the mothers of the dead babies you're talking about? Mothers who were forced to give them up, siblings who may not have been born at the time? You're saying that the women sent themselves to these places?

13-03-2017 09:39AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The same loving (sic ) family that sent the mother to the home in the first place.? I think its pretty clear what most families wishes were.

Are you perhaps thinking about the wishes of the babies Grandparents then, as opposed to the wishes of the Mothers, or siblings, now?

If I had a sister, or brother buried in Tuam - one that my Mother was forced to give up - I'd want the remains returned.

I would want to show the love, and respect, that the baby, and it's Mother had not been shown in the past.

Other people may differ.

I do know of a man who was born in a Mother and Baby home, who tracked his Mother down, met her, - and was then roundly rejected by his Mother's husband, and their children.
Ye old "inheritance" was still a factor, methinks!:mad:

For those families who do want the remains, though - what right do we have to deny them that wish?

infogiver · 13-03-2017 10:24AM

kylith wrote: »

You understand that these are their siblings and the mothers of the dead babies you're talking about? Mothers who were forced to give them up, siblings who may not have been born at the time? You're saying that the women sent themselves to these places?

No. Their parents sent them. Parents,grandparents,aunts uncles neighbours.
Actually brought them and dropped them off. And for the most part, didn't come back. I don't know how long its going to take for people to accept this, but there wont be any peace until they do.

Hagar7 · 13-03-2017 10:27AM

What happened to the mothers after their children were taken away from them?

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 10:35AM

Deleted User wrote: »

They did much more than ignore it. They were directly responsible for 2,500 women being sent to these homes.

http://www.thejournal.ie/magdalene-l...83428-Feb2013/

Mothers and siblings of these babies in some cases want the remains returned.

Do you think it's too much to ask?
I don't!

In physical terms, it may well be so . Given the way they were just dumped together

They were never meant to be found.

Shameful ..

Sierra Oscar · 13-03-2017 10:36AM

Hagar7 wrote: »

What happened to the mothers after their children were taken away from them?

If you came from a decent background and could afford to pay for the "services rendered" then you could leave the home relatively quickly. If you were poor then you often had to work for some time to "pay your debt" so to speak.

If you were a "repeat offender" you could end up being shipped off to a Magdalene Laundry to work as punishment for recidivism. Many women were stuck in those laundries for years.

nhunter100 · 13-03-2017 10:37AM

There is quite a few vile and disgusting comments on this thread. The apologists for the church and the religious orders are beyond contempt. They fit in the same category as that clown from the states Bill Donoghue. His contention is that the mass grave in Tuam is 'fake news'.
Spreading the blame now has shifted to basically just forget about, leave the remains where they are. These people are the reason the Church got away with the $hit they did.

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 10:42AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Saying, end of story, does not win an argument you know (unless you are under even).

It was correc in the context of its time, even if you cannot see it from your limited view of todays standards. The majority are very blinkered to the prevailing standards of their day.
What happened to those people, indeed horrific to us, was perfectly acceptable to those who did it, and their contemporaries who created and were part of the culture that enabled it.

Nooooooooooo ! A million times no.

end of the road · 13-03-2017 10:43AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It has been known for years that there were bodies buried there. People have recounted how they saw babies wrapped in shrouds placed in this underground chamber. That is how it was described, not dumped in a cesspit.There is no account to say whether or not a religious service was held before burial. However, from my sketchy recollection of my religious education, unbaptised babies could not be buried in consecrated ground. That's the way it was back then. Just like the families back then were responsible for their daughters and sisters being sent to these homes. What good would it do to exhume the lot of them now? Do DNA tests on all and maybe find families of a handful? As for finding out how they died, after all this time it is doubtful that there is much if any evidence as to how they died.

it would do plenty of good. there is no argument against investigating this issue.

infogiver wrote: »

No. Their parents sent them. Parents,grandparents,aunts uncles neighbours.
Actually brought them and dropped them off. And for the most part, didn't come back. I don't know how long its going to take for people to accept this, but there wont be any peace until they do.

but nobody is debating against, or has debated against that fact. it is the living relations of these children, who wouldn't be to blame, who wish for the remains to be returned. are they not entitled for that to happen?

infogiver · 13-03-2017 10:43AM

Hagar7 wrote: »

What happened to the mothers after their children were taken away from them?

Apparently there was a "bill" for having availed of the "facilities".
if your "family" had paid this bill then you could leave (if they hadn't paid then you had to stay for x amount of months to work and pay it off), but it must have been pretty difficult for some girls to leave as a lot didn't have anywhere to go.
Some had been brought secretly and could return home without their baby on the pretext that they had been in UK or somewhere caring for a sick relation or whatever.
Philomena of the famous film was fairly typical. Her father had told her when he dropped her off as a pregnant teenager that he never wanted to see or here from her again. So where was she supposed to go after her baby was born? A girl on her own was bad enough at the time, but a girl with no husband and a baby?
Don't forget that there was no OPFP or anything like that at the time.

Hagar7 · 13-03-2017 10:43AM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

If you came from a decent background and could afford to pay for the "services rendered" then you could leave the home relatively quickly. If you were poor then you often had to work for some time to "pay your debt" so to speak.

If you were a "repeat offender" you could end up being shipped off to a Magdalene Laundry to work as punishment for recidivism. Many women were stuck in those laundries for years.

Thanks for the reply.

kylith · 13-03-2017 10:48AM

infogiver wrote: »

No. Their parents sent them. Parents,grandparents,aunts uncles neighbours.
Actually brought them and dropped them off. And for the most part, didn't come back. I don't know how long its going to take for people to accept this, but there wont be any peace until they do.

And those grandparents are now dead. The people who want the bodies of the children back are their mothers and their siblings - the mothers they were taken from and the siblings who never knew them.

The only people who would deny them are those who want to sweep the whole thing under the carpet in the hope that we will forget about it.

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 10:50AM

volchitsa wrote: »

How exactly does that justify religious people, self-styled teachers of morality to the rest of the people, committing such horrendous and probably illegal acts?

reminds me. some years ago I was talking with a very new young priest, in his first curacy. Full of fire he was talking about immorality etc ( I have found i learn more if I listen that if I argue)

The subject turned to clerical child abuse... " Ah well, compare to others we did not do so badly! Look at the Scouts!"

I challenged him quietly but firmly that WE as the Church were supposedly the teachers of care etc and that for us even ONE case of child abuse was totally inexcusable,

As it is. if the Church sets itself up then it has to be as near perfect as it can be. Teaching by example.

That is what makes this far more serious than secular neglect and abuse

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 10:53AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It isnt really a case of fault or blame, rather of thats just the way it was. And thank God it is better now. A country as a while took a certain course as a country, and no individual or institution was out of step with what the country set as an appropriate standard and policy.
It isnt 'everyone is to blame', it 'no one is to blame'.

Noooooooooooooooo ! No no no!

NB babies cannot feed themselves, we have to do it. Else they die.

infogiver · 13-03-2017 10:53AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

There is quite a few vile and disgusting comments on this thread. The apologists for the church and the religious orders are beyond contempt. They fit in the same category as that clown from the states Bill Donoghue. His contention is that the mass grave in Tuam is 'fake news'.
Spreading the blame now has shifted to basically just forget about, leave the remains where they are. These people are the reason the Church got away with the $hit they did.

You keep repeating this over and over.
Have you reported the posts you find offensive?
Some people don't think that disturbing remains especially after such a long time, is respectful or appropriate.
If these little babies where buried in an inappropriate or disrespectful manner already then is it not heaping more disrespect on them to disturb them now after such a long time?

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 10:54AM

jameorahiely wrote: »

Societies views and complicity in sending their daughthers to these homes is not relevant you reckon? I would disagree and don't see the reason for another thread on the same topic?

Oh, my irony meter exploded when I see some posters lamenting over illegal burials 50 years, yet the same people run to defend an organisation who in 2016 disposed of bodies by carting them around in buckets. As I said , brainwashing is a hell of a thing.

infogiver · 13-03-2017 10:57AM

Graces7 wrote: »

james is referring to those posting on this thread who are advocating for abortion on demand in Ireland on other threads.

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 10:59AM

Samaris wrote: »

Yes, but you indicate that even if the perpetrators of the abuse are still alive, they should be left alone because ah sure, it's all of society.

Sure, society was involved. The society of the day were accessories so to speak. But the people that actually committed the acts are still around in some cases. To keep saying it's no-one's fault carefully exonerates people who specifically did specific things to other specific people, in some cases, resulting in their deaths or a lifelong shame and worry.

I do not blame Bon Secours as an order, I blame the specific people involved in the abuse and in perpetuating the abuse by indoctrinating others the same way. Same as I don't blame Fine Gael/Fianna Fail specifically, I blame the people involved in the acts - and in the cover-ups.

Maybe you're right and people haven't changed that much. There certainly seems to be a lot of "the blame belongs to everyone so the blame belongs to no-one, oh well, let's find something else to worry about".

You should. This was policy dictated to the Sisters.

nhunter100 · 13-03-2017 11:02AM

infogiver wrote:

You keep repeating this over and over. Have you reported the posts you find offensive? Some people don't think that disturbing remains especially after such a long time, is respectful or appropriate. If these little babies where buried in an inappropriate or disrespectful manner

'You keep repeating this over and over' odd you say this as it's the first time I said this. But then again supporters of the church have a somewhat casual relationship with the turth. You don't seem to think putting the remains of another human in a septic tank is disrespectful? I really do think those involved in religion are bereft of morals.

kylith · 13-03-2017 11:03AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Apparently there were some clinics in which standards left a hell of a lot to be desired. When this was discovered the clinics were shut down until they were brought up to code.

Some people would like us to believe that such behaviour is par for the course in every single abortion clinic and that that is a reason to deny women access to abortion.

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 11:05AM

Originally Posted by jameorahiely View Post
The people who lived around the homes for not investigating what all the digging was about."

Ah but they did and were powerless to do anything.

The garden was cared for by a committee for the last 40 years. They had no legal right to do that and kept quiet to avoid it being built on. Made the plaque, planted flowers.

The digging would have been done by the gardeners etc who worked for the Sisters

No one would have listened to them; Catherine Corless had a terrible time getting this faced and out .

Had they challenged? It wold have resulted in the garden being destroyed

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 11:07AM

end of the road wrote: »

no it doesn't. how women and children were treated at the hands of the church was wrong. end of. no discussion to be had. children died and were effectively dumped. these homes ran by the church had a higher then normal death rate dispite the church being a very rich organisation. the church covered this, and the abuse carried out at the hands of some members up. no excuses.

not at all. any investigation would be worth it. every penny and resource. especially considering what happened to the people in these homes. we have a genocide on our hands, the truth must be got at all costs.

as long as the orders are made to pay. Bon Secours are literally millionaires.

sondagefaux · 13-03-2017 11:09AM

Infants and very young children died in large numbers at the Tuam home.

Their bodies were not given respectful burials.

The lack of respect shown to their remains reflects the lack of respect shown to their unmarried mothers and the 'illegitimate' status in law and society of these infants at the times of their deaths.

Why is anyone still arguing that this is not the case?

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 11:15AM

Samaris wrote: »

I am not sure the word genocide means what various people think it means.

Can we be clear here? Genocide = "intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part." There was no deliberate attempt to destroy ethnic Irish, citizens of Ireland as a whole, whites or Catholics by the Catholic Church, since any of the above would have been eminently counter-productive. It's a ridiculous word to use and cheapens both victims of actual genocide and what happened in Tuam.

It is appropriate for both the Famine and the child abuse and this. Deliberate, selecting and victimising only a part of society. Fits your definition; "in part" selecting.

Fits Tuam et al perfectly as it did the Famine

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 11:19AM

end of the road wrote: »

it would do plenty of good. there is no argument against investigating this issue.

but nobody is debating against, or has debated against that fact. it is the living relations of these children, who wouldn't be to blame, who wish for the remains to be returned. are they not entitled for that to happen?

This shocks.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/theres-28-babies-on-top-of-him-mum-whose-son-died-after-being-sent-away-without-her-permission-fighting-to-get-his-remains-back-35513752.html

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 11:29AM

Just spent a while banging my head against a stone wall.

I am a Senior Member of the Catholic Answers forum.. Not a very strict one and I choose the sections where I post carefully .

Usually anything negative re ireland gets deleted fast, ie anything critical of the Church. I have learnd to be circumspect

When the Tuam news first broke in 2014, it got dismissed as a hoax.

I had thought that now?

Had dropped off the list months ago and they kept asking where I was..

I replied to a thread and yes HOAX by the Catholic League came up. Nothing has been done wrong; all an attack on THE CHURCH

I posted with several urls. Asked please to leave the thread up...

also posted a very emotive piece re the scandal

Went back early today. Not one iota of concern or grief or pity etc.. some way out posts re how the Church here WILL RENEW. One poster said she had climbed Croagh Patrick and her mystical experience.

I posted and quit saying why. .

The Church has learned nothing. Not one iota of reality

sondagefaux · 13-03-2017 11:45AM

Altering a birth or death certificate without legal authority is a criminal offence, telling people that their babies have died when they haven't, so they can be adopted illegally by US families, isn't just a criminal offence, it's utterly repugnant and disgusting. Let's hope the theory is not true.

Possible interference with birth and death certification at mother and baby homes in Tuam, Co Galway, and in Cork was highlighted as requiring further investigation in official HSE correspondence over four years ago.

A draft briefing paper for senior HSE management in October 2012, marked strictly confidential, noted that deaths recorded at the Bessboro mother and baby home in Cork dropped “dramatically” in 1950 with the introduction of adoption legislation.

“This...may point to babies being identified for adoption, principally to the USA, but have been recorded as infant deaths in Ireland and notified to the parents accordingly,” it said.

It added that further detailed study was required before this theory could be proven or disproven.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/possible-interference-with-birth-certs-at-tuam-and-cork-homes-1.3007646

jameorahiely · 13-03-2017 01:19PM

Graces7 wrote: »

infogiver wrote: »

james is referring to those posting on this thread who are advocating for abortion on demand in Ireland on other threads.

Close. The irony is rushing to defend one organisation: unable to condem their actions, while being in this thread pontificating.

13-03-2017 01:45PM

kylith wrote: »

Apparently there were some clinics in which standards left a hell of a lot to be desired. When this was discovered the clinics were shut down until they were brought up to code.

Some people would like us to believe that such behaviour is par for the course in every single abortion clinic and that that is a reason to deny women access to abortion.

No. "Some people" are capable of making the very obvious connection.

Babies are still being disposed of - sometimes because the parents have what they consider genuine reasons for having an abortion - and sometimes because they are unwanted.

In the case of babies who are aborted because they were unplanned, society has not changed. There is still no compassion among some sections of society. The only difference is that now it is the Mothers making the decision, not Grandparents, or Religious or societal pressure.

Graces7 wrote: »

This shocks.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/theres-28-babies-on-top-of-him-mum-whose-son-died-after-being-sent-away-without-her-permission-fighting-to-get-his-remains-back-35513752.html

Sadly, it doesn't shock me.
It makes me sick - but it doesn't shock me.

It's just one more proof that ordinary citizens were trampled underfoot. Whether by the rich, the religious, the medical profession, or whoever - our "superiors":rolleyes: didn't like it when we asked questions.
They always knew better than the plebs. - in their own opinion anyway.

Strangely enough, being the contrary individual that I am - I've always disagreed with that stance!:D

Graces7 wrote: »

Just spent a while banging my head against a stone wall.

I am a Senior Member of the Catholic Answers forum.. Not a very strict one and I choose the sections where I post carefully .

Usually anything negative re ireland gets deleted fast, ie anything critical of the Church. I have learnd to be circumspect

When the Tuam news first broke in 2014, it got dismissed as a hoax.

I had thought that now?

Had dropped off the list months ago and they kept asking where I was..

I replied to a thread and yes HOAX by the Catholic League came up. Nothing has been done wrong; all an attack on THE CHURCH

I posted with several urls. Asked please to leave the thread up...

also posted a very emotive piece re the scandal

Went back early today. Not one iota of concern or grief or pity etc.. some way out posts re how the Church here WILL RENEW. One poster said she had climbed Croagh Patrick and her mystical experience.

I posted and quit saying why. .

The Church has learned nothing. Not one iota of reality

Plenty of us have learned. You will always find the "sheep" in any flock. The ones who are willing to go against the teachings we are meant to live by, because, instead of thinking we're meant to make things better, they believe their sole function is to be loyal.

In fairness, a lot of the criticism is pursuing a clear agenda to completely eliminate the RCC. I would defend the Church against that - because I believe there are plenty of good people in the Church.

I won't offer a defence against wrongdoing, though. I just refuse to tar everyone with the same brush, because that's neither fair, nor accurate.

Some people don't seem to be able to work out the difference.

Having said that - my comments are based on various statements I've read all week, from various sources.

I didn't even know a "Catholic answers" forum existed!

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 02:10PM

sondagefaux wrote: »

Altering a birth or death certificate without legal authority is a criminal offence, telling people that their babies have died when they haven't, so they can be adopted illegally by US families, isn't just a criminal offence, it's utterly repugnant and disgusting. Let's hope the theory is not true.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/possible-interference-with-birth-certs-at-tuam-and-cork-homes-1.3007646

No that was not done.

In fact the babies who were to be sold were chosen before they were born; Genetics you know :rolleyes: Not just any baby.... Parentage etc mattered.

So these babies were well cared for , well fed, and I suspect as someone on the Catholic Answer list who was saying that none of the negligence was true, mentioned photos showing healthy babies that these babies'photos were used as publicity for the home .

We will see from the records. But that is what I have learned from an impeccable source.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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