Louise O Neill on rape culture.

please helpThank YOU · 11-03-2017 05:48PM

mzungu wrote: »

I agree. Stuff like her living arrangements and all that jazz is absolutely pointless and none of anybody else's business. Thankfully, the vast majority of the thread hasn't been about that.

I would imagine it would be more the ideology and the discussion around it that interests most people. For example, politicians are now using the lingo and in general Irish media seem to have a policy of blind acceptance towards a lot of this stuff. Even so, for better or worse, it is out there, and it probably won't be going away.

Regarding your point about resenting exposure, I disagree. I doubt anybody resents anything about her public profile, or at least they shouldn't. She is in a game where she needs to market herself, that is the way of that particular industry and everybody in the media does it to some extent. It is perfectly acceptable that she puts herself out there. I don't agree with the vast majority of what she writes, but I am happy to live in a country where she (and others) are free to do so.

The way I view it is, as a general rule in this country, we will ape whatever is going on in the USA. If Louise O'Neill dropped feminism tomorrow and became a fully signed up card carrying member of the manosphere, it wouldn't matter a whole lot. There would just be somebody else writing the exact same stuff about "rape culture" and "straight white men" etc. There is a conveyor belt of clickbait writers out there who could just as easily take over the baton*, or if you had a talented enough computer programmer you could probably just come up with an algorithm to churn them out instead . None of this stuff is new, in fact most of it has been rehashed in one form or another from the writings of various gender theorists and feminists for a few decades now. While I don't buy into postmodern gender theory, I do find it entertaining and interesting in its own way. I think treating it as a truth is very shaky ground, but thats just me. Recently, it has become relatively mainstream and is a money spinner now. Like all gravy trains with lobby group and media backing, this one will be pushed out there into the public sphere regardless.

Lastly, I believe ignoring it would be the wrong thing to do because people - even though they may not agree with a lot of third wave thought - have an interest in it so it stands to reason that they will pop onto a thread about it. Plus, it is good to read stuff one may not agree with. At the end of the day it's killing time on an internet forum and people will naturally gravitate towards things they find topical or interesting. But there is a discussion to be had and by-and-large a lot of the contributions on this thread have been quite insightful.

*Which as we all know is a phallic symbol of the patriarchy!! Just no escaping this cisgendered heteronormativity, eh? :pac::P

very well said

Grayson · 11-03-2017 06:08PM

Connacht2KXX wrote: »

The low conviction rates for rape, especially in Ireland, is a multifaceted issue:

1. We have low conviction rates for a lot of crimes. Our judicial system is messed up and needs reform. Our inadequate system harms victims of other crimes as well. It's not as if the system is set up just to benefit rapists.

2. This is probably a view that will probably get shouted down and get me brandished as a misogynist, but women and, society at large, deserve a lot of the blame for the low rates. We should be trying to instil in both men and women that the second they get raped or sexually assaulted, the first thing that pops into their head is to go straight to the guards. We should be teaching people from the moment they come out of the womb that the most important thing that one can do when they get raped is to sprint down to the local garda station. This seems incredibly unfeasible but it is necessary to increase the conviction rates. I will post the stats later but the amount of delayed reporting is shocking. Delayed reporting is directly related to lower conviction rates, due to decreased evidence (especially DNA evidence) and other factors. Obviously rape victims respond in different ways to rape - basically what comes naturally to them. But just because something occurs naturally, doesn't mean it is beneficial. People must get brainwashed that getting raped is not your fault, you should feel no shame and you should immediately report the rape. Again, I understand how crazy this is, but it is far more effective than what most feminists are proposing eg. holding slut walks to combat rape culture.

3. Feminists constantly bítch about how bad the police are at handling rape, dont believe the victim, scrutinise the victim and claim that they are directly responsible for low conviction rates. If this is the case, which I dont really believe it is, the feminists should actually offer a method to improve the handling of rape cases. Of course, they dont. They don't say "the police lead to low conviction rates and should be doing x,y and z to increase the conviction rates". All what they say is "the police lead to low conviction rates". All of this leads to women and men being less likely to go to the guards to report the rape which increases the amount of rapists on the streets. I have no problem with them criticising the guards, but they should do it accurately and at least say what should be done to improve these deficits.

1. There's low conviction rates for rape compared to other crimes. That's what people complain about. In 2005 for example about 5% of rape cases in the UK resulted in convictions. That's far less that other crimes.

2. The reason that women don't report are multi faceted. There are loads of reasons. One of the big ones is how women who report them are treated by police and the public which brings us to point 3.

3. There are loads of things that can be done and have been suggested. Saying that no-one has any ideas is intensely stupid. In the UK for example they now provide special training to officers who deal with sexual assaults. These include how to talk to the victim. And this has actually resulted in an increase in prosecutions and convictions. In many police forces around the world these changes are being made and are making a difference. All of this occurred because of "feminist" groups. I put feminist in quotations because they're victim advocacy groups like the rape crises centre. I think anyone who starts labelling them feminist, and saying they're doing nothing, has an agenda.

It doesn't help that there are groups out there that say that women lie about rape. Or that they lead the men on. Or that it was the woman's fault and she's just blaming the man because of embarrassment. Even last week a canadian judge resigned over comments he'd made in a trial where he'd asked the woman "why didn't you just close your legs".
Whilst googling the links I included above I came across an article where it was stated that the number of convictions were falling. This was therefore an indication that the CPS were actively trying to prosecute innocent men to get convictions. It assumes that if a man was not convicted of rape in a trial the woman must have been lying and therefore the number of false rape cases are actually higher than genuine rape cases. This was one of those mens rights websites.

All this sort of **** creates an atmosphere where women don't report rape.

I'll leave you with this photo.

https://twitter.com/SareanaKimia/status/786721974781353984

please helpThank YOU · 11-03-2017 06:25PM

Louise o Neill ideas we are all rapist ever Man /Women Boy/Girl is part of rape culture . is like Mississippi burning to me what she is say I would never go out side the door again our talking to a women our man again we all look at ever person man /women boy/girl as the are part of the the rape culture.

Grayson · 11-03-2017 06:28PM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Louise o Neill ideas we are all rapist ever Man /Women Boy/Girl is part of rape culture . is like Mississippi burning to me what she is say I would never go out side the door again our talking to a women our man again we all look at ever person man /women boy/girl as the are part of the the rape culture.

Did she actually say everyone is? Every single person in the country? Or is that just you exaggerating?

Vela · 11-03-2017 06:32PM

Grayson wrote: »

1.

3. All of this occurred because of "feminist" groups. I put feminist in quotations because they're victim advocacy groups like the rape crises centre. I think anyone who starts labelling them feminist, and saying they're doing nothing, has an agenda.

With all due respect, I wouldn't be using the RCC as an example of a well-trained body when it comes to counseling rape victims. I personally know of two centres that provided a service that retraumatised the victim due to their lack of understanding and inability to deal with serious mental health issues following rape - such as PTSD (this was reported to the RCC after the time). Many victims who suffer from PTSD have to undergo months or even years of therapy before they can speak about / relive the actual event in therapy (which is how you eventually 'process it' in a way) or even refer to it as 'rape'. That conversation requires a strong client/therapist bond and a great deal of trust to be built up. Pushing someone to do so in their very first session with a counselor is extremely dangerous for their state of mind, and also can cause serious issues long-term.

And guess what? These were female 'counselors'. Which I put in quotations because I'm highly skeptical of the training they've undertaken. A 6 month counseling course does not qualify you to provide therapy for someone who has undergone a sexual assault, especially considering the conditions that can arise from that such as PTSD, anxiety, severe depression, self harm, and even sucidial tendencies. I understand funding is an issue. But the least they could do is refer patients to qualified psychologists when it's clearly needed.

I hope that doesn't throw the thread off track. But I couldn't let that slide. The RCC gets so much praise and it's not entirely deserved in my book. If they do get more funding, I hope that put it to better use.

Grayson · 11-03-2017 06:40PM

Vela wrote: »

With all due respect, I wouldn't be using the RCC as an example of a well-trained body when it comes to counseling rape victims. I personally know of two centres that provided a service that retraumatised the victim due to their lack of understanding and inability to deal with serious mental health issues following rape - such as PTSD (this was reported to the RCC after the time). Many victims who suffer from PTSD have to undergo months or even years of therapy before they can speak about / relive the actual event in therapy (which is how you eventually 'process it' in a way) or even refer to it as 'rape'. That conversation requires a strong client/therapist bond and a great deal of trust to be built up. Pushing someone to do so in their very first session with a counselor is extremely dangerous for their state of mind, and also can cause serious issues long-term.

And guess what? These were female 'counselors'. Which I put in quotations because I'm highly skeptical of the training they've undertaken. A 6 month counseling course does not qualify you to provide therapy for someone who has undergone a sexual assault, especially considering the conditions that can arise from that such as PTSD, anxiety, severe depression, self harm, and even sucidial tendencies. I understand funding is an issue. But the least they could do is refer patients to qualified psychologists when it's clearly needed.

I hope that doesn't throw the thread off track. But I couldn't let that slide. The RCC gets so much praise and it's not entirely deserved in my book. If they do get more funding, I hope that put it to better use.

Firstly, when you said RCC I thought you meant Roman Catholic Church. Took a second for my brain to catch up.

I've never heard of any of those stories about the crises centre. I did a quick search on their site and found this.

Counselling is provided in our Centre in Leeson Street and in our Outreach centre in Coolock by a team of professional counsellors and psychotherapists. Sessions last for one hour and are usually offered fortnightly. A client will always see the same therapist for the duration of their time in the Centre.

It says professional. A quick check if the IACP site comes up with this.
http://www.iacp.ie/first-time-accreditation

It seems like you need a lot of time to become accredited. However it doesn't mention the specific courses you need.

Vela · 11-03-2017 06:43PM

Grayson wrote: »

Firstly, when you said RCC I thought you meant Roman Catholic Church. Took a second for my brain to catch up.

I've never heard of any of those stories about the crises centre. I did a quick search on their site and found this.

It says professional. A quick check if the IACP site comes up with this.
http://www.iacp.ie/first-time-accreditation

It seems like you need a lot of time to become accredited. However it doesn't mention the specific courses you need.

Why would you have heard of them? I personally experienced it and reported it to them. It was hardly front page news at the time. The counselor I dealt with was spoken to and I bowed out at that point. At the time, I wasn't in a stable enough headspace to deal with all of that, but I wanted to make sure they investigated it.

I guarantee you, it was not a pleasant experience and it's not a place I've ever recommended since.

Oh, and to add to that; my current psychologist, who I've been seeing ever since then, is fcuking amazing. And here's the shocker for you - he's a man.

please helpThank YOU · 11-03-2017 06:45PM

Best example of what the likes of Louise o Neill and her likes are doing is making people paranoid/hysteria. I know this guy he lovely person and he was in park/ playground with his wife and 3 young children he wife and his children decide it to go the coffee shop in the park. and get him a coffee as he stood near the children playground in the park this other guy/man came over to him and said why was he on his on his own in a park near a children play ground . and the guy/man I know said I am waiting for his wife and children there gone to get a coffee in park shop your man says ya rite . pull the other one . the guy/man I know told hes wife this when she came back and the had war with this paranoid man. so now if your man on your own you cant go walking to a park people might think you are a rapist what is the world come to .If that was done to the likes of Louise o Neill there would be war.

ivytwine · 11-03-2017 06:46PM

I haven't dealt with them but I am on my third counsellor and it's only now it's working for me. This one has degrees coming out of her ears and she's a psychotherapist. I probably did have a bit of the old PTSD although never diagnosed, but I couldn't name what had happened to me and I agree... I've used the RCC helpline when I've felt terrible but I'm not sure many counsellors with their dips (in many organisations in Ireland, not just the RCC) are qualified to deal with really serious mental trauma.

To add: I've been seeing her for maybe 6 months, weekly, and I really trust her, but she has never asked for details of what happened. (My previous one did in the first session. He was great work wise but not expert in that area). I told her the gory details last week... of my own volition. That's how it's supposed to work, and for some people it can take years.

Wibbs · 11-03-2017 06:53PM

Grayson wrote: »

1. There's low conviction rates for rape compared to other crimes. That's what people complain about. In 2005 for example about 5% of rape cases in the UK resulted in convictions. That's far less that other crimes.

Of course and there are all sorts of obvious reasons for this. Number one, it's a private crime where there are usually no witnesses, so it's down to the testimony of the two people involved. Both of whom have diametrically opposed views.

Secondly, where actual violence is missing, physical evidence of rape can be easily mistaken for consensual sex. A couple into "rough" consensual sex could look more like a rape than a "quiet" date rape situation where the victim was passive from fear. Physical evidence is extremely time specific and needs to be gathered early. Not too easy with a traumatised victim(who often have an overwhelming and understandable need to wash afterwards).

There is also the issue of statistics. Take your photo. How was this and other statistics gathered? One should be always suspicious of any stats where the people or organisations quoting them could gain benefit from them. There have been a few "studies" into this that turned out to be extremely skewed to the point of nonsense. QV the Koss study that gave the world the "1 in 4" statistic. The same statistic that keeps being referenced.

Now people can understandably be up in arms about the low conviction rates, but in a crime considered to be one of the most abhorrent, the rule or law, evidence and reasonable doubt has to come into it. Otherwise we have mob rule. The regularly seen "feminist" quote of "just believe women"* is one such daft statement.

*unless they don't follow the narrative of course, then they can be ignored.

please helpThank YOU · 11-03-2017 06:55PM

Grayson wrote: »

Did she actually say everyone is? Every single person in the country? Or is that just you exaggerating?

what is culture =we are all part of society/ culture every man/women/ boy/girl is that what Louise o Neill is saying we have a rape culture we are all rapist . e Louise o Neill wants to come out and make a new statement and single out man our women boy our girl.

ivytwine · 11-03-2017 07:00PM

Wibbs wrote: »

*unless they don't follow the narrative of course, then they can be ignored.

Like when they're sharing their experiences of the wildly differing standards of counselling in this country.

mzungu · 11-03-2017 07:02PM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

what is culture =we are all part of society/ culture every man/women/ boy/girl is that what Louise o Neill is saying we have a rape culture we are all rapist . e Louise o Neill wants to come out and make a new statement and single out man our women boy our girl.

I don't think she ever said that, although I am sure others have. IIRC she believes all men collude in rape in some form or another. There is a difference between the two, but neither of them stand up to any scrutiny.

Grayson · 11-03-2017 07:06PM

ivytwine wrote: »

I haven't dealt with them but I am on my third counsellor and it's only now it's working for me. This one has degrees coming out of her ears and she's a psychotherapist. I probably did have a bit of the old PTSD although never diagnosed, but I couldn't name what had happened to me and I agree... I've used the RCC helpline when I've felt terrible but I'm not sure many counsellors with their dips (in many organisations in Ireland, not just the RCC) are qualified to deal with really serious mental trauma.

To add: I've been seeing her for maybe 6 months, weekly, and I really trust her, but she has never asked for details of what happened. (My previous one did in the first session. He was great work wise but not expert in that area). I told her the gory details last week... of my own volition. That's how it's supposed to work, and for some people it can take years.

Vela wrote: »

Why would you have heard of them? I personally experienced it and reported it to them. It was hardly front page news at the time. The counselor I dealt with was spoken to and I bowed out at that point. At the time, I wasn't in a stable enough headspace to deal with all of that, but I wanted to make sure they investigated it.

I guarantee you, it was not a pleasant experience and it's not a place I've ever recommended since.

Oh, and to add to that; my current psychologist, who I've been seeing ever since then, is fcuking amazing. And here's the shocker for you - he's a man.

I think part of finding a therapist is finding someone who's a good fit. But (Vela) you're right about qualifications. This is going to sound snobbish but I also think a big part is intelligence (both IQ and EQ). I went to a therapist years ago about panic attacks. Something happened to me and it triggered them. The therapist I went to was nice but any suggestions they came up with were pretty crap. I wanted to see someone who could help supply me with the mental tools I need to deal with the panic attacks whilst I worked my way through them. She felt that her job was to just listen to me talk about them.
I honestly don't know if she would have been capable to help someone who had a far worse issue like PTSD.

I think in those cases the person going to them needs to be able to say it isn't working and move on to the next therapist until the find someone they are comfortable with. However when someone is vulnerable and needs help they might not be capable of recognising it at those early stages. In that case it should be the therapist who says it, but they don't.

Vela · 11-03-2017 07:16PM

Grayson wrote: »

I think part of finding a therapist is finding someone who's a good fit. But (Vela) you're right about qualifications. This is going to sound snobbish but I also think a big part is intelligence (both IQ and EQ). I went to a therapist years ago about panic attacks. Something happened to me and it triggered them. The therapist I went to was nice but any suggestions they came up with were pretty crap. I wanted to see someone who could help supply me with the mental tools I need to deal with the panic attacks whilst I worked my way through them. She felt that her job was to just listen to me talk about them.
I honestly don't know if she would have been capable to help someone who had a far worse issue like PTSD.

I think in those cases the person going to them needs to be able to say it isn't working and move on to the next therapist until the find someone they are comfortable with. However when someone is vulnerable and needs help they might not be capable of recognising it at those early stages. In that case it should be the therapist who says it, but they don't.

Well, at least we agree on something

Accreditation in Ireland is completely fcuked in this regard. My guy is a qualified counseling psychologist and I wouldn't recommend that anyone who wants more than some 'life coaching' (i.e. the actual kind and not the kind run by people who post motivational slogans on Instagram), to go to anyone who doesn't have a Masters at the very least. Whether that's in couns.psych, psychotherapy, or whatever.

Grayson · 11-03-2017 07:16PM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

what is culture =we are all part of society/ culture every man/women/ boy/girl is that what Louise o Neill is saying we have a rape culture we are all rapist . e Louise o Neill wants to come out and make a new statement and single out man our women boy our girl.

You're saying that culture is everyone. It's not. No-one would say that. I belong to loads of different cultures. Lad culture, gaming culture, irish culture etc... Saying that a culture exists doesn't mean that everyone belongs to it.

I could say that there's a culture of homophobia in the catholic church. It doesn't mean that all catholics are homophobic. It just means there's a group within the church that are.
Even then there's a large difference in the attitudes to gay people in the church. The new pope for example has a very different attitude than the more right wing members.

This story below is intensely disturbing. The fact that so many people would turn up to support a man convicted of rape is freaky. It shows that in Kerry at least there is a culture (Or sub culture depending on how you classify it) which supports rapists rather than the victim.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/people-queued-to-shake-this-sex-attackers-hand-108061.html

IT was a scene that could have come from a John B Keane play – a bizarre gesture of support by some plain people of Kerry for a convicted sex offender.

Danny Foley, of Meen, Listowel, sat in the dock at the Circuit Criminal Court, in Tralee, yesterday, awaiting sentence for sexually assaulting a woman, having been found guilty by a jury almost two weeks ago.

A group of 50 people, mainly men and said to be neighbours and friends, trooped into the courtroom and marched up to the accused, in single file. Each man shook his hand – some hugged him warmly, with tears in their eyes. It was witnessed by the 24-year-old victim who cut a lonely figure in the front seat of the public gallery. Dressed in black, she sat with a female garda, a counsellor from the Kerry Rape Crisis Centre and a friend.

All the well-wishers then seated themselves in the public gallery. Judge Donagh McDonagh, who had not seen what happened, emerged from his chambers a few minutes later.

Foley, a 35-year-old bouncer who had been in custody since being convicted, then stood up.
Before handing down a seven-year prison sentence, with the last two years suspended, the judge told him he had lied about several things and there was something “particularly odious” about the allegation he and the victim had engaged in oral sex.

In the witness box, the victim calmly read from her victim impact statement in which she spoke of being judged in north Kerry for pursuing her case, but she was not sorry for telling the truth.

Parish priest, Fr Seán Sheehy, a character witness for Foley, said he had always struck him as having the highest respect for women, suggesting there wasn’t an abusive bone in Foley’s body.

The moment sentence was handed down, the accused’s mother began to scream loudly. The judge ordered she be removed from the courtroom.

Vera O’Leary, director of Kerry Rape Crisis Centre, called for a system to protect victims of sex offences from intimidation in a courtroom.

Now that doesn't mean that every single person in the country supports rapists. It doesn't mean that every single person in the country thinks rape is ok. It does show that there are some people with very regressive attitudes.

ivytwine · 11-03-2017 07:22PM

Grayson wrote: »

I think part of finding a therapist is finding someone who's a good fit. But (Vela) you're right about qualifications. This is going to sound snobbish but I also think a big part is intelligence (both IQ and EQ). I went to a therapist years ago about panic attacks. Something happened to me and it triggered them. The therapist I went to was nice but any suggestions they came up with were pretty crap. I wanted to see someone who could help supply me with the mental tools I need to deal with the panic attacks whilst I worked my way through them. She felt that her job was to just listen to me talk about them.
I honestly don't know if she would have been capable to help someone who had a far worse issue like PTSD.

I think in those cases the person going to them needs to be able to say it isn't working and move on to the next therapist until the find someone they are comfortable with. However when someone is vulnerable and needs help they might not be capable of recognising it at those early stages. In that case it should be the therapist who says it, but they don't.

I agree with you there. My current psych is far more intelligent than I am, and I think I'm pretty smart! But she's got fantastic EQ and IQ and I'm blown away every week by the insights I get and tools I am given to cope.

However when you're vulnerable it's way too hard to "shop around"- especially when you're going to an organisation that is supposed to be specialising in dealing with this. The rape victim does blame his or her self, generally speaking, already. I can imagine that if you had a negative experience you'd come away thinking "I'm a rape victim and they couldn't fix me... I'm unfixable..." and therefore add even more pain to the absolute ****storm of emotions you're experiencing. Also telling someone this happened to you, especially the details, is a scary thing. You need to trust the person, and you can't establish that level of trust after one session.

As for the therapist themselves, generally they're not at the intellectual or emotional level to realise they're doing it wrong. People get attracted to this job because they're so genuinely want to help and sure when Mary down the road lost her husband didn't she come over here everyday for tea and chats and she said that I was a great help to her.

So many people I know are "trained counsellors" with dips etc and yeah, they might be fine for basic bereavement etc they don't have the skills for this. And there are some I wouldn't let counsel my cat.

I've told one person who didn't handle it well and that has really screwed me up tbh. And I'm kind of more at peace with it than some victims that might be it be more raw for.

Zulu · 11-03-2017 07:26PM

Ffs, you're trotting out the Kerry story? Again?

ivytwine · 11-03-2017 07:34PM

On Kerry.

It was mainly a class thing tbh. She was a single parent- he came from a good family. The reason it stands out because it is an anomaly, and people have been using it as their sole example ever since.

Grayson · 11-03-2017 07:58PM

Vela wrote: »

Well, at least we agree on something

Accreditation in Ireland is completely fcuked in this regard. My guy is a qualified counseling psychologist and I wouldn't recommend that anyone who wants more than some 'life coaching' (i.e. the actual kind and not the kind run by people who post motivational slogans on Instagram), to go to anyone who doesn't have a Masters at the very least. Whether that's in couns.psych, psychotherapy, or whatever.

I have a friend who's working towards her degree in psychotherapy. She was previously a volunteer on a helpline and at that point realised it's what she wants to do.

The thing is the type of qualification, not necessarily the level. What I mean is that if you do a degree in psychology it's not at all practical. You'd have to follow it up with a masters in applied psychotherapy or something similar. Psychology degrees spend most of their time on abstract theories or on becoming an academic psychologist (research etc).
Where as the 4 year degree in psychotherapy is far more practical and actually gives more experience than the MSc.

Therapy is a weird mix of art and science. You need the scientific knowledge so the therapy has a good factual foundation but you need the ability to apply it in practice and that's almost an art form.

Grayson · 11-03-2017 08:01PM

Zulu wrote: »

Ffs, you're trotting out the Kerry story? Again?

Ffs, you're dismissing an argument I constructed without actually constructing a counter argument? Again?

Vela · 11-03-2017 08:04PM

ivytwine wrote: »

I agree with you there. My current psych is far more intelligent than I am, and I think I'm pretty smart! But she's got fantastic EQ and IQ and I'm blown away every week by the insights I get and tools I am given to cope.

However when you're vulnerable it's way too hard to "shop around"- especially when you're going to an organisation that is supposed to be specialising in dealing with this. The rape victim does blame his or her self, generally speaking, already. I can imagine that if you had a negative experience you'd come away thinking "I'm a rape victim and they couldn't fix me... I'm unfixable..." and therefore add even more pain to the absolute ****storm of emotions you're experiencing. Also telling someone this happened to you, especially the details, is a scary thing. You need to trust the person, and you can't establish that level of trust after one session.

As for the therapist themselves, generally they're not at the intellectual or emotional level to realise they're doing it wrong. People get attracted to this job because they're so genuinely want to help and sure when Mary down the road lost her husband didn't she come over here everyday for tea and chats and she said that I was a great help to her.

So many people I know are "trained counsellors" with dips etc and yeah, they might be fine for basic bereavement etc they don't have the skills for this. And there are some I wouldn't let counsel my cat.

I've told one person who didn't handle it well and that has really screwed me up tbh. And I'm kind of more at peace with it than some victims that might be it be more raw for.

THIS is what really gets to me re: the whole rape culture debate. There are people who have experienced the worst of the worst side of this, and they can still look at it objectively and say 'no, there isn't a rape culture in Ireland'. And then you have eejits like LON who write fictional stories and call themselves representatives of actual victims? No. It doesn't work like that. And it's fcuking insulting, to say the least.

I know myself what it's like when people don't handle it well. Some people just aren't able to. And I think that's something you eventually learn to accept, but damn - it's hard, because you lose those people from that very moment. Sure, you can stay in touch, but there will always be something broken in that relationship - be it romantic, platonic, or familial - that can never be fixed. And that's the kind of sh1t that can ruin you. I'm really sorry you had to experience that too.

And if anyone who has experienced all of that, can look at the situation objectively and say 'well, look, I've had some sh1tty experiences but it doesn't mean there's a rape culture in Ireland', then why the hell are these idiots on social media claiming that there is?

please helpThank YOU · 11-03-2017 08:05PM

Grayson wrote: »

Ffs, you're dismissing an argument I constructed without actually constructing a counter argument? Again?

there is two sides to ever story and then there is the truth.

Widdershins · 11-03-2017 08:06PM

Grayson wrote: »

Ffs, you're dismissing an argument I constructed without actually constructing a counter argument? Again?

I think if there was anything in Tralee it was a rape microclimate. A certain type of people will band together and stick up for their cronies no matter what. Applies to all kinds of things.

11-03-2017 08:09PM

Grayson wrote: »

Ffs, you're dismissing an argument I constructed without actually constructing a counter argument? Again?

There ya go.

ivytwine wrote: »

On Kerry.

It was mainly a class thing tbh. She was a single parent- he came from a good family. The reason it stands out because it is an anomaly, and people have been using it as their sole example ever since.

Smegmaniac17 · 11-03-2017 08:24PM

Grayson wrote: »

You're saying that culture is everyone. It's not. No-one would say that. I belong to loads of different cultures. Lad culture, gaming culture, irish culture etc... Saying that a culture exists doesn't mean that everyone belongs to it.

I could say that there's a culture of homophobia in the catholic church. It doesn't mean that all catholics are homophobic. It just means there's a group within the church that are.
Even then there's a large difference in the attitudes to gay people in the church. The new pope for example has a very different attitude than the more right wing members.

This story below is intensely disturbing. The fact that so many people would turn up to support a man convicted of rape is freaky. It shows that in Kerry at least there is a culture (Or sub culture depending on how you classify it) which supports rapists rather than the victim.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/people-queued-to-shake-this-sex-attackers-hand-108061.html

Now that doesn't mean that every single person in the country supports rapists. It doesn't mean that every single person in the country thinks rape is ok. It does show that there are some people with very regressive attitudes.

I think that there is an important distinction to be made between saying that 'there is a culture of rape' in a country and saying 'we live in a rape culture'. The former doesn't imply that rape is normalised and widespread in the country but the latter does! Just like saying that there is a dogging culture or subculture in Ireland doesn't imply that dogging is widespread and normalised but the statement 'we live in a dogging culture' in Ireland does. The likes of LON insists on pedaling the 'we live in a rape culture' narrative and though that doesn't imply that everyone is a rapist, it implies that rape is such a normalised and widespread occurance in society that if you are a person who doesn't rape, you are the exception to the rule. That's why saying that we live in a 'drinking culture' or 'TV watching' culture are appropriate statements, because if you don't do those things in Ireland, yo are the exception and not the rule. Now, I know that some feminists insist on saying that they are not implying that the majority of men are rapists (though some do) , they will then have to discard their 'rape culture' ideology which so many of them seem so unwilling to do for some curious reason! You don't just get to redefine the meanings of words to suit your own narrative! (not you, personally btw)

The case in Kerry was indeed horrific but it was also exceptional. It seems to me to be very insensitive and misguided to make a claim that there is a culture in Kerry that supports rapists based on one exceptional case , as appalling as it is! I know if I was a proud Kerry person, I wouldn't be too happy about that!

please helpThank YOU · 11-03-2017 08:31PM

Donal trump 15 Women alleged he sexual assault them groped them assaulted them. so why is he President of America? ask Louise o Neill go in to a public meeting with President of America Donal trump a live Tv debate and tell him I am Louise o Neill and we have a rape culture in Ireland Like the rape culture in America and he would put her in her place . the have it to rape culture America it start in 1970s by feminist just google iT so is Louise o Neill a copy cat its cool in America we can do the same thing in Ireland.

johnnyskeleton · 11-03-2017 08:36PM

Grayson wrote: »

You're saying that culture is everyone. It's not. No-one would say that. I belong to loads of different cultures. Lad culture, gaming culture, irish culture etc... Saying that a culture exists doesn't mean that everyone belongs to it. I could say that there's a culture of homophobia in the catholic church. It doesn't mean that all catholics are homophobic. It just means there's a group within the church that are.

Let's not be jesuitical about this. LON and others are trying to assert that there is a pervasive culture that endorses or supports rape. She is not saying that some people are rapists even if most people disapprove of rapists. So saying that "rape culture" doesn't apply to everyone just a few people renders the whole thing meaningless. There is simply no insight or controversy in saying that some people are rapists or facilitate rapists and others are not. So what LON is saying is that the majority of our culture is supporting rape.

So pick one of two of your strawmen. Either you believe that there is a pervasive majority culture that supports and endorses rape and we can discuss it with you, or you believe that a tiny minority of people support and endorse rape and we will agree with you, end of discussion.

This story below is intensely disturbing. The fact that so many people would turn up to support a man convicted of rape is freaky. It shows that in Kerry at least there is a culture (Or sub culture depending on how you classify it) which supports rapists rather than the victim.

Yes. As every other poster on this thread has said, that was an awful situation. Luckily though, society through it's media got wind of this awful occurrence and brought widespread attention and condemnation towards those people.

As an aside though, if this were a murder trial, and the accused was convicted of murder, I would be confident that many of his friends, family and acquaintances in the community would stand by him, and would maintain his innocence. This happens all the time.

So while it is wrong that he got such overwhelming support after a guilty verdict, it is not that unusual. Sure Bob Dylan wrote a song about someone who he believed to have been falsely convicted (although later changed his mind). Making a murderer was also a popular show that heavily suggested that the subjects were falsely convicted.

Again, not saying that it is right. As someone who believes in the jury system, I think people should respect that verdict while in court. But it happens all the time.

If people standing by the person convicted of murder doesn't amount to murder culture, why is that case indicative of rape culture?

Let me ask you another question - if a rape accused is acquitted and is sitting alone in the courtroom while dozens of people come up and console the complainant, is that equally wrong? If not, why not?

It does show that there are some people with very regressive attitudes.

I agree with that. But it completely misses the point. No one is disputing that there is a lot of bad stuff in the world. But people on this thread take issue with the fact that these often unconnected bad things are sewn together into a theory that we live in a patriarchal rape culture, and that if I complement a random woman on the street I am implicitly endorsing rape occurring in Kerry or Galway or indeed anywhere.

11-03-2017 08:39PM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Donal trump 15 Women alleged he sexual assault them groped them assaulted them. so why is he President of America? ask Louise o Neill go in to a public meeting with President of America Donal trump a live tv debate and tell him I am Louise o Neill and we have a rape culture in Ireland Like the rape culture America and he would put her in her place . the have it to rape culture America it start in 1970s by feminist just google i. t so is Louise o Neill a copy cat its cool in America we can do the same thing Ireland thing

Is that his Irish cousin?

ivytwine · 11-03-2017 08:40PM

Vela wrote: »

THIS is what really gets to me re: the whole rape culture debate. There are people who have experienced the worst of the worst side of this, and they can still look at it objectively and say 'no, there isn't a rape culture in Ireland'. And then you have eejits like LON who write fictional stories and call themselves representatives of actual victims? No. It doesn't work like that. And it's fcuking insulting, to say the least.

I know myself what it's like when people don't handle it well. Some people just aren't able to. And I think that's something you eventually learn to accept, but damn - it's hard, because you lose those people from that very moment. Sure, you can stay in touch, but there will always be something broken in that relationship - be it romantic, platonic, or familial - that can never be fixed. And that's the kind of sh1t that can ruin you. I'm really sorry you had to experience that too.

And if anyone who has experienced all of that, can look at the situation objectively and say 'well, look, I've had some sh1tty experiences but it doesn't mean there's a rape culture in Ireland', then why the hell are these idiots on social media claiming that there is?

Thank you for that Vela. That's articulated what I couldn't quite do.

For me, without going into too much detail, it was a romantic relationship and he would probably be on here arguing there's a rape culture in Ireland if he uses boards. So I felt safe and that he was a "woke" person and he'd get it and he did not. At all. It damn near destroyed my mind. I again went into denial (not just a river in Egypt but Ivy's favourite place) and minimised how terrible he made me feel. Until again the psych pulled it out of me. it was a while ago and I've had a few flirtations since, I'm nearly back to square one with dating. And I resent him so much. And by extension people who talk a good game and act like they give a ****e when they actually don't.

There isn't a going back with something like that, as you say. I've been really fortunate. I have only told a handful of people. One male friend has been incredible, in particular. And if there's a rape culture why have the vast majority of people I've spoken to about it been nothing but kind?

People use "rape culture" as a meme are by and large using it to fuel their own agenda, whether that's an anti-male or anti-female agenda, or a way to further their career, or to curry favour. Not all of them have bad intentions, not by any means. They get outraged at something that is wrong and they want to stop it. But the problem is this is a CRIME. Have we ever had campaigns to "stop murder"? No cos that would be daft. People are taught murder is wrong, just as they are taught rape is wrong. And every year people disregard both of these basic social rules and decide to do it anyway. We can try and punish these people but some get away with it. Many campaigners I feel forget that there's tons and tons of us out there, people trying to negotiate their way through a world that won't be quite the same, and every one of us are different. Where's the practical help? Because hysteria is not helpful.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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