"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

end of the road · 10-03-2017 11:22PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Morality is what you make of it.
Different cultures, eras, and societies construct their own. Conflict, outrage, offence, war, occurs when different moralities meet. In this case, that of a catholic Ireland of decades ago, and what it considered acceptable to deal with what it regarded as a problem, has met through the literal unearthing of an echo from that past, today's Ireland. Which operates to a different moral framework. Both correct and valid in their own ways. But having particular incompatibilities with the other.

no no . only 1 way is correct and that is how we operate today, all be it that is far from perfect. how unmarried mothers and their children were treated was never correct, i don't care what times it happened in

10-03-2017 11:44PM

Catherine Corless was on the Late Late tonight. She got a huge standing ovation at the end of it. I haven't seen that since October 1994.

One man in the audience spoke about how the local RCC priest knocked on his grandfather's door in a Galway village in the late 1940s and told him that he had a member of his family in the house that was bringing disgrace upon the village and she (the mother of the man in the audience) must be brought to the local home for "disgraced" women. The man, not having a car, put his daughter (who was 7 months pregnant) on his bicycle and cycled 20 miles to the home to leave his daughter with these caring souls.

It's an awful pity that Ireland never replicated Spain in the 1930s and just dragged thousands of these twisted rightwing, conservative, pro-imperialism, pro-fascism, poor-hating servants of the Roman Catholic Church out and kept executing them. Perfect bedfellows for the British Empire in Ireland.

nice_guy80 · 10-03-2017 11:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Catherine Corless was on the Late Late tonight. She got a huge standing ovation at the end of it. I haven't seen that since October 1994.

One man in the audience spoke about how the local RCC priest knocked on his grandfather's door in a Galway village in the late 1940s and told him that he had a member of his family in the house that was bringing disgrace upon the village and she (the mother of the man in the audience) must be brought to the local home for "disgraced" women. The man, not having a car, put his daughter (who was 7 months pregnant) on his bicycle and cycled 20 miles to the home to leave his daughter with these caring souls.

It's an awful pity that Ireland never replicated Spain in the 1930s and just dragged thousands of these twisted rightwing, conservative, pro-imperialism, pro-fascism, poor-hating servants of the Roman Catholic Church out and kept executing them. Perfect bedfellows for the British Empire in Ireland.

hatred doesn't deserve more hatred

the country was delivered into the bussom of the catholic church once the Brits pulled out

nhunter100 · 11-03-2017 12:01AM

Deleted User wrote:

It's an awful pity that Ireland never replicated Spain in the 1930s and just dragged thousands of these twisted rightwing, conservative, pro-imperialism, pro-fascism, poor-hating servants of the Roman Catholic Church out and kept executing them. Perfect bedfellows for the British Empire in Ireland.

Franco was quite happy to let the RCC have free rein with the poorest in society. Search for BBC Spains missing children. Priests selling children to wealthy couples when the poor birth mother has been told that her child had died.

The Rape of Lucretia · 11-03-2017 12:08AM

end of the road wrote: »

no no . only 1 way is correct and that is how we operate today, all be it that is far from perfect. how unmarried mothers and their children were treated was never correct, i don't care what times it happened in

Yes, yes. Only one way is correct today. And another way was correct in the past. Another one again will be correct in the future. To think that we are at 'peak morality' is a ludicrous conceit.

11-03-2017 12:17AM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

hatred doesn't deserve more hatred

the country was delivered into the bussom of the catholic church once the Brits pulled out

I disagree. If McQuaid and the entire Ultramontane cult he propagated in Ireland were decisively put in its box, a lot of hatred would have been prevented. The truth is, of course, that the RCC got away with it precisely because they put themselves forward as defenders of Irish independence against what were, in reality, their steadfast allies in conservatism, the British state. Whether it was 1867, 1916, 1923 or 1937 the RCC was at the forefront of the suppression of the emergence of any radical, socially conscious Irish independence. Consistently. Tom Garvin even points out how the RCC was strongly opposed to Irish independence for as long as possible because they wanted to maintain the monopoly they had on loyalty from the Irish people - they knew if independence were achieved people would transfer their loyalty to the new state and its attendant cultural identity. To this end, they even refused to teach Irish and Irish culture as they didn't want to promote a competing set of cultural and identity values that would challenge the dominance which Roman Catholicism had as a defining identity marker of the Irish in the British state.

In other words, next time Fine Gaelers and other conservatives want to get moral about political violence or the like, let us never, ever forget the section of Irish society who absolutely defended the "Christian", "charitable" terrorism of the poor that went on in villages and RCC institutions across Ireland.

We do not all share the blame for this, as some people contend (curiously, the same sort of socio-economic grouping that contends we all are to blame for the Celtic Tiger collapsing): Ireland's conservative rightwingers in Fine Gael and the rightwing of Fianna Fáil are the very constituency which politically supported this abhorrent treatment of so many of Ireland's most marginal citizens. That is the section of Irish society that profited from the supremacy of the RCC and the values it propagated.

Any chance of the modern Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil parties agreeing that their own parties be thoroughly investigated for their roles in these homes along with the RCC?

nhunter100 · 11-03-2017 12:27AM

Deleted User wrote:

We do not all share the blame for this, as some people contend (curiously, the same sort of socio-economic grouping that contends we all are to blame for the Celtic Tiger collapsing): Ireland's conservative rightwingers in Fine Gael and the rightwing of Fianna FÃ¡il are the very constituency which politically supported this abhorrent treatment of so many of Ireland's most marginal citizens. That is the section of Irish society that profited from the supremacy of the RCC and the values it propagated.

Finally, eloquently put.

11-03-2017 12:32AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Franco was quite happy to let the RCC have free rein with the poorest in society. Search for BBC Spains missing children. Priests selling children to wealthy couples when the poor birth mother has been told that her child had died.

Precisely. And who in Ireland were the number 1 supporters of Franco? Fine Gael and the RCC, to the extent of going there to fight for him against the democratically elected socialist government of Spain. I'm sure Irish people will be impressed by the consistency in evil when they see the following:

Spain's stolen babies and the families who lived a lie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJJ7Pp_Zvvs

11-03-2017 12:32AM

Snickers Man wrote: »

You would then have to answer the question why they were not investigated at the time, given that the minimum standards of reporting the deaths to the authorities seem to have been met. The existence of the documentation, which was where it should have been after all, was how this story came to light, remember?

Is there not the possibility, nay probability, that these deaths were natural and not deliberate? In which case, where's your evidence for murder?

By all means, go back and check that all proper procedures of the time were adhered to. Were there inquests? Probably not because it was a care home. Were there doctor's certificates confirming the deaths and the reasons for them? Are they still in existence?

MAybe a lawyer (I'm not one) could outline what the proper legal procedures are when somebody dies in care. This does happen all the time, after all. If these were all adhered to at the time, the case for "murder" and "genocide" diminishes.

I really don't see an issue with investigating this, the manner in which they died may be documented or reciprocal of the medical enviornment but why were they disposed of in the way they were. If a site like this was found in a random location in the countryside I'm sure it would be duely investigated - just because it happened to be a mother and baby home doesn't make it normal or okay to dispose of bodies as such. Plus im assuming all will have to be accounted for to back up the documents you mentionedo. Seems like an indepth investigation is the only way forward which appears to be due to happen. Determining cause of death and identity where possible, make sure all the numbers and documents add up.

Hopefully in some tiny way this may bring some solace to the survivors of these forsaken places. Even if only one person is helped in the slightest by the investigation itll be worth it. It will take me some time to unhear the stories i have heard i cant even begin to imagine the suffering these women faced at the hands of such evil

nice_guy80 · 11-03-2017 12:41AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree. If McQuaid and the entire Ultramontane cult he propagated in Ireland were decisively put in its box, a lot of hatred would have been prevented. The truth is, of course, that the RCC got away with it precisely because they put themselves forward as defenders of Irish independence against what were, in reality, their steadfast allies in conservatism, the British state. Whether it was 1867, 1916, 1923 or 1937 the RCC was at the forefront of the suppression of the emergence of any radical, socially conscious Irish independence. Consistently. Tom Garvin even points out how the RCC was strongly opposed to Irish independence for as long as possible because they wanted to maintain the monopoly they had on loyalty from the Irish people - they knew if independence were achieved people would transfer their loyalty to the new state and its attendant cultural identity. To this end, they even refused to teach Irish and Irish culture as they didn't want to promote a competing set of cultural and identity values that would challenge the dominance which Roman Catholicism had as a defining identity marker of the Irish in the British state.

In other words, next time Fine Gaelers and other conservatives want to get moral about political violence or the like, let us never, ever forget the section of Irish society who absolutely defended the "Christian", "charitable" terrorism of the poor that went on in villages and RCC institutions across Ireland.

We do not all share the blame for this, as some people contend (curiously, the same sort of socio-economic grouping that contends we all are to blame for the Celtic Tiger collapsing): Ireland's conservative rightwingers in Fine Gael and the rightwing of Fianna Fáil are the very constituency which politically supported this abhorrent treatment of so many of Ireland's most marginal citizens. That is the section of Irish society that profited from the supremacy of the RCC and the values it propagated.

Any chance of the modern Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil parties agreeing that their own parties be thoroughly investigated for their roles in these homes along with the RCC?

good post
fair play

maryishere · 11-03-2017 12:58AM

Deleted User wrote: »

We do not all share the blame for this, as some people contend (curiously, the same sort of socio-economic grouping that contends we all are to blame for the Celtic Tiger collapsing): Ireland's conservative rightwingers in Fine Gael and the rightwing of Fianna Fáil are the very constituency which politically supported this abhorrent treatment of so many of Ireland's most marginal citizens. That is the section of Irish society that profited from the supremacy of the RCC and the values it propagated.

Any chance of the modern Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil parties agreeing that their own parties be thoroughly investigated for their roles in these homes along with the RCC?

What has the babies / nuns to do with political parties like FF and FG, apart from the fact these atrocities happened under the watch of the Irish state, which was governed at the time by FF or FG? The nuns and priests did not ask the political allegiance of those they came across. Nor did they tell them how to vote, although in schools they taught the nationalistic / republican view and people tended to vote accordingly. The RCC was all powerful, it was not compromising when it came to mixed marriages for example, and sometimes priests forbade their parishoners from attending the funerals of protestant neighbours or friends.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

the country was delivered into the bussom of the catholic church once the Brits pulled out

It was a cold house for non catholics in the mid 20th century but it is a very different Ireland now, thankfully.

Noveight · 11-03-2017 12:58AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh dear! From the list of thanks really touched a nerve there. AND YES WE ARE. If we in any way excuse this we are to blame.

Nobody in this thread is excusing it.

Saying we are all to blame for what happened is the height of sensationalist nonsense.

11-03-2017 01:01AM

sondagefaux wrote: »

Impossible to know of every single instance of abuse and neglect?

Yes, it would have been.

An attempt to deflect what?

I've already said that the state is responsible to the extent that it knew what was going on.

If you think that any state can have perfect knowledge of every single crime that's committed then you're just being moronic.

And your attempts to deflect responsibility away from the crimes that were committed by the individuals responsible are pathetic.

If I punch you in the face I'm responsible.

If a nun abused or neglected mothers and infants she was responsible.

Can you bring yourself to admit that simple fact without any qualification or bleating about how society was different back then?

Because if you can't, then you're just an apologist for abusers.

Unbelievably low? No, I'm not a monk or a priest or a nun who abused or neglected mothers or infants. Those creatures were and are unbelievably low.

I have never once excused those who mistreated the mothers and children.
Show me one post where I did so.

Neither have I argued that society was different back then. Quite the opposite, as even a cursory glance at what I wrote will reveal.

You, or the other hand, insist the Government was not responsible. My position is that, where it employed doctors to check on the health of the residents, and provided funding, or rations, to ensure these residents were fed, then any failings to ensure required standards were not met was absolutely the responsibility of the Government. It is actually possible to be complicit in wrongdoing.

Educate yourself, please!

http://www.thejournal.ie/magdalene-laundries-report-finds-direct-state-involvement-783428-Feb2013/

A REPORT COMPILED following an 18-month investigation has found the Irish State was directly and fundamentally involved in the Magdalene Laundry system.
Senator Martin McAleese’s report, published this afternoon, reveals that more than 2,500 women who were incarcerated in the Magdalene Laundries were sent in directly by the State. In reality, that number is higher but many records did not survive.

Further, from Senator McAleese's report (linked above):

B. Rationing

54. Rationing applied in Ireland from 1942 until 1952.
In light of the broad nature of its mandate, the Committee decided that it would be appropriate to attempt to identify what arrangements applied in relation to rationing and the Magdalen Laundries.

But, according to you, the state had no responsibility?

I'm not the one deflecting, here. I'm laying the blame squarely where it belongs, on all the parties involved. From Nuns, to society, to the state. Not one of these parties were innocent of wrongdoing.

That is the plain, unvarnished, truth.

11-03-2017 01:16AM

Deleted User wrote: »

We do not all share the blame for this, as some people contend (curiously, the same sort of socio-economic grouping that contends we all are to blame for the Celtic Tiger collapsing): Ireland's conservative rightwingers in Fine Gael and the rightwing of Fianna Fáil are the very constituency which politically supported this abhorrent treatment of so many of Ireland's most marginal citizens. That is the section of Irish society that profited from the supremacy of the RCC and the values it propagated.
Any chance of the modern Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil parties agreeing that their own parties be thoroughly investigated for their roles in these homes along with the RCC?

No, we certainly do not all share the blame for this. Neither those of us who are living now, nor those who lived then. Plenty of people, as I have said more than once, did not send their relatives to these homes.

Your final paragraph re: investigating the political involvement at the time, is interesting.

Because I have spent much of my time on this thread wondering whether certain posters were party apologists, or just
determined to blame the RCC for all the wrongdoing, as opposed to that for which it was responsible, and conveniently ignore every other aspect of these women and childrens lives.

Certainly, the state should never have been complicit in their incarceration, and arguably, could, and should, have been a lot more supportive.

ChikiChiki · 11-03-2017 04:57AM

kbannon wrote: »

Criminal investigation against who?
On what specific charge(s)?

And why do you think the inquiry will be a whitewash?

Investigate first and then bring charges obviously. Again, the stats dont add up. Do you really believe all them children died of natural causes? I certainly don't.

The inquiry will be a whitewash because of mass systematic and governance failures over decades which the state is ultimately responsible for. The two largest political parties in the country have failed in their duties. Tuam is probably only the tip of the iceberg.

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 06:30AM

Bullocks wrote: »

What is confession really about ? Wonder did these nuns actually confess their real sins ?

Like other aspects of the Church? It is a sincere way of improving your ways. Of not doing wrong. My mother used to b scathing; that RCs went to confession on a Friday then committed the same thing on a Saturday..

If you want to see the ideal, sit in on the Catholic Answers forum. As I did for years on and off.

There are sincere folk around.

I have no idea what the Sisters thought of as sin which is more to the point here.

Given the old wan in the convent which had been told off in the Reports for half starving the children in their care who yelled at me "THOSE CHILDREN WERE LOVED!" Different idea of love? I have no idea any more.

Their choice; their loss. The babies' pain.

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 06:38AM

Samaris wrote: »

That is an interesting point. If you've been aware of this, why have you not said what you know to the authorities before? I'm not particularly trying to be accusatory, but it's an insight into why people may not report things if they're considered "normal", which is pretty relevant to this whole case.

NO they all knew. like the people on the island knew what was happening to that baby there. Like the kind lady who told m there that they were afraid to support me re that etc in case they got left with no care etc.

Still people are scared.

In one small town here where I stood up to someone, a kind lady opined that it was OK for me to do it as "You are strong.'" but she would not do that as she was too scared of ??? Her neighbours it seemed.

It took someone like Catherine Corless ( just read her article on Breakingnews.ie) to do that and she needed the status she had.

They all knew, all knew something was not right, just needs a leader to face it out

And be honest; would YOU do that? No anonymous in a small town remember!

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 06:41AM

maryishere wrote: »

Great post. I am surprised the international media have not picked up on it more. Our government is sweeping things under the carpet, as it always does.
I heard on the radio several times over the past few days how the R Catholic Church has only paid something like 13% of the compensation to abuse victims that it promised to in the early noughties. The govt is doing nothing about that either.

That was well known. Not sure what legally can be done there though. Needs a strong and pure legal expert to sort that and they seem to be thin on the ground :rolleyes::(

Did you see the amount lawyers have made from it all!!!!

Religious orders are not governed by eg the diocese. They are autonomous .

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 06:43AM

valoren wrote: »

There should be a national day of remembrance every year at the bare minimum for those who suffered, continue to suffer and for those who died.

A proper one.
Maybe leverage off an existing bank holiday.

I'd suggest May. When the weather is warm and the days ahead are brighter, to symbolize our country emerging from the darkness of the past.

It won't change the past, but we would never be allowed to forget.

There is already , here in Galway anyways, for the Maggies.

You really think things are different now?

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 06:45AM

Roger_007 wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's true. I thought what was reported was that they paid 13% of the total bill. I don't think they ever agreed to foot the entire bill!

Spot on'; "voluntary contributions"

Believe me, they think they did no wrong. No penitence, only regret and anger they were caught and no guilt ever.

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 06:53AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, the state knew. There is no question of that, and the cynic in me wonders if all the "outrage" of TDs (and their supporters?) - about what happened in these homes isn't just trying to deflect from the State's responsibility.

Re: The knowledge of the clergy.

I wasn't actually talking about the clergy of that time when I mentioned the two priests crying on the altar about abuse - though, in fairness, I'm probably guilty, to an extent, of assuming the priests I know are broadly similar to the priests of that era.
(But, of course, that's impossible, because the time frame is too long.)

You made me think about it - and the reason I made that assumption was because the first priest I mentioned would have been slightly older than you - and he cried openly on the altar at Sunday mass, and apologised to the congregation, when the news about Bishop Casey became public. The whole parish genuinely grieved when he died. (Thankfully, he died before the rest of the scandals became public. It would have destroyed him.)

The second priest would be in his 60s now. He cried when he read the Bishops letter of apology to the Diocese, for abuse suffered by children.

I've known that priest since my early teens. He's a good man.

On the other hand - the priest I mentioned who defended an abuser from the pulpit would be in his early 70s now (rough guess!). He defended an infamous paedophile - and was responsible for a mass walkout from the Chapel by the parishioners.
And, imo - they were perfectly right to walk out!:mad:

I tell you these stories so you can understand why I made the assumptions that all the clergy were not the same.

But, now, the question is - were the clergy who visited these homes (if they visited?) of the same mindset as the two priests who were horrified, or the type that defended the behaviour of a paedophile?

I'm relieved to hear, for instance, that many of the nuns showed kindness.

I genuinely don't know how many of the priests at the time knew exactly what was going on in the homes.

Again, you made me think, when you commented about confessions.

AFAIK - the local priest would normally have gone to the convent to hear Nuns confessions at that time (as in, pre-Vatican 2).

I would assume (I don't know for sure) the same would be true for the nuns in the home, especially since at least one victim left Tuam at 5 years of age, never having seen a bird!:eek:

So, I suppose the question is - did the worst of these Nuns regard their cruelty as a sin to be confessed?

I don't know. Again, maybe some did - and plenty more would have been so self-righteous that they would have blindly considered they were being "righteous", or "saving souls" - or some such false, bulls**t justification.:mad:

So, lots of food for thought, there, for me anyway!:o

All absolutely true!

As to the "sweep it under the carpet" brigade. I'm speechless, I really am - and that doesn't happen very often!:mad:

But, it's AH - and AH, like any discussion forum, or group of people - has it's share of people who see black, or white - and never a shade of grey in between. For whatever reason.

That's why we need an enquiry. The sooner, and the broader the terms - the better.

Adding ti this that where a priest or Sister has openly opposed the abuse? Ousted or sent to Rome. I have talked to good men in the priesthood, in orders who then have themselves been banished overseas.

Oh my; just realised something I had not seen before.. always wondered in the diocesan changes list why so many were being sent to the missions when we need priests here so much. I knew some of them .

Please do not waste energy demanding an inquiry. Look out for needy folk around you instead.

The orders are dying anyways; God is not mocked. Let them live out their short remaining lives in empty luxury, shut away behind sophisticated security systems.

And support eg the Poor Clares who did no wrong and indeed picked up and helped many abuse victims in the love of Jesus, quietly and without acclaim. Myself included

Bullocks · 11-03-2017 06:54AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Like other aspects of the Church? It is a sincere way of improving your ways. Of not doing wrong. My mother used to b scathing; that RCs went to confession on a Friday then committed the same thing on a Saturday..

If you want to see the ideal, sit in on the Catholic Answers forum. As I did for years on and off.

There are sincere folk around.

I have no idea what the Sisters thought of as sin which is more to the point here.

Given the old wan in the convent which had been told off in the Reports for half starving the children in their care who yelled at me "THOSE CHILDREN WERE LOVED!" Different idea of love? I have no idea any more.

Their choice; their loss. The babies' pain.

I think your mother was right , same old sins trotted out and hope the pennance would cover them for the real bad ones they didnt mention if they said an extra hail mary

11-03-2017 06:54AM

Surely there is a hierarchy of blame?

The perpetrator of abuse.
Those who actually knew and covered it up.
Those who turned a blind eye or ignored it.
Those who suspected something but didn't speak out.
Etc. etc.

So we can't say society was to blame as much as the actual abuser, obviously. That would be to excuse or diminish personal responsibility. But on the other hand we cannot completely exonerate it either.

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 07:02AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I suspect its likely that similar things happened at the mother and baby homes and similar institutions: the payments from the state went to the order's central bank account.

There was a pecking order with convents. Sisters from nice families, or who brought bigger dowries, likely got assigned to easier jobs. Others got the heartbreaking jobs where they had to either toughen up or go insane.

The sisters actually working in the homes likely saw little or none of the cash and were undertrained and understaffed with little ability to influence the conditions. You cannot give babies food you dont have.

This doesn't excuse acts of cruelty, of course. But it does explain some.

Nope! That came out in the reports. Each house was autonomous unlike the Mother Teresa houses where she governed with an iron rod,

what went wrong with Mother Teresa was different, She got hooked on "poverty" as being a virtue to be sought out, then started to go really .. crazy

So she inflicted poverty on those she was supposed to serve. Np pain relief in the dying houses, Out of date vaccines.. no food for the babies, refusing eg a crop of tomatoes as they were not allowed to can them as that would be flying against divine providence.

We each have the right to starve ourselves but not to afflct others.

I put on a url and there are others, from Sisters who left after many years,

Here it was just ... ignorance. The money in Mother teresa;s case came from donations. Here it was state funded and they were accountable.

Accounts were submitted and checked .

No excuses. They ate well themselves.

In India the Sisters were largely Indian women

Used to extreme poverty

Needs no training to feed babies. or to cuddle them. Needs humanity is all .

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 07:05AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Morality is what you make of it.
Different cultures, eras, and societies construct their own. Conflict, outrage, offence, war, occurs when different moralities meet. In this case, that of a catholic Ireland of decades ago, and what it considered acceptable to deal with what it regarded as a problem, has met through the literal unearthing of an echo from that past, today's Ireland. Which operates to a different moral framework. Both correct and valid in their own ways. But having particular incompatibilities with the other.

:rolleyes:

:P

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 07:10AM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

hatred doesn't deserve more hatred

the country was delivered into the bussom of the catholic church once the Brits pulled out

Nope. After the Famine the Vatican chose Ireland as the breeding ground literally for a huge force of priests and nuns to then go out and conquer the world for Rome.

google Paul Cardinal Cullen.

Ireland was literally on its knees after the Famine and the weakest layer of society was dead.

Well, they failed. Cost a lot of lives and huge suffering but they failed.

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 07:12AM

222233 wrote: »

I really don't see an issue with investigating this, the manner in which they died may be documented or reciprocal of the medical enviornment but why were they disposed of in the way they were. If a site like this was found in a random location in the countryside I'm sure it would be duely investigated - just because it happened to be a mother and baby home doesn't make it normal or okay to dispose of bodies as such. Plus im assuming all will have to be accounted for to back up the documents you mentionedo. Seems like an indepth investigation is the only way forward which appears to be due to happen. Determining cause of death and identity where possible, make sure all the numbers and documents add up.

Hopefully in some tiny way this may bring some solace to the survivors of these forsaken places. Even if only one person is helped in the slightest by the investigation itll be worth it. It will take me some time to unhear the stories i have heard i cant even begin to imagine the suffering these women faced at the hands of such evil

They cannot even stop puppy farming.

And lawyers are all good RC remember :rolleyes:

Graces7 · 11-03-2017 07:15AM

maryishere wrote: »

What has the babies / nuns to do with political parties like FF and FG, apart from the fact these atrocities happened under the watch of the Irish state, which was governed at the time by FF or FG? The nuns and priests did not ask the political allegiance of those they came across. Nor did they tell them how to vote, although in schools they taught the nationalistic / republican view and people tended to vote accordingly. The RCC was all powerful, it was not compromising when it came to mixed marriages for example, and sometimes priests forbade their parishoners from attending the funerals of protestant neighbours or friends.

It was a cold house for non catholics in the mid 20th century but it is a very different Ireland now, thankfully.[/QUOTE]

Not altogether; Church of Ireland had their own ways as they still do... A middle class church.

Puzzled by what I have bolded. The church held the state in thrall.

Wheeliebin30 · 11-03-2017 08:03AM

What abuse are we talking about here

I thought there was physical and sexual abuse but I cant find anything.

All I can see from reports is psychological abuse and not physical abuse?

I'm trying to find stories of other abuse can anyone put up some links?

Kermit.de.frog · 11-03-2017 09:55AM

Anyone else think these houses might be haunted?

http://c2.thejournal.ie/media/2014/10/tuam-single-mothers-and-babies-homes-10-390x285.jpg

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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