"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

nhunter100

nhunter100 wrote: »

Since a conclusion hasn't been reached I can't answer that. Best not to make assumptions. People assumed the clergy were decent and righteous, we know how that played out.

People assumed all the enquiries they paid for would have consequences of some kind, too - we know how that played out.

nhunter100

Deleted User wrote:

People assumed all the enquiries they paid for would have consequences of some kind, too - we know how that played out.

Some have had consequences and some haven't. Still it's best to stay on topic

nhunter100

nhunter100 wrote: »

Some have had consequences and some haven't. Still it's best to stay on topic

The topic, in your view - being only to focus on what happened in Tuam - horrible as it was - because those women and children didn't exist, or matter, before they entered Tuam, or after they left it?

Sort of narrows the focus a bit, doesn't it?

Let's ignore the state's lack of care for those children who were lucky enough to get out of Tuam, too, shall we?
Because that might, y'know - take the focus off what you consider to be the only target, as opposed to one of the targets....

nhunter100

Deleted User wrote:

The topic, in your view - being only to focus on what happened in Tuam - horrible as it was - because those women and children didn't exist, or matter, before they entered Tuam, or after they left it?

I always try to stay within the topic of the thread. Sometimes I digress but always keen to get back on topic in case I'm accused of whataboutery. If you feel this thread fails to address your own concerns what not start a specific thread of your own.

nhunter100

Deleted User wrote:

Let's ignore the state's lack of care for those children who were lucky enough to get out of Tuam, too, shall we? Because that might, y'know - take the focus off what you consider to be the only target, as opposed to one of the targets....

Target? I don't consider anything or anyone to be a target. Target's are your words not mine.
The focus of this thread is the manner of which the children in the Tuam mother and baby home were dealt with after their deaths by the Nuns who ran the home and were paid for this service. Everything is slightly off topic and in more extreme cases complete deflection from the main issue ( I'll hold my hands up I went off topic aswell).

nhunter100

nhunter100 wrote: »

I always try to stay within the topic of the thread. Sometimes I digress but always keen to get back on topic in case I'm accused of whataboutery. If you feel this thread fails to address your own concerns what not start a specific thread of your own.

So do I.
But, none of the mods seem to have an issue - so I don't either. Whether it suits your particular narrative, or not - it is relevant to the thread topic.

The only whataboutery I've seen on this thread is that of trying to limit people's lives to a very limited time frame.

As in - look what the Nuns done, but don't discuss the state, or society, or any other factor. Now, that's classic whataboutery...

nhunter100

nhunter100 wrote: »

Target? I don't consider anything or anyone to be a target. Target's are your words not mine.
The focus of this thread is the manner of which the children in the Tuam mother and baby home were dealt with after their deaths by the Nuns who ran the home and were paid for this service. Everything is slightly off topic and in more extreme cases complete deflection from the main issue ( I'll hold my hands up I went off topic aswell).

See above.

Graces7

Flam1n1us wrote: »

Does anyone know if the babies in tuam were baptised or not? Afaik its not possible to be buried by RCC if not baptised. If the babies were not baptised, maybe thats why they were treated so callously. if not baptised then why not as it was RCC home run by nuns. If they were baptised then the local church or diocese should have information - can state compel church to release records? Church def has knowledge of what happened..souls for jesus etc...the whole situation makes me angry & ashamed to be irish

it is if you are illegitimate.

Cannot then be buried in "consecrated " ground ( OF COURSE anywhere a tiny baby is buried is consecrated in a very real sense..)

so by not baptising?

Graces7

valoren wrote: »

The cold hard statistics are the smoking gun.

It takes the death of a british worker in Doha to arouse interest in the ongoing problems in Qatar. In effect, the life of british worker mattered, the thousands of migrant workers who have died are inconsequential. That is the message.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38689250

The infant mortality rate was unusually higher than the national average in these M&B homes which espoused care and treatment. The government's of the time put their faith in these homes to deal with the problem of 'fallen' women. They paid these homes to provide a duty of care. But the statistics show the reality.

e.g. an official investigation into deaths in Bessborough carried out by the Cork County medical officer in 1943 confirmed an infant mortality rate of 68%

That is 68 out of every 100 babies dying. Or 680 out of every 1,000 on average.

And it is not like they did not have the finances available.

It is that which drives people's anger. The women and the infants were seen as nothing more than sub-human. And the got the bare minimum of treatment and care. They were against the ideology of a sky wizard whose word was (and still is) insanely taken as fact.

That which drives the headlines, fosters such strong anger is that the babies were disposed of (buried would be too respectful a word) in such a callous manner such as Tuam is the chilling coup de grace, the ultimate insult from the arrogant hyprocrisy of those who continue to pretend to be christian.

Agree with you but not re God. Their behaviour has and had nothing to do with God

And yes, pretend and claim and are not Christian.

Graces7

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I wish I could say I am surprised by this but I'm not. Horrified yes but not surprised.

And the saddest part is that most of those who perpetrated these act are likely to no longer around or would be considered to be in no fit state to face justice.

THANK GOD they are not around any longer for many reasons! I met some of them a few years ago. Be thankful.... to deal with them would be contamination. And they have faced justice.

nhunter100

Deleted User wrote:

As in - look what the Nuns done, but don't discuss the state, or society, or any other factor. Now, that's classic whataboutery...

The Nuns ran the home in Tuam is that correct? deflecting onto society or the state is whataboutery . The Nuns decided the proper place to place the bodies of several children was a disused septic tank, also fact.

Sofiztikated

Graces7 wrote: »

THANK GOD they are not around any longer for many reasons! I met some of them a few years ago. Be thankful.... to deal with them would be contamination. And they have faced justice.

No, they haven't. PERIOD.

(That's how this works, isn't it?)

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually - I'm seeking to find a way to ensure similar doesn't happen to other groups...



I don't know. Care to provide a link?

We know abuses of all kind are happening in 3rd World Countries.

Are we willing to do anything about it?
Ask our TDs to try to have diplomatic pressure put on these Countries? Ask questions about how Foreign aid is spent?

Again: The greatest honour we can pay these women and their babies is to try to stop abuse happening to some other group.

But will we? Will we, hell! It's far more productive to come on Boards and rant about how the perpetrators in this case should be punished (They should - any notion of justice demands it!) - but actually try something constructive?

Not so many takers there, I'm afraid....



No. It's not a cop-out.

It would be a cop out if someone said no-one was guilty of anything, or no-one found to have been guilty of wrong-doing should be punished, because - society.

Of course those guilty of abuse should be punished. No question.

But, should we leave it at that, while professing platitudes of "Never again" - or should we say "What caused this, and how can we make sure no group can ever be abused or taken advantage of in our Society into the future.

My vote is for the constructive option....

Your last para. You can start this in your own daily life. From there it will spread. By example. That is what my family and colleagues are doing. Working now with abused and with abusers. Small acorns to great oaks will grow

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

It will?

Grace. Mary Boyle. Maurice McCabe + all the victims whose complaint was never (allegedly)investigated. Anglo. Bank bailout.
Bank overcharging. Tracker Mortgages.

Most of those in the last 10 years.

But, society has changed. We're all very moral citizens nowadays.

We don't complain about the cost of "welfare" any more - or do we?
And what effect has that had on carers nowadays? Or the disabled?

There's no need to rock the boat. Find one example, apply appropriate punishment, and all potential for future abuse instantly goes away?

Unfortunately - it doesn't!

My word that brings back memories. Long ago on my small island, a couple was neglecting a baby and an older child. Starving etc. . There had been a huge scandal there; Satanic ritual abuse Orkney .... Social Services had snatched children at dawn and there were ructions and staff were sacked.

So they were lying low..the island dr knew but would not intervene unless the family asked..

Someone came to me and unburdened themselves, And i emailed the authorities who after saying they could not open the email attachment, claimed the health worker was visiting and all was OK
The baby nearly died..

And my email jolted the authorities. BUT I had had the neighbour round claiming nothing was wrong so why had i .. rocked the boat

It is a choice many of us make. Do we gossip and complain or do something...

If the boat is stuck on a bank it ****** well needs rocking and if children are in danger?

No it will never prevent future abuse. The thought of punishement never doesn't

I have said since the first abuse scandal emerged that there was no shame, no penitence. only anger that they were caught and this is the case again.

Bredabe

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

after l listen to Joe Duffy live line today this was 100 per cent a big money maker for Tuam Galway at the time . doctors involved in this scandal as well and when then children escaped the local Gardai caught them poor children brought them back to foster home/slaughterhouse to get them ready for market/fostered children industry what have we learned from this nothing as matter of fact this fostered children industry has got bigger government agence hse/tusla with 4000 staff plus there is 4500 children in foster care in Ireland today and hse /tusla Solicitors its massive money to made in this industry so Tuam Galway will keep going on into the future. the basic fostering allowance is currently 352 euros per week per child so we have 4500 children out in foster care which is payout of 1584000 euros a week a month payout is 15840000 euros a year payout is 823680000 euros I hate the word care this is so FAKE

When I queried the amount paid to forster parents in 2001, I was smartly told "its a job, arnt you paid for your job?" made me think of lots of Irish people I had met in my life who could act caring and be anything but, but still collected their money.

Graces7

Sofiztikated wrote: »

No, they haven't. PERIOD.

(That's how this works, isn't it?)

You and I mean different things by justice. They have almost all faced far worse than anything we could do. They knew that all along.


So period yes..

sondagefaux

If I punch you in the face, I am responsible for punching you in the face.

If the authorities know that I punched you in the face, but did nothing to punish me, they are responsible for not punishing me.

If the authorities didn't know that I punched you in the face, and did nothing to punish me, they are not responsible because they weren't aware.

The nuns and other staff of these mother and child homes are responsible for any abuse and neglect they imposed on the mothers and infants in their care.

The state is responsible to the extent that it knew of these abuses and neglect and did nothing to stop them or punish them.

Where the state knew, it's responsible.

Where the state didn't know, it's not responsible.

Pretty simple really.

Sofiztikated

Graces7 wrote: »

You and I mean different things by justice. They have almost all faced far worse than anything we could do. They knew that all along.


So period yes..

“Anyway, if you stop tellin' people it's all sorted out afer they're dead, they might try sorting it all out while they're alive. ”

Graces7

Sofiztikated wrote: »

“Anyway, if you stop tellin' people it's all sorted out afer they're dead, they might try sorting it all out while they're alive. ”

Not a snowball;s chance in hell and that is NOT what I m saying as yu well know. All but 2 of the Bon Secours involved are dead. One remaining has severe "old timers" and the othr is also old and was only every there on holiday

I was simply trying ( I Know. A lost cause) to console those bloodthirsty for "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS" mentality.

Jelle1880

sondagefaux wrote: »

If I punch you in the face, I am responsible for punching you in the face.

If the authorities know that I punched you in the face, but did nothing to punish me, they are responsible for not punishing me.

If the authorities didn't know that I punched you in the face, and did nothing to punish me, they are not responsible because they weren't aware.

The nuns and other staff of these mother and child homes are responsible for any abuse and neglect they imposed on the mothers and infants in their care.

The state is responsible to the extent that it knew of these abuses and neglect and did nothing to stop them or punish them.

Where the state knew, it's responsible.

Where the state didn't know, it's not responsible.

Pretty simple really.

What if the State decided they didn't want to know ?

Graces7

nhunter100 wrote: »

Some of the deceased children were toddlers. The oldest I believe was 3 years old. Quite unusual not to have a 3 years old baptised. No withstanding baptism basic human decency would dictate your treat the remains with some dignity. A septic tank is not a dignified burial place.

One was NINE.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

My word that brings back memories. Long ago on my small island, a couple was neglecting a baby and an older child. Starving etc. . There had been a huge scandal there; Satanic ritual abuse Orkney .... Social Services had snatched children at dawn and there were ructions and staff were sacked.

So they were lying low..the island dr knew but would not intervene unless the family asked..

Someone came to me and unburdened themselves, And i emailed the authorities who after saying they could not open the email attachment, claimed the health worker was visiting and all was OK
The baby nearly died..

And my email jolted the authorities. BUT I had had the neighbour round claiming nothing was wrong so why had i .. rocked the boat

It is a choice many of us make. Do we gossip and complain or do something...

If the boat is stuck on a bank it ****** well needs rocking and if children are in danger?

No it will never prevent future abuse. The thought of punishement never doesn't

I have said since the first abuse scandal emerged that there was no shame, no penitence. only anger that they were caught and this is the case again.

PS a small warning!
Before you take any preemptive action against any "authority" Please make sure you and all you love are safe. i

I did not do so on the island and as a result, found myself without any medical care withing reach and I am disabled and semi bedbound...

same has almost happened here as I had cause to make a very serious and valid report re some grossly unprofessional behaviours.

As others have found, whistleblowing costs; no regrets here
But "The establishment" has long and powerful tentacles..

OKmy bedtime here.. have a good evening!

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

My word that brings back memories. Long ago on my small island, a couple was neglecting a baby and an older child. Starving etc. . There had been a huge scandal there; Satanic ritual abuse Orkney .... Social Services had snatched children at dawn and there were ructions and staff were sacked.

So they were lying low..the island dr knew but would not intervene unless the family asked..

Someone came to me and unburdened themselves, And i emailed the authorities who after saying they could not open the email attachment, claimed the health worker was visiting and all was OK
The baby nearly died..

And my email jolted the authorities. BUT I had had the neighbour round claiming nothing was wrong so why had i .. rocked the boat

It is a choice many of us make. Do we gossip and complain or do something...

If the boat is stuck on a bank it ****** well needs rocking and if children are in danger?

No it will never prevent future abuse. The thought of punishement never doesn't

I have said since the first abuse scandal emerged that there was no shame, no penitence. only anger that they were caught and this is the case again.

The boat absolutely needs rocking. There are a lot of boats that need rocking still.

But some here would prefer to shout all about their justified indignation, as long as it doesn't involve them trying to do anything useful themselves - and in 20, or 30 years time, the same people will be baying for justice again, but never question whether they could have done anything to help justice along.

I notice those same people are so unquestionably right (in their own minds, anyway) about what they say, that they never actually really consider what the victims want, or believe.

I don't know about the penitence angle.

I've seen two different priests in tears on the altar about the abuse scandals. Good priests, that never hurt anyone.

Then, I've heard of priests defending known abusers on the altar.

I don't think we can honestly judge all the clergy the same.
Some should be ashamed of themselves, and aren't, and others, who have done nothing wrong, are the ones who do feel ashamed.
Still others seem to think that they are the only ones qualified to judge:rolleyes:.

I haven't spoken to a nun in years, and can't really say anything about what they think. I'd guess their attitudes are about as varied as the priests - but I can't say for certain.

please helpThank YOU

Bredabe wrote: »

When I queried the amount paid to forster parents in 2001, I was smartly told "its a job, arnt you paid for your job?" made me think of lots of Irish people I had met in my life who could act caring and be anything but, but still collected their money.

you are 100 per cent rite I know of a women who has 7 foster paid children and she earns 353 euros a week peer child x that by 7 =2471 euros a week that is this =128492 euros a year now the same women is landlord she evicted very young children and there families out on the road on christmas eve the word to me care/ is Fake and its about Money Money:mad: and now a lot of her rich friends are doing the same and I know of one case where the are SUBCONTRACT ING the children to people who are not foster paid .

Bredabe

I grew up in a time when it was ok to ship pregnant youngsters off to a convent or home, it was done to make reparation for that girl's sin and to preserve her families or siblings reputation. It was very much the fashion to think it was ok as the girl was a sinner and had anything that happened to her as her due for being a fallen women(rape and incest were never considered as a factor) none gave a toss what happened in the home/laundries to the girl or her child. families who didn't send their daughters away were alienated by society and employers and many were thrown out of their rented houses. The devil and his evil works were very much present in that society.

For any men of a certain age who wondered why women were so reluctant to "take a chance" and have sex with them(contraception was only made freely available in the late '80's), take note, THIS more likely to be the reason to be why as apposed to the usual labels of lesbianism/snobbery/ugliness.

I was born in a time of plenty, yet I nearly died of malnutrition, my mum could not breast feed me, so the option was to bottle feed me, the norm at the time being COW'S milk, a substance which has one of the highest allergy rates in Ireland, a child allergic to milk/bread/meat(as I am) was and still is unheard of in some places. I say this to illustrate that not all babies who die of malnutrition in that time frame did so cause of a lack of food.

please helpThank YOU

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

you are 100 per cent rite I know of a women who has 7 foster paid children and she earns 353 euros a week peer child x that by 7 =2471 euros a week that is this =128492 euros a year now the same women is landlord she evicted very young children and there families out on the road on christmas eve the word to me care/ is Fake and its about Money Money:mad: and now a lot of her rich friends are doing the same and I know of one case where the are SUBCONTRACT ING the children to people who are not foster paid .

Report it.

You don't even have to give your name, if you don't want to.

That's just not good enough, and it shouldn't even be possible if the social workers were doing their jobs, and checking on these children.

kylith

https://lovin.ie/news/d%C3%A1il-hearing-on-tuam-babies-delayed-due-to-low-turnout

I am very cross about this.

kylith

kylith wrote: »

https://lovin.ie/news/d%C3%A1il-hearing-on-tuam-babies-delayed-due-to-low-turnout

I am very cross about this.

It speaks volumes about the establishment.

Lots of outraged pr statements for the media, then business as usual....or, in this case, not!

please helpThank YOU

Deleted User wrote: »

Report it.

You don't even have to give your name, if you don't want to.

That's just not good enough, and it shouldn't even be possible if the social workers were doing their jobs, and checking on these children.

I will do you see what happened the people who reported the Grace/Anne case ?how can people have fate in this Government Organisation

please helpThank YOU

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

I will do you see what happened the people who reported the Grace/Anne case ?how can people have fate in this Government Organisation

I know. The system is just wrong. But, like I said, you don't have to give your name.

If you're worried about the consequences, just type a letter, don't sign it, make a couple of copies, and post one to social services, one to Katherine Zappone, and one to your choice of TD.

I'll be surprised if Zappone doesn't look at it, given the Grace scandal just now.
She's in the spotlight as Minister for Children.