"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

nhunter100 · 08-03-2017 11:16AM

Shurimgreat wrote:

There are far more good priests and nuns than bad ones.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men (women) to do nothing." Edmund Burke 1729-1797

infogiver · 08-03-2017 11:17AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Why does it matter what the locals in tuam do? Or say?
I'm sure they are as disgusted by the way the babies bodies were treated, just like the rest of the country.
Why do they need to come out crying?

to satisfy the baying pitch forking mobs desire to see the persons they think are to blame showing some contrition?
you do realise that the current residents of Tuam are partially responsible for the babys buried in the town in 1921???

Shurimgreat · 08-03-2017 11:18AM

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Plenty speak out? Who in the RCC has accepted a criminal investigation needs take place.. Who in the CC authority has come out and called this a crime? Who has spoken about the failure to act on the Murphy and Ryan reports findings? Who has spoken out about the evil that has systematically blocked the payments to victims and their families? We can't turn back time? Seriously? This is a crime which needs a full investigation, we all need to know the who, the what, the where and the how.. and people, human beings, who are hiding behind the RCC need to be rooted out and held accountable.

The crying about everyone calling the whole RCC evil is a subjective response and wearing thin. Look at the facts: this is a crime and the individuals who are responsible need to be held accountable. The RCC is being evasive and not calling for, assisting or being supportive of a full criminal investigation.

I could be wrong here but I'd say 90% of sexual abuse in the past happened outside the RCC. That doesn't make the crimes of the church any less serious. But people are looking for sticks to beat the church while ignoring everything else.

The Mother and Baby homes are a classic case of society dumping its problems in one home or convenient place and forgetting about it.

These babies were let down by their own families too, I hope that is not forgotten.

jimmy blevins · 08-03-2017 11:18AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Direct Provision
Aras Attracta
Grace
Garda McCabe

Do any other western countries have all of these?

Yes, if you look close enough.

nhunter100 · 08-03-2017 11:19AM

Shurimgreat wrote:

I hope any enquiry into Mother and Baby homes looks at wider society and asks who these babies were, who their parents were, how they came to be conceived (some the result of rape for example?) and if there was any criminal responsibility. Its time to humanise these babies rather than have them as mere statistics.

How was responsible for the treatment these unfortunates recieved inside the homes? Did wider society take a hand in the abuse both physical and mental? Who consigned the dead children to a disused septic tank?

nhunter100 · 08-03-2017 11:21AM

Shurimgreat wrote:

Whether its shameful or not to have a baby out of wedlock, the man and woman and their parents should have dealt with the situation first, rather than dumping the child somewhere and making it someone else's problem.

Many did but, I guess you wish to ignore the evidence of priests and nuns turning up to people's doors encouraging them to 'do the right thing'.

08-03-2017 11:22AM

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Plenty speak out? 1:Who in the RCC has accepted a criminal investigation needs take place..2Who in the CC authority has come out and called this a crime? Who has spoken about the failure to act on the Murphy and Ryan reports findings? Who has spoken out about the evil that has systematically blocked the payments to victims and their families? We can't turn back time? Seriously? This is a crime which needs a full investigation, we all need to know the who, the what, the where and the how.. and people, human beings, who are hiding behind the RCC need to be rooted out and held accountable.

The crying about everyone calling the whole RCC evil is a subjective response and wearing thin. Look at the facts: this is a crime and the individuals who are responsible need to be held accountable. The RCC is being evasive and not calling for, assisting or being supportive of a full criminal investigation.

1: Pretty much all of us.

2. At a rough guess, I'd imagine they are waiting for the results of the criminal investigation, or enquiry, or whatever course of action the Government chooses to take, to ascertain whether a crime was committed/what crimes were committed, first.

I'd certainly support a full investigation, criminal and/or civil. I do believe those responsible need to be held accountable.

Frankly, I don't care whether you think my response is wearing thin, or not.

The entire Catholic Church - that is, the members, together with the hierarchy - is not evil.

Certainly, great evil has been done in its name. But in accusing the entire Church of being evil, you are saying that all of its members are evil - which is blatant nonsense - and it's wearing very thin.

jimmy blevins · 08-03-2017 11:31AM

We still have far too much "respect" for the professional classes in this country, if crimes are committed it's nobodies fault that will be investigated by a powerless tribunal. The Grace case is just another example, there people currently in the HSE who let this happen with apparently no consequences for themselves.

Mr.Wemmick · 08-03-2017 11:36AM

Sources please - proof of the leaders within the Church asking for a criminal investigation.

The RCC has in the recent past hidden criminals and did not act on reports findings and is doing so again by not calling for a full investigation. The evil is within the system which allows for the hiding of criminals, blocking investigations and failure to pay victims and their families even when they have been instructed to do so.

nhunter100 · 08-03-2017 11:42AM

infogiver wrote:

to satisfy the baying pitch forking mobs desire to see the persons they think are to blame showing some contrition?

What a particularly nasty comment, those wishing to see the remains of those children in Tuam being treated with respect are not a baying mob!!. As for contrition no I'd rather see those responsible in front of an enquiry and them a court of law if charges are warranted. Lastly to see the Bon Secour order hit where it really matters to them, the wallet.

Shurimgreat · 08-03-2017 11:45AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

How was responsible for the treatment these unfortunates recieved inside the homes? Did wider society take a hand in the abuse both physical and mental? Who consigned the dead children to a disused septic tank?

Read my previous posts.
Do you honestly think the Mother Superior or any of the nuns did the actual "dirty work" of burying the babies. They probably had workmen or caretakers do this. That would be a good place to start with regards who knew what.

Also the various inspections over the years. Who did them and why didn't they see anything wrong. Was their corruption involved?

Again I do not want to take from the responsibility of the nuns, but I am not buying the notion that no-one else knew anything, the nuns were solely responsible and the church is evil and everyone else is pure as snow. Nothing is ever black and white.

I like others want to know, who knew what and why they didn't put a stop to it.

At the end of the day, the government of the day had the ability to put an end to all this, but clearly they messed up. And so the question should be asked were there inspections and how come all of this was missed?

nhunter100 · 08-03-2017 11:51AM

Shurimgreat wrote:

Read my previous posts. Do you honestly think the Mother Superior or any of the nuns did the actual "dirty work" of burying the babies. They probably had workmen or caretakers do this. That would be a good place to start with regards who knew what.

The workmen and caretakers got their instructions from whom?

nhunter100 · 08-03-2017 11:53AM

Shurimgreat wrote:

At the end of the day, the government of the day had the ability to put an end to all this, but clearly they messed up. And so the question should be asked were there inspections and how come all of this was missed?

The government likely a lot of society were beholden to the church. Something alot of posters here wish to try a.d side step. Did you ever hear of Bishop McQuaid in Dublin. He weilded enormous power for a 'clergyman'.

valoren · 08-03-2017 11:56AM

Regarding blame and responsibility.

A good analogy for me is of a business.
A business wants to make money.
While it's marketing spin convinces you that it is an ethical, responsible company, it ultimately wants to make as much money as possible.

People have been fans of it's products for decades, the clothes and shoes are continually redesigned.
They are constantly in demand.

This business is public and is owned by shareholders.
Anyone can 'convert' to this company, by buying a share in the company.
The shareholders elect and form a board of directors.
The board elects a CEO of operations for the business.

To make new products one of the executives on this board makes the case for manufacturing the clothes overseas in a 3rd world country.
They can produce a unit of clothing for $3. They can sell it for $100.
The company employ another business (a religious order in the analogy) to hire, fire people to manufacture the clothes.
Conditions in the factory which this business uses are diabolical.
The business is ruthless. The employees have little rights.
They are worked to the bone. Many become weak.
Some die due to the harsh conditions.

Frequent visits are made by the main company to oversee production.
They see the ridiculous conditions in the factories. They see reports of employee deaths.
They report back to the board of directors who care for nothing but driving down costs.

Reports are made in mainstream media about the manufacturing arrangement of the company.
People are outraged. Deaths? A dollar a day pay? Boycotts are advocated. The company suffers reputational damage.
It promises enquiries, inspections, reports etc. It promises to pay more, to look into changing it's processes and procedures.

But. People still buy the clothes for $100. People still by the shoes for $150.
Nothing changes. People still suffer and die.

Who ultimately is to blame for the deaths of the workers?

The board member who initiated the manufacturing processes?
The CEO who approved of financing it?
The shareholders who profit from third world slave labour?
The people who continually buy the products?
The local businesses that cover their tracks about abuse of workers?

Blame is subjective. It's not so black and white.

08-03-2017 11:59AM

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Sources please - proof of the leaders within the Church asking for a criminal investigation.

Nice try. Let me remind you of what you asked - and what I responded:

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Plenty speak out?1: Who in the RCC has accepted a criminal investigation needs take place..

2:Who in the CC authority has come out and called this a crime?

Deleted User wrote: »

1: Pretty much all of us.

2. At a rough guess, I'd imagine they are waiting for the results of the criminal investigation, or enquiry, or whatever course of action the Government chooses to take, to ascertain whether a crime was committed/what crimes were committed, first.

I'd certainly support a full investigation, criminal and/or civil. I do believe those responsible need to be held accountable.

Frankly, I don't care whether you think my response is wearing thin, or not.

The entire Catholic Church - that is, the members, together with the hierarchy - is not evil.

Certainly, great evil has been done in its name. But in accusing the entire Church of being evil, you are saying that all of its members are evil - which is blatant nonsense - and it's wearing very thin.

If I had actually claimed that the leaders within the Church have asked for a criminal investigation, you would have grounds to ask for a source.

Moving the goalposts gives you no such right...

laoch na mona · 08-03-2017 12:02PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Read my previous posts.
Do you honestly think the Mother Superior or any of the nuns did the actual "dirty work" of burying the babies. They probably had workmen or caretakers do this. That would be a good place to start with regards who knew what.

Also the various inspections over the years. Who did them and why didn't they see anything wrong. Was their corruption involved?

Again I do not want to take from the responsibility of the nuns, but I am not buying the notion that no-one else knew anything, the nuns were solely responsible and the church is evil and everyone else is pure as snow. Nothing is ever black and white.

I like others want to know, who knew what and why they didn't put a stop to it.

At the end of the day, the government of the day had the ability to put an end to all this, but clearly they messed up. And so the question should be asked were there inspections and how come all of this was missed?

Irish society was rotten to the core and respectable people didn't want to fall foul of the church. Poor people were the bulk of the victims of the catholic institutions.

I agree that the church alone isn't to blame but considering the strength of the church hegemony over social life I think it is fair to say they are ultimately responsible. After all the church condition society to accept this system

08-03-2017 12:08PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

Irish society was rotten to the core and respectable people didn't want to fall foul of the church. Poor people were the bulk of the victims of the catholic institutions.

I agree that the church alone isn't to blame but considering the strength of the church hegemony over social life I think it is fair to say they are ultimately responsible. After all the church condition society to accept this system

Irish society was rotten to the core - it still is, in some ways.

But poor people were by no means the only victims of these institutions.

For instance, my grandparents weren't rich, but they still raised their grandchild.
My mother's friend, on the other hand, came from a very financially comfortable, if not exactly rich, household. They still denied their Grandchild, and dumped their daughter in one of those hellholes...

jimgoose · 08-03-2017 12:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Irish society was rotten to the core - it still is, in some ways.

But poor people were by no means the only victims of these institutions.

For instance, my grandparents weren't rich, but they still raised their grandchild.
My mother's friend, on the other hand, came from a very financially comfortable, if not exactly rich, household. They still denied their Grandchild, and dumped their daughter in one of those hellholes...

In my own experience, both direct and anecdotal, you find what most would consider a disproportionate amount of comfortable, respectable families sending girls and young women to these indescribable places, and a likewise disproportionate amount of poorer, "lower-order" families who wouldn't dream of it.

Dr Crayfish · 08-03-2017 12:19PM

Wouldn't it be nice if someone from the Catholic church actually came out and said they were ashamed, without talking about being shocked? How is Enda Kenny shocked having been in Irish politics since the 70s? He must have been aware of cover ups in this country.
It's heartbreaking. Young mother treated like lepers by these sadistic monsters. We get one chance at life and they had to deal with cruel nuns. I'm finding it hard to read too much into this story, right in our backyard (literally), to think this went on.

laoch na mona · 08-03-2017 12:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Irish society was rotten to the core - it still is, in some ways.

But poor people were by no means the only victims of these institutions.

For instance, my grandparents weren't rich, but they still raised their grandchild.
My mother's friend, on the other hand, came from a very financially comfortable, if not exactly rich, household. They still denied their Grandchild, and dumped their daughter in one of those hellholes...

Never said that but in the case of the industrial schools and laundries especially being poor could get you sent to an institution

Zebra3 · 08-03-2017 12:19PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There are far more good priests and nuns than bad ones.

Unfortunately, this gets lost in the clamour to blame the church for all societies ills.

Man gets woman pregnant and clears off. The church gets the blame.

Quite staggering the levels of BS.

Church gets blame for man doing a runner?

Really?

That's the line you're going for?

Not "church blamed for institutional child abuse, torture, slavery"?

Wow. :rolleyes:

You should have been in that story about Jaysus getting executed. You could've been the bloke who sentenced him.

Let me know if you need a towel.

laoch na mona · 08-03-2017 12:22PM

jimgoose wrote: »

In my own experience, both direct and anecdotal, you find what most would consider a disproportionate amount of comfortable, respectable families sending girls and young women to these indescribable places, and a likewise disproportionate amount of poorer, "lower-order" families who wouldn't dream of it.

My own grandfather was once such case, born outside marriage in 1924, to a rural smallholder family, its a miracle he wasn't born in one of these holes

But my point was referring to catholic ran institutions in general not just mother and baby homes, and poor people were much more likely to end up in industrial schools or laundries

Mr.Wemmick · 08-03-2017 12:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice try. Let me remind you of what you asked - and what I responded:

If I had actually claimed that the leaders within the Church have asked for a criminal investigation, you would have grounds to ask for a source.

Moving the goalposts gives you no such right...

Haha! Moving goal posts.. grounds to ask for a source? That's really funny.. think I've landed on Craggy Island.

No need for any proof that the RCC wants an investigation then, they just do because you say so in a general non-specific way. How dare I ask that, lol. Actually I don't think you have anything other than subjective opinion so are not in the position to claim anything factual about the RCC, as you have no proof, just opinion..

The rest of us, who want clarity and accountability, base our thinking on facts, proven facts via past investigations and findings. And now we call for more facts to be discovered by taking proper action, meanwhile the Church isn't calling for any official investigations to take place.

08-03-2017 01:00PM

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Haha! Moving goal posts.. grounds to ask for a source? That's really funny.. think I've landed on Craggy Island.

No need for any proof that the RCC wants an investigation then, they just do because you say so in a general non-specific way. How dare I ask that, lol. Actually I don't think you have anything other than subjective opinion so are not in the position to claim anything factual about the RCC, as you have no proof, just opinion..

The rest of us, who want clarity and accountability, base our thinking on facts, proven facts via past investigations and findings. And now we call for more facts to be discovered by taking proper action, meanwhile the Church isn't calling for any official investigations to take place.

Do you actually know the difference between the Catholic Church, and the "leaders" or Hierarchy of that Church?

Because your post displays a woeful lack of knowledge of this very basic difference.

The Catholic Church is it's members - all of them. Which is why I said pretty much all of us want an investigation.

So, now that we've determined that your "rest of us" includes my "pretty much all of us"- what was it you were saying about "facts", again?

The Rape of Lucretia · 08-03-2017 01:11PM

Cdosrun wrote: »

You are a total troll.
Many of us lived at the time and were in the homes.
It is sickening to read your posts.

I am not.

I dont doubt.

Wider society has to accept blame, not just a hang-em-high attitude of revenge or anger from a different cultural context.

Zebra3 · 08-03-2017 01:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you actually know the difference between the Catholic Church, and the "leaders" or Hierarchy of that Church?

Because your post displays a woeful lack of knowledge of this very basic difference.

The Catholic Church is it's members - all of them. Which is why I said pretty much all of us want an investigation.

So, now that we've determined that your "rest of us" includes my "pretty much all of us"- what was it you were saying about "facts", again?

When did the RC Church ever ask the opinion of the plebs?

You're just meant to turn up once a week, get spoken down to from a man up on the altar, hand over the cash and repeat the same mantra.

It's one thing about the CoI. It maybe a different variation of the same nonsense, but at least it's more of a bottom up organisation* than the Roman one.

*Please, no jokes.

The Rape of Lucretia · 08-03-2017 01:14PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Certain posters seem to be determined to try and dilute the capability of the church and the religious orders, in other words spread the blame.

The blame is indeed with ALL. The church and religious order were Irish, and part of Irish society. They did not operate in a vacuum. They prevailing cultural norms created an environment where such behaviour was promoted, and tolerated outside that.
People of the time really are delusional if they are unwilling to accept a collective blame (and it wouldnt even call it blame exactly - it was rather a chosen way society at the time agreed to function) - and even worse and hypocritical if they go pointing the finger at individuals or organisation at this remove.

jimgoose · 08-03-2017 01:15PM

When we are born, we cry that we are come
To this great stage of fools.

nhunter100 · 08-03-2017 01:19PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Wider society has to accept blame, not just a hang-em-high attitude of revenge or anger from a different cultural context.

The last home closed in '96. My son was born in '99. Should he accept some of the blame?

nhunter100 · 08-03-2017 01:23PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

The blame is indeed with ALL. The church and religious order were Irish, and part of Irish society. They did not operate in a vacuum. They prevailing cultural norms created an environment where such behaviour was promoted, and tolerated outside that. People of the time really are delusional if they are unwilling to accept a collective blame (and it wouldnt even call it blame exactly - it was rather a chosen way society at the time agreed to function) - and even worse and hypocritical if they go pointing the finger at individuals or organisation at this remove.

So you wish to dismiss the power and influence the church had on society? Society didn't tell the clergy hoe to behave with children or the most vulnerable. The clergy claimed to follow the teachings of the Bible. Anyone know where in the Bible it says dead children should be consigned to septic tanks, living children if possible be sold to rich middle class families and the women in the churches care abused and forced to do menial work. Maybe just one passage?

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Comments