"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

infogiver wrote: »

Well where is the thread full of outrage for Grace? A living breathing person who was dumped by the state in a hell hole for 20 years where she was sexually and physically abused with the full knowledge of the HSE? The HSE and TUSLA actually lied to her mother any time she enquired about her and 11 paid employees of the state who knew of her plight CONTINUE to be paid by the state to this very day and the "foster" parents continue to enjoy complete anonymity, but hey, I suppose it's a bit too close to home, a bit too near the bone for some people.

Only one of the foster parents are still alive.

infogiver wrote: »

Excellent post and I agree entirely.
Unfortunately as you can see from this thread, and if Boards is even remotely representative of Irish public opinion, people don't really want an expansive investigation into what role all the organs of the State played in this grotesque horror.
That might reveal that Irish people on the whole were a harsh judgmental cold hearted race, and we wouldn't really like that.
No, please just jump to the bit where the evil RCC monsters are to blame and no one else thank you very much.

You and I must be reading different threads. You're spreading your bias and righteous judgement very liberally.. why do you think the many calls for a criminal investigation will not come about because it will pull state officials, Guards, Doctors right smack into the middle of it. Folks on this thread and others are consistently crying out for criminal action, are you not reading those posts or willfully ignoring them?

The blame doesn't lie with today's population or posters on this thread. In fact the conditions of opaque accountability, loose hard-to-pin-down laws are as relevant today as they were then. How many rapes by a person of power goes unreported today because the victim and their family are scared knowing full well they have no real protection against a guard or a politician. The fear in society is as evident today as it was back then.. how many fecking stories have I heard from people about brutal and corrupt guards and no rules/ regs in place to deal with it and root the culprits out of a system which protects and hides them.

It's easy to pin it on the Church because it is clear: they are the ones that had all the children in their care. They are the ones who had a duty of care to those babies, were paid to care by the state, they are the ones that did the crime. Go after them first and let the chips fall where they may.

Simples.

nhunter100 wrote: »

Certain posters seem to be determined to try and dilute the capability of the church and the religious orders, in other words spread the blame.

Ah! So, it's a self-motivated, self-driven high-handed bias stick to beat us all over the head with.

I think everyone reacts to these horrors differently. Many are angry at the Irish as a whole, hate the fact that so many are religious, on and on.. the rage..

Many old people don't get out, or don't see anyone for days. Church is a way for them to put on the one nice coat, the hat or that nice scarf and go see people and have a chat. Once a week, a social gathering. Worse years ago, I reckon, when poverty and hard work/slog were a constant and Church was the one place you might have got a rest a chance to see folks. We forget for many in remote parts of the country it was the weekly visit to church that got people together.. it function was as social as it was religious.

Not all members of the church are bad people. We know this, right? Terrible that they do not speak out, are they too scared to shout out, stay silent? The same as it was in the 50s/60s/70s.. ?

On those who question why people of that time didn't speak out, it helps to understand how within the framework of the catholic church there is a powerful mechanism inbuilt to prevent and suppress those who would seek to challenge it's authority.

Any conscientious person who sought to call out abuse, challenge their authority was being tempted by the devil. The church was infallible in that regard. The fear of the devil was a very real thing. He could be invoked any time someone was foolhardy enough to fall out with those involved with the church, who questioned it in any way that could expose it. Objectionable people became a threat to the system, and summoning the devil and all his temptations allowed the church to go nuclear on any individual. Reputation is everything. And to have it besmirched by inferring that you were in league with satan himself was a social, financial and personal death sentence.

I had a similar experience myself with this defense mechanism.

My mother was (thankfully) part of a sect in the Catholic Church which does something similar.
It's the neocathechumenate way. It's where you have these groups of people called 'communities' who meet weekly to pray and have mass. You read the gospels, talk about what it means to you personally and sing and dance.

So far so good. The whole idea is that you are following the way of Christ, which is the way to be a christian according to the founder. You are made to feel unique, special. When you've become inculcated over the course of a year or so, then to complete your indoctrination you are asked to reveal what your cross in life is. If you are reticent then you are repeatedly told that this is necessary. They insinuate that you are not special and are not part of God's way etc if you fail to reveal the truth in the eyes of Christ. Guilt tripped on a divine scale so to speak. Many of my cousins were involved.
This is usually a private and very personal thing. They don't accept anything like 'I got a speeding fine last week and my wife doesn't know'.

It had to be your biggest sin. And the juicier the better for them, particularly anything sexual from what I researched.
It could be that you were sexually abused as a child, are an alcoholic or drug addict, you beat your wife, you cheated on your husband, you get the idea. Something deeply private and personal. That was the trap. When you reveal to a group something like that then it has a profound effect psychologically. You are far more likely to remain in case such information was made public. After this is done, the time taken up in activities within the sect really ramp up and it get's to the point where you feel that your life is taken over by activities within the Way. My mother had told them about my father's alcoholism. That she stuck by him, through the suffering was her own cross.

I started reading online about this Way. It was abundantly clear to me that this way was nothing but a cult, a money making operation. I spoke to my mother about it and made my case against it to her. Basically, what was wrong with simply going to Mass? But she enjoyed the company of my cousins, it became a social event for her.

One week they met at my mother's house for what they called a convivance. I happened to be there and one of my cousins asked to have a word with me. My mother, being an open and honest woman, had expressed her concerns to the group.

I was explicitly told that my research was simply me being tempted by the devil. I believe my reply involved such words as Off and Fcuk.

Asking questions, looking for accountability is a serious no no with cults like the Way and to a greater extent the RCC.

That was 10 years ago. Not the 1950's. Some things never change.

The women who had babies were seen as tempted by the devil. That was a serious charge. It was taken at face value. It may seem laughable now but at the time it was taken incredibly seriously. The babies born to fallen women, who had fallen in the eyes of God, were deemed the products of that sin. And they were treated as such and disposed of as such where necessary. They weren't married. That was their only 'crime'.

pedigree 6 wrote: »

In fairness it wasn't hard for the Catholic community to go along with what the priest preached from the pulpit.
The protestants were always looked at as outsiders of this country (especially rural Ireland ) even though families could be here for half a millennium.
Then throw in jealousy of farms or businesses and perceivation that somehow it doesn't belong to them and you can see how things could get petty and esculate.

The boycott ended when the local priest bought a packet of smokes in the local shop run by a protestant woman.

But Ireland was a horrific place.
Mixed marriages were forced by the Catholic church to bring up their children as Catholics. As apparently church of Ireland doesn't matter and you go to hell.

My mother was actually told that by the local parish priest one day.
She was playing with her sister outside the house on the road and the priest was walking by.
He stops and tells them that they should convert to Catholicism or otherwise they will go to hell.
This was in the 1950's.
She was 6 years old at the time and her sister 8. They ran into the house bawling.
Who says that to a child?

Oh this was absolutely some basket case of a country.

A raving lunatic most likely.

According to Galway CoCo no human remains were found during construction works on the site in the 1970s.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0308/857975-mother-baby-tuam/

The problem is that builders frequently don't report bone finds for fear of losing valuable work days either to forensic investigations or archaeological assessment by the Museum.

Deleted User wrote: »

Plenty of us speak out. That doesn't mean we have to join the whole "the entire Catholic Church is evil" mantra that some posters push, especially when you consider that the members are the Church. All of them, not just the hierarchy, are the Church.

I don't know a single Catholic who thinks what happened is acceptable. If you think the hierarchy aren't aware of that, I disagree.

Beyond that - what do you expect us to do?
Apologise for wrongs that we didn't commit?

We can't turn back time. We can neither defend, nor consider acceptable, the horrors that happened in our society, and in our Church.

But we can't change the past. The most we can do is say "Not in my name, not in the name of my faith!"
We're doing that.

Plenty speak out? Who in the RCC has accepted a criminal investigation needs take place.. Who in the CC authority has come out and called this a crime? Who has spoken about the failure to act on the Murphy and Ryan reports findings? Who has spoken out about the evil that has systematically blocked the payments to victims and their families? We can't turn back time? Seriously? This is a crime which needs a full investigation, we all need to know the who, the what, the where and the how.. and people, human beings, who are hiding behind the RCC need to be rooted out and held accountable.

The crying about everyone calling the whole RCC evil is a subjective response and wearing thin. Look at the facts: this is a crime and the individuals who are responsible need to be held accountable. The RCC is being evasive and not calling for, assisting or being supportive of a full criminal investigation.