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"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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Comments

  • #1082
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I think that would be an incredible injustice, and not because they might be sick old or frail.
    The double standard and hypocrisy would be outlandish.


  • #1083
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    kylith wrote: »
    You're wrong

    http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/005021.html




    Just because there was no need doesn't mean that they didn't go. There was no need for girls to be sent there in the 60s either. While not as bad, it was still a scandal to be pregnant out of wedlock in the mid-90s.

    Yeah. It was posted earlier. We saw it. Give Pilly a break. From the 80s onwards all our experiences were different in a changing Ireland.


  • #1084
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    kylith wrote: »
    You're wrong...Just because there was no need doesn't mean that they didn't go. There was no need for girls to be sent there in the 60s either. While not as bad, it was still a scandal to be pregnant out of wedlock in the mid-90s.

    The Snapper was 1993. Puts it into a different cultural perspective doesn't it.


  • #1085
    cactusgal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 830 ✭✭✭cactusgal


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    we would likely have done the same had we been in their shoes.

    Please don't. At least, drop the "we."

    I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, REALLY wouldn't have treated innocent women and children that way, no matter what generation I'd been born in. And I'd imagine most people would say the same for themselves.

    Seriously, cop on.


  • #1086
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,048 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #1087
    I said
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭I said


    Typical Ireland give our problems to somebody else to mind and then it's not our fault when the ****e hits the fan.
    I'm no fan of church or state but unless Irish people gave them up then it's their problem are people that stupid to not know what was going on in those places and to fcuking uncaring or hiding their own little secrets to give two fcuks.
    So take responsibility for it plenty of people seem complicit to what went on.


  • #1088
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,048 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1089
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    bubblypop wrote:
    Why does the fact that my friend was in a mother and baby home rile you up?


    That doesn't rile me in the slightest because it's not true.

    What was riling me was in 3 different posts now you've inferred that single mothers did this to get a council house.

    Some of us came on here for intelligent discussion.

    Anyway, I've just remembered that you were banned from another thread for similar crap so I'll just stick you on my ignore list and let you off to get your cheap thrills out of annoying other people.


  • #1090
    Mr.Wemmick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    How do you feel about the states involvement? And just in case I get accused of a pro Catholic Church stance, they are responsible too. We must keep exploring the role of the state in matters like this. Its seems that a certain generation in Ireland blames the Catholic church for everything. While it may have influenced peoples beliefs, it didn't stop free thinkers breaking through. I'm concerned that there weren't many free thinkers beaking through in political circles.

    You let the chips fall where they may. In the first instance, the Nuns/religious orders are responsible. They are the ones who had the responsibility and a duty of care to those children. Criminal action against them for the dead children and if they squeal on the larger RCC community/ hierarchy, all the better. Then we wait for the big boys of the RCC to squeal on the state, corrupt politicians etc.. we can all then sit back and watch the sorry ugly mess unfold while all the rats crawl out into the light.

    Next step: to establish future clarity and transparency, reform the laws.

    “Female is real, and it's sex, and femininity is unreal, and it's gender.

    For that to become the given identity of women is a profoundly disabling notion."

    — Germaine Greer



  • #1091
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    cactusgal wrote: »
    Please don't. At least, drop the "we."

    I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, REALLY wouldn't have treated innocent women and children that way, no matter what generation I'd been born in. And I'd imagine most people would say the same for themselves.

    Seriously, cop on.

    Clearly many of the 'most people' saying the same for themselves are deluding themselves though. Such activity was carried out by many well intentioned people - not mindless murderers - who believed they were doing a right and good thing.
    Agreed that the vaste majority, or all people, now would not treat people like that today, but it must be accepted that in another context many would.


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  • #1092
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Considering the subject we are discussing, I don't see the need to prolong such a tedious issue. Pilly got the evidence that these homes existed and it surprised me too, by the way. Personally, I'm researching it now, out of curiosity. Why? Because so many had a completely different experience in the 90s, including me.


  • #1093
    nhunter100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭nhunter100


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote:
    I think that would be an incredible injustice, and not because they might be sick old or frail. The double standard and hypocrisy would be outlandish.


    I realise it maybe seen as an over the top comparison but former Nazis are still being pursued. WW2 ended in 1945 in Europe. 72 years. The passage of time has not lessened their abhorrent treatment of their fellow human.


  • #1094
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Different time, different perspectives. It isnt really for us to judge from ours what was done in another.

    Irish laws in force in the 1920s and after required all deaths to be registered, prohibited illegal detention, prohibited assault and torture, prohibited the sale of children for adoption and prohibited adoption without genuine and informed consent.

    We're judging people by the standards prevailing in law at the time, not by our present standards.


  • #1095
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    Ireland is gone very back wards this is not a Modern Thinking Nation/ State our people are very old fashioned in their thinking and time maybe if we did rejoin England and let English run t our country that is what I think even my Grandmother said we where better off under the crown


  • #1096
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    Irish laws in force in the 1920s and after required all deaths to be registered, prohibited illegal detention, prohibited assault and torture, prohibited the sale of children for adoption and prohibited adoption without genuine and informed consent.

    We're judging people by the standards prevailing in law at the time, not by our present standards.

    But by the standards of the time, society chose not to prosecute, whatever the letter of the law.
    Today we would prosecute - hence the strong tone of many here. A retrospective moving of the goal posts is the hypocrisy and injustice to those of that era.


  • #1097
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,098 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    We can only judge it from our viewpoint, and while bearing in mind that we cannot see it from their. They were no better nor worse than us, rather acting within the context of their time and what was considered correct to do. So we can say that we, now, would not do the same thing, we cannot condemn others for doing it in a different time - we would likely have done the same had we been in their shoes.

    So any atrocity or wicked doing can be excused if its put into context and examined as part of the culture of the time. With this in mind we can't hold any individual responsible for their past actions in a vile regime because they are basically weak willed automatons, in capable of free thought or making a moral judgment on what they should or shouldn't do. Rubbish.


  • #1098
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Tramore Tilly wrote: »
    My friend was kicked out of her house in 1998 for similar reasons.

    Plenty of girls are still kicked out. Mostly because there's no room and/or she's a bit of a handful , mixing with a rough crowd etc. There's often a huge row about the boyfriend.
    A lot of parents are convinced that their pregnant daughter will be allocated housing and get benefits if she arrives at the CWO and says she's homeless and pregnant. It's ridiculous.
    Of course most girls are looked after at home even though parents might be "disappointed" the mothers in particular know that being a teenage mother is very difficult in lots of ways and that it doesn't get any easier.
    My own daughter knows personally of 2 girls whose parents insisted on abortion even though that's not what they wanted.
    In both cases it would have been fear of loss of social standing combined with a desire for the girl to fulfill their long held expectations regarding 3rd level etc.
    Maybe I'm wrong but I think when abortion is legal in Ireland it will very quickly become the no 1 answer to a problem pregnancy


  • #1099
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pilly wrote: »
    That doesn't rile me in the slightest because it's not true.

    What was riling me was in 3 different posts now you've inferred that single mothers did this to get a council house.

    Some of us came on here for intelligent discussion.

    Anyway, I've just remembered that you were banned from another thread for similar crap so I'll just stick you on my ignore list and let you off to get your cheap thrills out of annoying other people.

    Maybe you don't like to admit the part that society had in these homes. Maybe you prefer to think of them happening in deep dark unlightened Ireland.
    The thing is, these attitudes did exist. Until very recently.
    Yes the Catholic church committed these atrocities, but society in general, turned a blind eye. No one wanted to know what happened to these single women and there illegitimate children, so long as they were kept out of sight.
    In much the same way as abortion is treated in this country now, so long as it doesn't happen here, and those women go elsewhere with their 'problems' we don't see it

    I'm sorry if the truth about you, but you have called me a liar too many times on this thread.


  • #1100
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    nacho libre wrote: »
    So any atrocity or wicked doing can be excused if its put into context and examined as part of the culture of the time. With this in mind we can't hold any individual responsible for their past actions in a vile regime because they are basically weak willed automatons, in capable of free thought or making a moral judgment on what they should or shouldn't do.

    Pretty much. Even your use of the term vile regime is prejudicial.
    It isnt even a question of excusing it as such. No judgement one way or the other can be made on the issue. Moral judgements are framed by the culture of those making them, and exist only within that framework. Imposing our view from a different one is unjust to those of another.


  • #1101
    jimmy blevins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 475 ✭✭jimmy blevins


    Miriam live from the baby pit, ffs.


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  • #1102
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    bubblypop wrote: »
    ...but society in general, turned a blind eye. No one wanted to know what happened to these single women and there illegitimate children, so long as they were kept out of sight. ...

    From the little I've read it doesn't seem like they were out of sight. They were ignored perhaps, but not invisible.


  • #1103
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    nacho libre wrote: »
    So any atrocity or wicked doing can be excused if its put into context and examined as part of the culture of the time. With this in mind we can't hold any individual responsible for their past actions in a vile regime because they are basically weak willed automatons, in capable of free thought or making a moral judgment on what they should or shouldn't do. Rubbish.

    Not excused. Explained I think.
    By anyone's standards being a lone parent is a tough position to be in. My mother was a widow with 4 kids at 46 in 1980.
    Very very tough.
    And she had SW to fall back on. And the sympathy of everyone.
    Imagine being an unmarried mother of say, 4 in say,1950.
    No childcare, very little SW . There's no money in the country, no jobs, every one emigrating, no man wants to marry you because no man wants to rear other men's kids.
    On a practical level, being a lone parent was almost impossible, if you didn't have the support of your immediate family.
    What you have to accept is that these girls didn't have any support from their families.
    If it's proven to be the case that the nuns didn't adequately care for them and the babies in proportion to the amount of money the state paid, (and I hope that this is what's being investigated) then the state had better get its wallet out, because the state should have been on top of it.
    But can you answer me this? If they hadn't had the Convent to put them in, where else could they have gone?


  • #1104
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    In fairness that article says the eldest "resident" was 79. Hardly a young pregnant girl from the 90s. It was officially a "Magdelene laundry". I'd like proof that young girls were sent there in the 90s to have babies, suffer abuse akin to what went on in earlier years.
    The oldest resident was 79. Does it say how old the youngest was?
    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Different time, different perspectives. It isnt really for us to judge from ours what was done in another.
    Child neglect and human trafficking was just as wrong then as it is now.
    pilly wrote: »
    That doesn't rile me in the slightest because it's not true.
    Any evidence that it isn't true? When did the homes stop accepting new inmates?


  • #1105
    Mars Bar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 32,436 ✭✭✭✭Mars Bar


    Hearing Mrs. Corless talk about those kids at school is just awful. They probably sat in the same classrooms and in the same spots that I did and they were utterly miserable. :(


  • #1106
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    kylith wrote: »
    The oldest resident was 79. Does it say how old the youngest was?

    Child neglect and human trafficking was just as wrong then as it is now.

    Any evidence that it isn't true? When did the homes stop accepting new inmates?

    This is a very serious issue and you come across as a person thats just looking to nit pick on the internet to make yourself feel better.


  • #1107
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    I think reading this thread that it would be a very good idea if anyone who hasn't already, sit down with someone in their 80s and ask them about Ireland in the 40s and 50s. Ask them about Irish people. About farming families and business families and social politics.
    The amount of posters applying 21st century sensibilities to an era that may as well be 600 years ago as 60 is ridiculous.


  • #1108
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    This is a very serious issue and you come across as a person thats just looking to nit pick on the internet to make yourself feel better.

    Sorry if I'm coming across like that. I guess I'm just annoyed at Pilly being so vehement about it being a lie that girls were still being sent away without supplying any evidence to support their position.


  • #1109
    mickstupp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    I think that would be an incredible injustice, and not because they might be sick old or frail.

    An INjustice?

    So... what... justice is letting them away with their crimes?


  • #1110
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Pretty much. Even your use of the term vile regime is prejudicial.
    It isn't even a question of excusing it as such. No judgement one way or the other can be made on the issue. Moral judgements are framed by the culture of those making them, and exist only within that framework. Imposing our view from a different one is unjust to those of another.

    I think the neglect, goes beyond, simply hard times of another era. Its a death rate 4 times (AFAIK) the norm of the period. While we can say the wider community did know that the schools existed and they were extremely harsh. I don't think anyone even of that era would accepted that death rate.

    You could perhaps suggest the nuns and local were largely uneducated, but the officials who got these death certs and did inspections where not.


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  • #1111
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    infogiver wrote: »
    I think reading this thread that it would be a very good idea if anyone who hasn't already, sit down with someone in their 80s and ask them about Ireland in the 40s and 50s. Ask them about Irish people. About farming families and business families and social politics.
    The amount of posters applying 21st century sensibilities to an era that may as well be 600 years ago as 60 is ridiculous.

    Indeed. It would seem that as many today are as quick to pass judgement on others, as the very same people of 60 years ago that they are criticising.
    People like to indulge in a little cheap sense of superiority.


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