Does anyone know what the ethnic Traveller Status statement actually means?

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 08:40AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

i will treat anyone with respect unless they do something to me. i would have no problem with any family moving in beside me unless there is actual proof of that particular family being of concern. whether one is a traveler or not makes no difference to me, it's one's actions that will determin whether i have an issue with them.

enough for what? to prove you are wrong? great. glad we got that sorted[/quote

If they didn't live in the house but in two caravans in their driveway would that be a concern ?
Or if they were a Euro nomadic family whereby they left 6 months of the year and put metal grids on all the windows and doors akin to a prison ,would that be of concern ?
How about their right to have 6 dogs fully licences crapping on the footpath ?

No. it is none of your business. Although given your views, maybe they are right and wise to do that .. sensible precaution

04-03-2017 09:34AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I'm guessing from your previous post you a solicitor or lawyer or imvolved in that profession to some degree so I'm wondering when cases involving travellers come to court do they pay for legal representation or is it provided for them.

I've a feeling it's the latter.

Same as for anyone, they have to show their means. In fairness, most people who are on social welfare and in local authority housing will get legal aid, not just travellers. Once the authorities assess their means, it's gonna be hard for a Judge with much less access to information to arrive at a different conclusion.

DavidLyons_ · 04-03-2017 09:36AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

There ye go again... as a nearly 80 year old rural lady? I am not vulnerable and not in need of protection! REALLY!

Could use some fire wood cutting if you really want to help? No? OK. The next traveller along will do it for me

And again... not true . second bolded.

If you want to make an impression, choose some reality other than your blind unreasoning hatred?

Nah. I just don't believe you. Oh, and it isn't "blind unreasoning hatred". We could be here for some time if folk were to regale us with their bad experiences with these people and their "culture". Accusations of bigotry and now even racism will make matters worse. You, my dear, don't know what you're talking about.

04-03-2017 09:40AM

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

You, my dear, don't know what you're talking about.

That's the second time you've had a go at that poster about her experiences.

Again, she's in her 70s, look back over her history of posts. That doesn't mean you have to respect everything she says, or her opinions...but on the other hand she may be able to draw on more experiences than most.

DavidLyons_ · 04-03-2017 09:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

You, my dear, don't know what you're talking about.

That's the second time you've had a go at that poster about her experiences.

Again, she's in her 70s, look back over her history of posts. That doesn't mean you have to respect everything she says, or her opinions...but on the other hand she may be able to draw on more experiences than most.

So we should give people special leeway for being old now? You must really love elderly travellers!

04-03-2017 10:22AM

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

So we should give people special leeway for being old now?

No special leeway. In that I may disagree with on opinions formed by their experiences, but I wouldn't dismiss their experiences.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 04-03-2017 10:27AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's the second time you've had a go at that poster about her experiences.

Again, she's in her 70s, look back over her history of posts. That doesn't mean you have to respect everything she says, or her opinions...but on the other hand she may be able to draw on more experiences than most.

No, Conor. I'm just as old and don't want age used as an excuse not to challenge an opinion.
I have lived a rural life and have had nothing but grief from travellers and I DO know elderly rural vulnerable people who have been terrorised by them.

04-03-2017 11:00AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

No one wants halting sites in their area...can you think of reasons why? Answers on a postcard.

Discrimination.

suicide_circus · 04-03-2017 11:35AM

Do the cohort of people who refuse outright to recognise the glaringly obvious disproportionate levels of criminality present in the traveller community realise theyre doing more harm than good?

The travelling community are not black south africans during apartheid. They are not Jews during the holocaust. They are in fact singled out for special anti discrimination legislation and now are recognised as a separate ethnic group. The community as a whole is in receipt of substantial state support to which I think it is fair to say they are not net contributors.

Do travllers actually want integration? Has anyone ask them? If they do, no amount of legislation will achieve it. A concerted effort on the part of BOTH communities is needed.

Professor Moriarty · 04-03-2017 11:43AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Do the cohort of people who refuse outright to recognise the glaringly obvious disproportionate levels of criminality present in the traveller community realise theyre doing more harm than good?

The travelling community are not black south africans during apartheid. They are not Jews during the holocaust. They are in fact singled out for special anti discrimination legislation and now are recognised as a separate ethnic group. The community as a whole is in receipt of substantial state support to which I think it is fair to say they are not net contributors.

Do travllers actually want integration? Has anyone ask them? If they do, no amount of legislation will achieve it. A concerted effort on the part of BOTH communities is needed.

The criminality within the travellers' community will change for the better when decent travellers stop turning a blind eye to what is happening in their community. For historic and cultural reasons, there is an omerta within traveller society. For example, how many times has a traveller testified against another traveller in court?

Help!!!! · 04-03-2017 01:09PM

ScumLord wrote: »

The simple answer is arrest them. Of course there would need to be a strong garda presence, the fear would be they'll attack the guards. But the people doing those "races" know full well the guards are afraid of them. So they do what they like. If the law was enforced and they knew the law would be enforced they'd have no choice but to follow the law.

But how many guards does there need to be on call on a Sunday morning to arrest them. I guess the guards would have to arrest everyone involved as they are all breaking the law. The vans are holding up people just trying to get on with their day. Or do we need a specialised Gardai force that just deals with Travellers?? but I guess that would be against their rights too

Help!!!! · 04-03-2017 01:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

not rightly so when people who aren't guilty of anything are getting abuse because "traveler"

I'm afraid thats not true, people know the ones who cause the trouble. The ones who dont cause problems act totally different to the ones who do

Help!!!! · 04-03-2017 01:15PM

end of the road wrote: »

Means Of Escape wrote: »

that is what the gards are there for, to deal with any breaches of the law. if i believe someone is breaching the law, the issue will be raised by me with the authorities, and i will keep raising it until it is dealt with.

It wont get dealt with, the guards will maybe go round speak to your neighbours & give them a warning, when they are gone you will be called a racist everytime you leave your house. Then noise & anything else you thought was bad before will get worse. Until you have a breakdown or have to sell up & leave

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 01:18PM

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

Nah. I just don't believe you. Oh, and it isn't "blind unreasoning hatred". We could be here for some time if folk were to regale us with their bad experiences with these people and their "culture". Accusations of bigotry and now even racism will make matters worse. You, my dear, don't know what you're talking about.

Please do not patronise me. Thank you.

Yes bigotry and racism from you. How else would you define it. To you traveller = bad automatically. Pavloff dog reaction

As anything we say positive is like acid to you?

You know, many folk react as they are treated. If you treat folk the way you are talking to me, for simply disagreeing with you?

My experiences may be better as I do not approach folk with prejudice and anger. So I do not get the aggression that you do?

Trying to excuse you here .. hard work....

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 01:21PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

It wont get dealt with, the guards will maybe go round speak to your neighbours & give them a warning, when they are gone you will be called a racist everytime you leave your house. Then noise & anything else you thought was bad before will get worse. Until you have a breakdown or have to sell up & leave

I am sincerely very sorry if you have bad neighbours. That is hard. Been there too many times. But never travellers. Which is what is relevant here surely?

If it is that bad them yes, move. Been there done that.

Help!!!! · 04-03-2017 01:30PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Help!!!! wrote: »

I am sincerely very sorry if you have bad neighbours. That is hard. Been there too many times. But never travellers. Which is what is relevant here surely?

If it is that bad them yes, move. Been there done that.

Was talking about travellers being the neighbours

Yamanoto · 04-03-2017 02:06PM

Sort out your quotes ffs folks.

04-03-2017 03:09PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Do the cohort of people who refuse outright to recognise the glaringly obvious disproportionate levels of criminality present in the traveller community realise theyre doing more harm than good?.

Oh the stats show they are disproportionately high.

But what they don't show are the reasons. Now, we either accept that they are just bad people, or we look at what might have led to this. We have report after report out there condemning our treatment of them for decades. We see posts here that refer to exterminating them, putting them in camps or on islands. We see other people who have suffered discrimination and how that manifests itself in crime, suicide rates, infant mortality, mental health issues etc.

eviltwin · 04-03-2017 03:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh the stats show they are disproportionately high.

But what they don't show are the reasons. Now, we either accept that they are just bad people, or we look at what might have led to this. We have report after report out there condemning our treatment of them for decades. We see posts here that refer to exterminating them, putting them in camps or on islands. We see other people who have suffered discrimination and how that manifests itself in crime, suicide rates, infant mortality, mental health issues etc.

To be fair it is not just us. We can make it as level a playing field as possible for them but that won't change much until they get their own house in order. The biggest barriers to travellers being fully integrated are issues of their own choosing: early marriage, lack of education, inadequate housing, domestic violence, role of women.....

Galwayguy35 · 04-03-2017 03:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh the stats show they are disproportionately high.

But what they don't show are the reasons. Now, we either accept that they are just bad people, or we look at what might have led to this. We have report after report out there condemning our treatment of them for decades. We see posts here that refer to exterminating them, putting them in camps or on islands. We see other people who have suffered discrimination and how that manifests itself in crime, suicide rates, infant mortality, mental health issues etc.

Maybe some of them prefer to make easy money, although it's often used as a joke there is actually good money to be made in selling copper and scrap and if it's stolen it's all profit.

I've work with them in previous jobs, 6 from the one family and to be fair they were good workers but after a few months they all left and went back on welfare.

Until the attitude among them changes about working and contributing to the country they live in like the rest of us things will remain the same.

04-03-2017 03:45PM

eviltwin wrote: »

To be fair it is not just us. We can make it as level a playing field as possible for them but that won't change much until they get their own house in order. The biggest barriers to travellers being fully integrated are issues of their own choosing: early marriage, lack of education, inadequate housing, domestic violence, role of women.....

But again some of those may be very tied in with their treatment over the years. If we accept they were treated terribly in the past, take that report by the EU in the 90s that labelled them the most discriminated against people in Europe, then why would they send their kids to be taught by our teachers in our schools teaching them our lifestyle and our morality, mixing with our kids. Which is not to say that's a valid reason to reject the education system. But can see why they don't like anything that may involve perceived integration and assimilation into a system that has discriminated against them and ostracised them.

end of the road · 04-03-2017 04:36PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Why should we provide travellers who are rich with anything?

because we have a legal obligation to do so, and we are in breach.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Why can't the ones who can afford it pay for their own houses like everyone else?

because when travelers do so you and others are whining and complaining and they have probably decided it's not worth the bother.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Also how come Revenue never turn their attention to travellers and find out exactly who has money?

And the money is there, new cars and vans aren't cheap to buy.

how do you know revenue don't go after them. just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Maybe some of them prefer to make easy money, although it's often used as a joke there is actually good money to be made in selling copper and scrap and if it's stolen it's all profit.

I've work with them in previous jobs, 6 from the one family and to be fair they were good workers but after a few months they all left and went back on welfare.

Until the attitude among them changes about working and contributing to the country they live in like the rest of us things will remain the same.

excuses excuses. things will remain the same because you can get away with it. all the rest of your "reasons" are excuses to do it. you actually don't care about the issues i reccan.

end of the road · 04-03-2017 04:37PM

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

Nah. I just don't believe you. Oh, and it isn't "blind unreasoning hatred". We could be here for some time if folk were to regale us with their bad experiences with these people and their "culture". Accusations of bigotry and now even racism will make matters worse. You, my dear, don't know what you're talking about.

oh she really does. you don't. you lost the argument.

Help!!!! wrote: »

I'm afraid thats not true, people know the ones who cause the trouble. The ones who dont cause problems act totally different to the ones who do

i'm afraid it is true, it's not just the people who cause the trouble who get discriminated against.

Galwayguy35 · 04-03-2017 04:43PM

Yeah yeah whatever EOTR, making no sense as usual.

I'm still waiting for you to back up those serious claims you made about me yesterday.

JamboMac · 04-03-2017 04:45PM

end of the road wrote: »

oh she really does. you don't. you lost the argument.

i'm afraid it is true, it's not just the people who cause the trouble who get discriminated against.

Your assuming this, just like you say we can't assume the revenue don't go after traveller's who dodge tax, you can't realistically assume that all traveller's are discriminated against. Are their nice traveller's i'm sure their are but have i met them, not yet.

I prejudge nobody and base my opinions on experiences and the generations of traveller's that may have been treated badly isn't the generation that's causing the problems.

eviltwin · 04-03-2017 04:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

But again some of those may be very tied in with their treatment over the years. If we accept they were treated terribly in the past, take that report by the EU in the 90s that labelled them the most discriminated against people in Europe, then why would they send their kids to be taught by our teachers in our schools teaching them our lifestyle and our morality, mixing with our kids. Which is not to say that's a valid reason to reject the education system. But can see why they don't like anything that may involve perceived integration and assimilation into a system that has discriminated against them and ostracised them.

What can be done to address that? We can only meet people halfway if they are willing to meet us there.

ScumLord · 04-03-2017 05:05PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

& so they get abuse from settled people because of this & rightly so. If people stopped crying racist or anything else every time people speak out about them then the Gardai might start arresting them.

I'd agree, but as long as the guard follows procedure they should be in the clear, if there's racism it's up to the people in charge of garda procedure to fix it.

Means Of Escape wrote: »

So you would happily embrace a traveller family ,recommended by Pavee point ,if they moved into the house beside you without batting an eyelid oe having any concerns ?

I actually have friends who live next door to one of the infamous traveller families. They're loud, there's always guards calling round, yourmans a raging alcoholic. But if you're willing to put up with all the noise it's the safest place in the world to live. No criminal in the city would dare rob a house on that street and the family in question try to keep any kind of criminal activity away from their own house. So there are benefits.

Help!!!! wrote: »

But how many guards does there need to be on call on a Sunday morning to arrest them. I guess the guards would have to arrest everyone involved as they are all breaking the law. The vans are holding up people just trying to get on with their day. Or do we need a specialised Gardai force that just deals with Travellers?? but I guess that would be against their rights too

No they can just launch an operation like they do taking down drug gangs. They can probably find out easily enough when the next one is taking place. Formulate a plan, get good garda numbers and go out and do arrest all of them, impound everything from horses to vans.. Do that two or three times and it would put an end to it.

Help!!!! · 04-03-2017 05:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

But again some of those may be very tied in with their treatment over the years. If we accept they were treated terribly in the past, take that report by the EU in the 90s that labelled them the most discriminated against people in Europe, then why would they send their kids to be taught by our teachers in our schools teaching them our lifestyle and our morality, mixing with our kids. Which is not to say that's a valid reason to reject the education system. But can see why they don't like anything that may involve perceived integration and assimilation into a system that has discriminated against them and ostracised them.

They have to put some effort in as well. I know a traveller family, the father moved them away from the halting site. He works hard, sends all the kids to school, comes & picks them up at the after school. He is getting on with life, not playing the victim. If the rest did the same no one would say anything about them. Theres only so much people are prepared to put up with & many people in Ireland have had more bad experiences with Travellers than good ones.

Help!!!! · 04-03-2017 05:14PM

ScumLord wrote: »

No they can just launch an operation like they do taking down drug gangs. They can probably find out easily enough when the next one is taking place. Formulate a plan, get good garda numbers and go out and do arrest all of them, impound everything from horses to vans.. Do that two or three times and it would put an end to it.

Unfortunately like the bare knuckle fighting theres a few locations picked & members are only told on the day where & when it takes place.

end of the road · 04-03-2017 05:32PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Unfortunately like the bare knuckle fighting theres a few locations picked & members are only told on the day where & when it takes place.

and yet the gards are still able to turn up in some cases. so not only is being told the location on the day not an excuse for action, but the gards can deal with the issue even with the littlest of time.

Does anyone know what the ethnic Traveller Status statement actually means?

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