Boundary Extension for City?

Deiseen · 13-02-2017 11:57AM

azimuth17 wrote: »

The posts from Road_High suggest that people "up north" near the Kilkenny county town don't think about Waterford that much, although the number of submissions that originated in every form from that area would contradict that. It is also patently obvious that Kilkenny (the county town) does not have another local authority clamped right up against its front door. Brian Cody suggested that rivalry should be confined to the sports field and I agree , but flag waving populists like Phil Hogan are not afraid to use the GAA analogy when it suits them. Road-high proves the adage that when not argued into a point of view , its hard to be argued out of it. No matter what anyone says or shows or thinks or proves the rebuttal is always the same ,usually coupled with disparaging remark(s) about Waterford city on any topic you care to choose. The historic boundaries (map) were there for centuries and the independent commission proposed a return to essentially those boundaries. Regardless of how the city might develop on that side of the river in the future, and it is inevitable courtesy of the massive investment in servicing land via the Waterford Waste Water Treatment facility in Gorteens, I don't see another boundary extension being feasible. AND remember, the Port of Waterford and its annual millions in rates (unspent in south Kilkenny) has been gifted to Co Kilkenny.

Why was the port moved to Kilkenny without a fight before does anyone know? But also, if it was on the other side of the river then wasn't it always in Kilkenny?

Deiseen · 13-02-2017 11:59AM

road_high wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

It certainly matters when hurling minnows like Waterford, who are also trying to take your land, come up to your turf and beat you.

They'll say they don't care about the league but will cry themselves to sleep tonight.

Remind me again, which of Kilkenny's 36 All Ireland's were won in early February?
Seen as you brought it up

Definitely not last year's one anyway....

Harry Palmr · 13-02-2017 12:02PM

road_high wrote: »

Because Kilkenny was never spoon food or molly coddled with IDA jobs like Waterford has been. And there's not a large working class population for factory type work.

Spoon fed? really? the IDA closed the business end of the Waterford/South East office about 30 years ago. Now it's a fax machine operation as far as I know. The states interest in the (declining) industrial base of Waterford is little more than zero.

Deiseen · 13-02-2017 12:18PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

road_high wrote: »

Because Kilkenny was never spoon food or molly coddled with IDA jobs like Waterford has been. And there's not a large working class population for factory type work.

Spoon fed? really? the IDA closed the business end of the Waterford/South East office about 30 years ago. Now it's a fax machine operation as far as I know. The states interest in the (declining) industrial base of Waterford is little more than zero.

He's right to be agrieved about the lack of IDA jobs in Kilkenny but should not direct this anger towards Waterford. I've pointed out previously that even Carlow has more IDA jobs than KK but still hasn't got a great deal either nor has Waterford for its size. So this is a south eastern issue.

Once again it comes down to a few factors and one of them is the University. Our third level participation is lower than other regions and of the people that do go to third level, they go to other regions to study and don't come back. Hardly an ideal region for a company to set up in is it, knowing they won't be able to find enough qualified staff the fill the vacancies.

That's why we don't get the Dells, the Intels, the HPs etc.

azimuth17 · 13-02-2017 12:56PM

The anti-Waterford tone of the road-high post about lack of IDA jobs is quite unfair. This is a national issue and was really made worse in 1995/6 when the IDA regional manager for the south east was removed from Waterford. This hurt us all. The south eats with approx 11% of the national population has nothing like 11% of the national IDA jobs. Kilkenny was spoon-fed with one huge IDA investment called Fieldcrest on the Dublin Road, which failed spectacularly. The IDA position generally is that it is access to jobs that matters and anyone who sees the thousands of KK and WX cars around IDA sites in Waterford will understand that.
As an aside, I would like to ask Road-High if he supports 24/7 cardiology at UHW for the 500,000 people in the south east?

azimuth17 · 13-02-2017 01:03PM

@Deiseen. The Port of Waterford is the entire harbour from Hook Head to Great Island to Carrick on Suir and encompasses the shores of Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford and a bit of south Tipp. Port was constrained for expansion in the city, which all relates to the same issue we are discussing.

Deiseen · 13-02-2017 01:13PM

azimuth17 wrote: »

@Deiseen. The Port of Waterford is the entire harbour from Hook Head to Great Island to Carrick on Suir and encompasses the shores of Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford and a bit of south Tipp. Port was constrained for expansion in the city, which all relates to the same issue we are discussing.

I understand that but surely something could have be done rather than gift it to another county?

azimuth17 · 13-02-2017 01:35PM

Deiseen wrote: »

I understand that but surely something could have be done rather than gift it to another county?

The port always saw itself as operating facilities in the whole harbour, like the jetty at the Paper Mills in Grannagh, the Oil Depot at Fiddown, the power station at Great island as well as traditional facilities in the city. They have an overview of the river as an economic generator. The silliness of planning for the Belview area being done from Kilkenny is beyond comment. Its an Irish joke.

Squidvicious · 13-02-2017 04:18PM

azimuth17 wrote: »

The port always saw itself as operating facilities in the whole harbour, like the jetty at the Paper Mills in Grannagh, the Oil Depot at Fiddown, the power station at Great island as well as traditional facilities in the city. They have an overview of the river as an economic generator. The silliness of planning for the Belview area being done from Kilkenny is beyond comment. Its an Irish joke.

I assume that the port is in Belview for sound geographical reasons. I would assume that there were simply no suitable sites on the south side of the river. In addition, having a port on the North side makes it a bit more accessible to most of the rest of the country.

I'm curious about the bolded bit? Has KKCC done anything wrong as regards the port? Genuine question.

azimuth17 · 13-02-2017 04:40PM

@Squidvicious. Its silly in the same manner as having to make two planning applications for the Ardree hotel because the city boundary runs through it. Its silly like having the Abbey Community college administered from Kilkenny as the boundary runs through its grounds. KK Co Co were originally not enamoured of the port move simply because it created a demand for investment that they would not make. They were very very slow with fresh water there for example. The land is servic
ed for industry now (eg Glanbia) courtesy of Waterford City Waste Water plant at Gorteens. KK CC would never have made that investment in my view. Investment received while Martin Cullen was a minister solved most of the problems. In general, if the IDA bring someone to Waterford fora pharma industry they might look at Knockhouse or Belview. It seems silly to me that the IDA and Waterford reps would then have to say...Oh wait, planning for that is done elsewhere, in a town with a different agenda. Anyway its moot. The worst part of this commission's recommendation is that they left the port in co Kilkenny with at least €2 million per annum rates, very little of which will ever be spent in south Kilkenny. It was an absolute cop out in terms of economic cohesion.

Irishlad2014 · 13-02-2017 04:44PM

blackcard wrote: »

beazee wrote: »

Mid 19th century map.
All the Kilculliheen is marked as Waterford.

Here's the Boundary Commission proposal:

What struck me the most was submissions count:
250 - from Kilculliheen, Co. Kilkenny (the very area in question)
299 - from Waterford
16,239 Kilkenny City+Kilkenny Rural (8 formats of the same letter, all delivered in hardcopies, all had to be scanned)

In case you haven't read the report: here's linky

And only 29 submissions in favour of the proposed change

And 18,838 against were a photocopy...

Harry Palmr · 13-02-2017 04:49PM

Squidvicious wrote: »

I assume that the port is in Belview for sound geographical reasons. I would assume that there were simply no suitable sites on the south side of the river. In addition, having a port on the North side makes it a bit more accessible to most of the rest of the country.

All true, there is nowhere at all south of the Suir or west of the Waterford Estuary as it's all high ground bar a couple of small stretches - the only bit long enough would be Woodstown which apart from being completely unsuited on land is famously shallow. Belview is the only viable spot for it.

Squidvicious · 13-02-2017 04:54PM

azimuth17 wrote: »

@Squidvicious. Its silly in the same manner as having to make two planning applications for the Ardree hotel because the city boundary runs through it. Its silly like having the Abbey Community college administered from Kilkenny as the boundary runs through its grounds. KK Co Co were originally not enamoured of the port move simply because it created a demand for investment that they would not make. They were very very slow with fresh water there for example. The land is servic
ed for industry now (eg Glanbia) courtesy of Waterford City Waste Water plant at Gorteens. KK CC would never have made that investment in my view. Investment received while Martin Cullen was a minister solved most of the problems. In general, if the IDA bring someone to Waterford fora pharma industry they might look at Knockhouse or Belview. It seems silly to me that the IDA and Waterford reps would then have to say...Oh wait, planning for that is done elsewhere, in a town with a different agenda. Anyway its moot. The worst part of this commission's recommendation is that they left the port in co Kilkenny with at least €2 million per annum rates, very little of which will ever be spent in south Kilkenny. It was an absolute cop out in terms of economic cohesion.

I would be surprised if Kilkenny actively sabotaged development of Belview, even if their only motivation was increased rates. In general, I'd say they're happy enough to facilitate development at Belview.

As for the second bit, I have heard that Waterford Council is not at all happy with the recommendation on the basis that the area to be transferred to them will be of little value to them.

Johnboy1951 · 13-02-2017 04:57PM

I have no recollection why the terminal was moved in the first place. Lack of space to expand?

Max Powers · 13-02-2017 04:59PM

Squidvicious wrote: »

I would be surprised if Kilkenny actively sabotaged development of Belview, even if their only motivation was increased rates. In general, I'd say they're happy enough to facilitate development at Belview.

As for the second bit, I have heard that Waterford Council is not at all happy with the recommendation on the basis that the area to be transferred to them will be of little value to them.

As for that second bit,...you heard about council....no offence squid, not an attack on you but its probably B.S. then.

Harry Palmr · 13-02-2017 05:06PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I have no recollection why the terminal was moved in the first place. Lack of space to expand?

Too narrow for large LO-LO gantry's and shallow tidal draft depth I think.

azimuth17 · 13-02-2017 05:40PM

they were disinterested when it was seen as a portal move only, but once Louisiana Pacific strandboard mill arrived, then so did the cash in rates. The move was originally driven by Bell Lines who wanted to use the rail connection. KKCC were happy enough with this, but when Bell Lines went bang after the gantry disaster, the demand for road connection grew and demand for water etc. They took along time to warm to the development and have resisted the use of the name Port of Waterford, Belview Terminal, for a long time. Anyone trying to maximise the economic impact of the port and its adjacent land would have placed it back where it belongs, but this is the recommendation of an Independent Boundary Commission. People in Kilkenny would not know bow from stern and that is not meant to be offensive.

Squidvicious · 13-02-2017 06:01PM

Max Powers wrote: »

As for that second bit,...you heard about council....no offence squid, not an attack on you but its probably B.S. then.

Yeah, fair enough,I have to accept that "heard" is extremely vague. It's rumour, nothing more and as with any rumour may be completely untrue. That said, it wouldn't be a huge leap of logic to say that there is disappointment in Waterford Council that the port wasn't included.

robtri · 13-02-2017 07:30PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Too narrow for large LO-LO gantry's and shallow tidal draft depth I think.

so I believe and that waterford city wanted it out as it wanted to develop the quays and not have a working port right in the city centre

Deiseen · 13-02-2017 07:43PM

robtri wrote: »

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Too narrow for large LO-LO gantry's and shallow tidal draft depth I think.

so I believe and that waterford city wanted it out as it wanted to develop the quays and not have a working port right in the city centre

I can imagine the meeting now, "Let's get rid of the port and get in.... CAR PARKS". This was subsequently passed unanimously by WCC.

Harry Palmr · 13-02-2017 07:51PM

ha! Well that was the south quays masterplan! The North Quays we all know and know we will probably never see as envisaged

http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/project/2008/10004/m3-architects/city-quay-in-waterford.html

Imagine this

http://www.archidea-spp.pl/up_waterford.php?lang=en

01_waterford.1.jpg

road_high · 13-02-2017 09:33PM

azimuth17 wrote: »

The posts from Road_High suggest that people "up north" near the Kilkenny county town don't think about Waterford that much, although the number of submissions that originated in every form from that area would contradict that. It is also patently obvious that Kilkenny (the county town) does not have another local authority clamped right up against its front door. Brian Cody suggested that rivalry should be confined to the sports field and I agree , but flag waving populists like Phil Hogan are not afraid to use the GAA analogy when it suits them. Road-high proves the adage that when not argued into a point of view , its hard to be argued out of it. No matter what anyone says or shows or thinks or proves the rebuttal is always the same ,usually coupled with disparaging remark(s) about Waterford city on any topic you care to choose. The historic boundaries (map) were there for centuries and the independent commission proposed a return to essentially those boundaries. Regardless of how the city might develop on that side of the river in the future, and it is inevitable courtesy of the massive investment in servicing land via the Waterford Waste Water Treatment facility in Gorteens, I don't see another boundary extension being feasible. AND remember, the Port of Waterford and its annual millions in rates (unspent in south Kilkenny) has been gifted to Co Kilkenny.

Yawn zzzz...it's ground hog day around here. Same old crap rehashed day in day out- honestly no one in Kilkenny carlow or Wexford is interested anymore.
The country is very small, we don't "have to" work with an obstinate Waterford if we don't want to. It's honestly not worth the hassle. There are other regional options and configurations.
Have to laugh at your "gifting"- it's a commercial enterprise that freely choose a co Kilkenny site as the best place to be- it wasn't some kind of gift from the unions.

road_high · 13-02-2017 09:37PM

azimuth17 wrote: »

they were disinterested when it was seen as a portal move only, but once Louisiana Pacific strandboard mill arrived, then so did the cash in rates. The move was originally driven by Bell Lines who wanted to use the rail connection. KKCC were happy enough with this, but when Bell Lines went bang after the gantry disaster, the demand for road connection grew and demand for water etc. They took along time to warm to the development and have resisted the use of the name Port of Waterford, Belview Terminal, for a long time. Anyone trying to maximise the economic impact of the port and its adjacent land would have placed it back where it belongs, but this is the recommendation of an Independent Boundary Commission. People in Kilkenny would not know bow from stern and that is not meant to be offensive.

We have a lovely big port though. I can tell it clearly eats you up inside. You spout non stop about parochialism and all your posts then extol that very virtue. Do you actually see no irony in the stuff you obsess over?

road_high · 13-02-2017 09:39PM

Squidvicious wrote: »

I would be surprised if Kilkenny actively sabotaged development of Belview, even if their only motivation was increased rates. In general, I'd say they're happy enough to facilitate development at Belview.

As for the second bit, I have heard that Waterford Council is not at all happy with the recommendation on the basis that the area to be transferred to them will be of little value to them.

Kilkenny council do huge work in promoting the port and the zone around it- they bent over backwards to encourage local company Glanbia to build their plant there for example.

azimuth17 · 13-02-2017 09:39PM

Unfortunately the sale of the north quays by the Port Authority was delayed by a whole raft of legal appeals which went as far as I recall to the Supreme Court. The money that would have been realised had the private buyer been able to purchase the site would have grown the port by an order of magnitude and provided roll on roll off capacity there and rendered it debt free. The appellants were a family firm of fishermen from Kilmore Quay, Co Wexford. An epic disaster for Waterford because of the legal delays. The buyer eventually was forced to withdraw. Same with south quays. They were owned and sold for car parking by the Port Authority and not the city council.

road_high · 13-02-2017 09:43PM

Deiseen wrote: »

He's right to be agrieved about the lack of IDA jobs in Kilkenny but should not direct this anger towards Waterford. I've pointed out previously that even Carlow has more IDA jobs than KK but still hasn't got a great deal either nor has Waterford for its size. So this is a south eastern issue.

Once again it comes down to a few factors and one of them is the University. Our third level participation is lower than other regions and of the people that do go to third level, they go to other regions to study and don't come back. Hardly an ideal region for a company to set up in is it, knowing they won't be able to find enough qualified staff the fill the vacancies.

That's why we don't get the Dells, the Intels, the HPs etc.

I'm not agrieved because Kilkenny is one of the places in the country generally doing alright for itself.
I certainly don't blame Waterford for anything and welcome any new jobs that come there. I never see jobs in Waterford as some kind of "we should have those" thing.
There's far worse regions in terms of industry and employment, the South Eastern counties are quite wealthy and have been historically.

Deiseen · 13-02-2017 10:17PM

road_high wrote: »

azimuth17 wrote: »

The posts from Road_High suggest that people "up north" near the Kilkenny county town don't think about Waterford that much, although the number of submissions that originated in every form from that area would contradict that. It is also patently obvious that Kilkenny (the county town) does not have another local authority clamped right up against its front door. Brian Cody suggested that rivalry should be confined to the sports field and I agree , but flag waving populists like Phil Hogan are not afraid to use the GAA analogy when it suits them. Road-high proves the adage that when not argued into a point of view , its hard to be argued out of it. No matter what anyone says or shows or thinks or proves the rebuttal is always the same ,usually coupled with disparaging remark(s) about Waterford city on any topic you care to choose. The historic boundaries (map) were there for centuries and the independent commission proposed a return to essentially those boundaries. Regardless of how the city might develop on that side of the river in the future, and it is inevitable courtesy of the massive investment in servicing land via the Waterford Waste Water Treatment facility in Gorteens, I don't see another boundary extension being feasible. AND remember, the Port of Waterford and its annual millions in rates (unspent in south Kilkenny) has been gifted to Co Kilkenny.

Yawn zzzz...it's ground hog day around here. Same old crap rehashed day in day out- honestly no one in Kilkenny carlow or Wexford is interested anymore.
The country is very small, we don't "have to" work with an obstinate Waterford if we don't want to. It's honestly not worth the hassle. There are other regional options and configurations.
Have to laugh at your "gifting"- it's a commercial enterprise that freely choose a co Kilkenny site as the best place to be- it wasn't some kind of gift from the unions.

Road high, to be fair you do come across better than Michael Kavangh and his insurmountable spelling mistakes BUT in the end, you cannot hide that you have the same bitterness deep down.

Nobody is making out that Waterford is New York city but it's not the wastleland that you and your county men make it out to be. As I said before, you scrape out the tourism (which we perform comparatively in) then name one sector that Kilkenny does better in than Waterford. Please do it.

azimuth17 · 13-02-2017 10:42PM

road_high wrote: »

Kilkenny council do huge work in promoting the port and the zone around it- they bent over backwards to encourage local company Glanbia to build their plant there for example.

Glanbia did not want to build the €40 million treatment plant that would have been necessary to build the new plant at Ballyragget where they already have treatment issues. They sought a site with three requirements. 1, Near a port, 2. Access to treatment facilities of suitable size(Waterford Waste Water plant which you do not even acknowledge. 3 Be in co Kilkenny. Only the Gorteens site was suitable. Bending over backwards does not quite describe that exercise.

And by the way, I have to say that your posts reek of a terrible bitterness.
You still have not told me whether you support the 24/7 interventional cardiology service at UHW for the 500,000 people of the south east?

Deiseen · 13-02-2017 10:56PM

azimuth17 wrote: »

road_high wrote: »

Kilkenny council do huge work in promoting the port and the zone around it- they bent over backwards to encourage local company Glanbia to build their plant there for example.

Glanbia did not want to build the €40 million treatment plant that would have been necessary to build the new plant at Ballyragget where they already have treatment issues. They sought a site with three requirements. 1, Near a port, 2. Access to treatment facilities of suitable size(Waterford Waste Water plant which you do not even acknowledge. 3 Be in co Kilkenny. Only the Gorteens site was suitable. Bending over backwards does not quite describe that exercise.

And by the way, I have to say that your posts reek of a terrible bitterness.
You still have not told me whether you support the 24/7 interventional cardiology service at UHW for the 500,000 people of the south east?

Sure, how can he recognise the need for this when the city does not even exist in his world? He'd much rather get stuck in a traffic jam in Dublin on his way to work/for a meal/for emergency heart surgery.

Cabaal · 14-02-2017 09:42AM

zulutango wrote: »

What do readers here think of an amalgamation of Kilkenny and Waterford Councils? I think it's the most sensible solution. Create one strong region rather than two weak ones. I'm not sure what the new, enlarged authority could be called. Hurling teams could continue to align themselves along the traditional english county boundaries if they so wished.

p.s. I am from neither Kilkenny nor Waterford, and don't have loyalty to one over another.

Much more chance of Carlow /Kilkenny merging then your idea I'm afraid.

Boundary Extension for City?

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