Boundary Extension for City?

Jamie2k9

gobo99 wrote: »

zulutango wrote: »

Breaking up communities? You'd swear they were planning to build a huge wall. This is about more sensible management of what is a single urban/economic entity. Nobody's land is being taken. No communities are being broken up.

Of course they're being broken up. Part of the parish in a different county, provence, constituency, diocese?

Religion has no place in moderon society and especially interference with Government planning.

PS - the pope is re writing it as he goes along these days...

azimuth17

It is obvious that lot of the KK posts here are from young people weaned on a "greater Kilkenny"type attitude, probably as a result of GAA success...which we all admire, but with no real understanding of the area or the issue.. The recommendation of the independent boundary commission are very tight. I don't agree that the port should be in co Kilkenny, but there it is! The point made about no bridge across the river until 1800 (1793 actually) makes me ask the question if people realise there were no cars at that time either? When the river , and the commerce of the river and the business of building an economy around the river for the benefit of all was the prime mover. The old map shows a boundary that existed for centuries!

zulutango

gobo99 wrote:

Of course they're being broken up. Part of the parish in a different county, provence, constituency, diocese?

What have parishes or dioceses got to do with anything? There's no reason for them to change. The GAA boundaries don't need to change either.

BBM77

azimuth17 wrote: »

It is obvious that lot of the KK posts here are from young people weaned on a "greater Kilkenny"type attitude, probably as a result of GAA success...which we all admire, but with no real understanding of the area or the issue.. The recommendation of the independent boundary commission are very tight. I don't agree that the port should be in co Kilkenny, but there it is! The point made about no bridge across the river until 1800 (1793 actually) makes me ask the question if people realise there were no cars at that time either? When the river , and the commerce of the river and the business of building an economy around the river for the benefit of all was the prime mover. The old map shows a boundary that existed for centuries!

There was also multiple ferries. So for someone to suggest the one side of the river was completely cut off from the other is just not true.

mooseknunkle

beazee wrote: »

Mid 19th century map.
All the Kilculliheen is marked as Waterford.

Looks like a map of Italy,always knew we were the Italians of Ireland

Johnboy1951

Thanks beazee this map shows clearly the extent of the recommendation compared to present and old boundary.




Not such a huge 'land grab' after all

Dunmoreroader

mooseknunkle wrote: »

Looks like a map of Italy,always knew we were the Italians of Ireland

I've just read the main points of the report and it is fascinating. However pg 37, article 4.5 states "....the boundary of Waterford City moved in 1840 from the river-centre to include lands north of the river." It goes on to detail how the boundary only ever moved out from the river from that time till now.

This is factually incorrect.

The map above was included in the 1840 Waterford City Boundary Commission which shrunk the city from its 'Ancient Limits' as outlined on this map, which extended "about a mile and a half on the North".
See for yourself (don't ask me why its on Limerick City's website); http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/068%20waterford.pdf

Before Queen Elizabeth I's Signals Corp drew up county boundaries in the 17th century there were just incorporated borough's (town's/city's) and their Liberties. This map shows ancient Waterford City and its Liberties as including most of the area currently under question. There was no Co. Waterford or Co. Kilkenny before then.
As for the location of the majority of objectors, pg19 of the report clearly shows the majority from in and around Kilkenny City which only confirms what I have always believed; that this whole bun-fight is really an inter-city rivalry rather than an inter-county one. Business/HSE/Academic interested parties from Kilkenny City will do all they can to keep Waterford down in the hope it will benefit their city. They don't give a **** about S.Kilkenny/Ferrybank/Belview Port other than as a handy revenue stream and pay lip service to Waterford City as the Gateway for the region.
Proud Kilkenny objectors from within the area concerned don't know which side their bread is buttered on and go along with the Kilkenny city agenda against their own interests. IMO:)

azimuth17

May I commend dunmoreroader for an excellent post.
It does not seem to be understood that the city might have a boundary which included undeveloped land as is the case with the 19th century map. This is the County of the City of Waterford. If there was no bridge until 1793 ,people might reflect that London, the biggest city in world or thereabouts at the time, as far as I know only had one bridge across the Thames at that time. The lack of a bridge in Waterford had much to do with the fact that the Suir was/is navigable to seagoing sailing ships up to Carrick. Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway all stand at places at the top of the tidal reach.
Being new to this forum, and having read all the posts and much else connected with t issue, I have to agree that inter-urban rivalry is at the root of it. The fear that Waterford, was/is/will be more important than the Kilkenny county town.

Deiseen

azimuth17 wrote: »

May I commend dunmoreroader for an excellent post.
It does not seem to be understood that the city might have a boundary which included undeveloped land as is the case with the 19th century map. This is the County of the City of Waterford. If there was no bridge until 1793 ,people might reflect that London, the biggest city in world or thereabouts at the time, as far as I know only had one bridge across the Thames at that time. The lack of a bridge in Waterford had much to do with the fact that the Suir was/is navigable to seagoing sailing ships up to Carrick. Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway all stand at places at the top of the tidal reach.
Being new to this forum, and having read all the posts and much else connected with t issue, I have to agree that inter-urban rivalry is at the root of it. The fear that Waterford, was/is/will be more important than the Kilkenny county town.

Look, let's face it. Kilkenny is a great little town and a gem to have with us in the south east. It might only get just about the same number of tourists as Waterford and a bit less of spend but it does it in style ( no sarcasm meant here). We have the third level collge, the hospital, the IDA jobs, and three times the population so there's always gonna be a bit of challenge but at the of the day, asside from tourism (which we get the same numbers and more money spent) we just blow them away in every department. Not even trying to be vindictive, just being truthful. Show me any area where it points that Kilkenny does better than Waterford. This excludes any sh*te out of Michael kavanghs mouth. It was funny at first but I actually can't handle anymore of his illegible bull****.

Use it or lose it.


gg kk

MRnotlob606

Paudie Coffee and Mary Butler get into a debate over the boundary extension.

http://www.wlrfm.com/shows/4-deise-today/4566-td-mary-butler-and-senator-paudie-coffey-debate-boundary-change-on-deise-today.html

Bobby Alyward has his say on the boundary extension also.

https://soundcloud.com/wlrfmwaterford/bobby-aylward-talks-about-the-proposed-kilkenny-waterford-border-change

Deiseen

There'll be some sour heads in Kilkenny tonight, after the boundary extension and getting beaten in the hurling. All in the same week!

marlin vs

Deiseen wrote: »

There'll be some sour heads in Kilkenny tonight, after the boundary extension and getting beaten in the hurling. All in the same week!

Ye boy the'll all wan't ta be from the Déise now, lot's of cat's won't turn up for work amarach, the Waterford bridge will be quiet tomorrow.:D

Harry Palmr

tbf Kilkenny don't give a hoot about the league - only the Championship matters.

Rustyman101

Gonna be an interesting one ! Commission says no need for 2nd cath lab ! Politicians say "we must follow report findings" result no 2nd cath lab , hands tied have to follow report no deviation allowed ..... now all be it a different subject and different report , one wonders what will the results be this time ? Don't see it getting across the line myself wayeee to much parish pump politics going on , and even local FF saying they wont support ! But just curious as to the excuse why it wont be implemented , it'll be feic all to do with the SE that's for sure ! Ah well interesting times ahead !

Deiseen

It certainly matters when hurling minnows like Waterford, who are also trying to take your land, come up to your turf and beat you.

They'll say they don't care about the league but will cry themselves to sleep tonight.

zulutango

FF in Waterford will argue against the extension saying increased co-operation between Waterford and Kilkenny councils is what's needed. It's a shameful, weaselly fudge of course but it'll keep KK supporters happy and Waterford supporters will accept it.

blackcard

beazee wrote: »

Mid 19th century map.
All the Kilculliheen is marked as Waterford.

Here's the Boundary Commission proposal:


What struck me the most was submissions count:
250 - from Kilculliheen, Co. Kilkenny (the very area in question)
299 - from Waterford
16,239 Kilkenny City+Kilkenny Rural (8 formats of the same letter, all delivered in hardcopies, all had to be scanned)


In case you haven't read the report: here's linky

And only 29 submissions in favour of the proposed change

Cabaal

Deiseen wrote: »

They'll say they don't care about the league but will cry themselves to sleep tonight.

Who's they'll?
Everyone in kilkenny?

Dunmoreroader

Cabaal wrote: »

Who's they'll?
Everyone in kilkenny?

FFS stop going on about hurling, this is not about hurling, anyone bringing hurling into this is a cretin without the wit to argue the topic on its merits.
Listened to the radio interviews involving Butler/Coffey and Bobby Alyward and all I can say is; Jesus wept is this what passes for political debate in the Southeast? The questions put to Alyward were infantile and the answers worse. And the Portlaw pair weren't much better.

Deiseen

Cabaal wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

They'll say they don't care about the league but will cry themselves to sleep tonight.

Who's they'll?
Everyone in kilkenny?

At least everyone.

I'm also messing btw as I sense your not a hurling man.

Cabaal

Deiseen wrote: »

At least everyone.

I'm also messing btw as I sense your not a hurling man.

Nope, certainly not.
Couldn't give a monkeys about it and this need for some people to generalise all Kilkenny people as into Hurling is silly.

blue note

I listened to the two interviews on WLR yesterday - with Bobby Alyward and Paudie Coffey / Mary Butler.

On the PC/MB one - Mary Butler would really want to grow a backbone. It was incredibly stupid for her to agree to follow the party line on this. And even from FF's point of view, this must have done them serious harm in Waterford. And on top of how naive it was. I'd forgive her if the boundary extension was a bad idea and just something the people of Waterford wanted. But, she opposed a progressive move for the sake of her party at the expense of her constituents. I'll find it hard to forgive her for that. Now she is basically refusing to give any commitment on it. I didn't think much of her before, but she seems a seriously unimportant politician. I would never expect her to to much for the country, or much for the people of Waterford. She'll make up numbers for FF if we elect her again and that's about it.

On the Bobby Alyward interview - now there's a man who's going to represent his constituency and to hell with what's best for anyone! It very simply seems to be a "not one inch" defence. The one point he makes which people in Waterford are largely ignoring is that in years to come it is very possible that the city will extend further into Kilkenny and as a result it would make sense to extend the boundary again. The city is dramatically underdeveloped on that side of the river, so it's likely that we'll see a lot of development take place there. Once the city reaches it's new boundaries, assuming development beyond them is as slow as before it would make sense to extend them again. The thing about this is, that's not a bad thing. It's just what happens when cities prosper. And if the city is growing like that it's unquestionably good for the people of South Kilkenny and beyond - it will strengthen the arguments for a university, hospital services, will provide extra jobs, amenities, etc.

There's just a massive problem that we're so attached to county identity. And I feel the exact same - I'm a very proud Waterford man. I would like to think though that if I was in their boots that I'd be able to see unblinkered that this extension is a good move and support it.

A comparison I was thinking of is if Tipp boundaries were to extend into Waterford for Clonmel to develop. I was asking myself how I'd feel about it and in all honesty, I wouldn't care. I think it would make sense if development had been so lopsided and it would help the people living there. But the Kilkenny Waterford rivalry seems far more intense.

road_high

Deiseen wrote: »

If you take IDA jobs alone, then Waterford has almost more jobs than the other counties in the South East combined. If this does not point towards a city that is an regional economic driver then I don't know what is.

It's also interesting to note that Kilkenny has the least amount of IDA related jobs, even less than Carlow which has about 50% of the population of KK. I wonder why this is?

Because Kilkenny was never spoon food or molly coddled with IDA jobs like Waterford has been. And there's not a large working class population for factory type work.

road_high

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

I've just read the main points of the report and it is fascinating. However pg 37, article 4.5 states "....the boundary of Waterford City moved in 1840 from the river-centre to include lands north of the river." It goes on to detail how the boundary only ever moved out from the river from that time till now.

This is factually incorrect.

The map above was included in the 1840 Waterford City Boundary Commission which shrunk the city from its 'Ancient Limits' as outlined on this map, which extended "about a mile and a half on the North".
See for yourself (don't ask me why its on Limerick City's website); http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/068%20waterford.pdf

Before Queen Elizabeth I's Signals Corp drew up county boundaries in the 17th century there were just incorporated borough's (town's/city's) and their Liberties. This map shows ancient Waterford City and its Liberties as including most of the area currently under question. There was no Co. Waterford or Co. Kilkenny before then.
As for the location of the majority of objectors, pg19 of the report clearly shows the majority from in and around Kilkenny City which only confirms what I have always believed; that this whole bun-fight is really an inter-city rivalry rather than an inter-county one. Business/HSE/Academic interested parties from Kilkenny City will do all they can to keep Waterford down in the hope it will benefit their city. They don't give a **** about S.Kilkenny/Ferrybank/Belview Port other than as a handy revenue stream and pay lip service to Waterford City as the Gateway for the region.
Proud Kilkenny objectors from within the area concerned don't know which side their bread is buttered on and go along with the Kilkenny city agenda against their own interests. IMO:)

Believe me in the normal course , people in Kilkenny really don't think about Waterford at all- unlike here where Kilkenny is a daily obsession. I could have read your post a 1,000 time here in the past, it's the same old mantra.
It's only because of this of affront people up North are talking about Waterford, other than that it's not on the daily radar.

road_high

Deiseen wrote: »

It certainly matters when hurling minnows like Waterford, who are also trying to take your land, come up to your turf and beat you.

They'll say they don't care about the league but will cry themselves to sleep tonight.

Remind me again, which of Kilkenny's 36 All Ireland's were won in early February?
Seen as you brought it up

Johnboy1951

Dunmoreroader wrote:

Before Queen Elizabeth I's Signals Corp drew up county boundaries in the 17th century there were just incorporated borough's (town's/city's) and their Liberties. This map shows ancient Waterford City and its Liberties as including most of the area currently under question. There was no Co. Waterford or Co. Kilkenny before then.

So when Co. Kilkenny was created there was a land grab from 'Waterford City and its Liberties', and this recommendation reverses (for the most part) that land grab.

Seems reasonable to me

Is there compensation due to Waterford for its loss in the intervening years?

zulutango

What do readers here think of an amalgamation of Kilkenny and Waterford Councils? I think it's the most sensible solution. Create one strong region rather than two weak ones. I'm not sure what the new, enlarged authority could be called. Hurling teams could continue to align themselves along the traditional english county boundaries if they so wished.

p.s. I am from neither Kilkenny nor Waterford, and don't have loyalty to one over another.

azimuth17

The posts from Road_High suggest that people "up north" near the Kilkenny county town don't think about Waterford that much, although the number of submissions that originated in every form from that area would contradict that. It is also patently obvious that Kilkenny (the county town) does not have another local authority clamped right up against its front door. Brian Cody suggested that rivalry should be confined to the sports field and I agree , but flag waving populists like Phil Hogan are not afraid to use the GAA analogy when it suits them. Road-high proves the adage that when not argued into a point of view , its hard to be argued out of it. No matter what anyone says or shows or thinks or proves the rebuttal is always the same ,usually coupled with disparaging remark(s) about Waterford city on any topic you care to choose. The historic boundaries (map) were there for centuries and the independent commission proposed a return to essentially those boundaries. Regardless of how the city might develop on that side of the river in the future, and it is inevitable courtesy of the massive investment in servicing land via the Waterford Waste Water Treatment facility in Gorteens, I don't see another boundary extension being feasible. AND remember, the Port of Waterford and its annual millions in rates (unspent in south Kilkenny) has been gifted to Co Kilkenny.

beazee

zulutango wrote: »

I'm not sure what the new, enlarged authority could be called.

Waterkenny or Kilford