Boundary Extension for City?

robtri

Irishlad2014 wrote: »

Maybe because the know they are representing Waterford people living in Ferrybank/ Sth KK?

whats the breakdown of South KK and ferrybank (excluding waterford owned area's)in terms of number of waterford people living there?

road_high

Irishlad2014 wrote: »

Maybe because the know they are representing Waterford people living in Ferrybank/ Sth KK?

They try represent everyone regardless of county I'm sure and not just Ferrybank.,

Cabaal

Irishlad2014 wrote: »

Let the trolls big up KK and knock Waterford in the Kilkenny forum, they are adding nothing of value to the Boundary Expansion discussion here - they are just looking for reaction.

If you have a problem with a post then report it.
It's not for you to claim somebody is a troll just because they don't agree with you.

Squidvicious

azimuth17 wrote: »

I am afraid that you do not fully comprehend the 24/7 position Robtri nor indeed the disposition of services within the region. Everyone acknowledges that there will be people in Carlow, North Wexford and West Waterford who will leak out or seek out health care in other regions. There are no regional services in St Luke's Kilkenny (maybe a small piece of one?) , UHW is the regional acute hospital service provider for the 500,000 people in the region. This forum is about a boundary extension necessary to allow Waterford to develop in a more coherent manner for the betterment of the region. Road-high and others in KK (and its only KK) don't want that region, but they should not (IMHO) be here telling us why we can't support issues we believe will better things for us all. We have to listen to thunder I suppose.

I'm very much behind the 24 hour cardiac care for UHW, mainly because every minute counts in heart attack situations so it's important that there are well-distributed regional centres offering 24 hour care. However, the ambivalent attitude to better services for UHW isn't necessarily an anti-Waterford thing. How often do you hear people in Waterford saying that they'd prefer hospital care in Dublin for some complaints because the Dublin hospitals are seen as better(rightly or wrongly)? Are these (Waterford) people anti-Waterford? Road-High seems to me to be ambivalent towards UHW as opposed to being hostile to it. Like some Waterford people, he simply thinks that he'll get better medical care in a Dublin hospital. It's a point of view.

I'm not directing this at you personally, but a lot of people are seeing anti-Waterford biases where they don't really exist. How many Kilkenny people do you know personally who are anti-Waterford or Waterford people who are anti-Kilkenny for that matter? I've met very few of either sort and I don't think that there are that many here either.

As for the second bit bolded, some of us simply see no benefit to the region, the people who will be transferred or even to Waterford in the proposed change. And that's not anti-Waterford either.

Harry Palmr

I could post that sketch from Life of Brian about now I think - but won't!

Max Powers

Squidvicious wrote: »

I'm very much behind the 24 hour cardiac care for UHW, mainly because every minute counts in heart attack situations so it's important that there are well-distributed regional centres offering 24 hour care. However, the ambivalent attitude to better services for UHW isn't necessarily an anti-Waterford thing. How often do you hear people in Waterford saying that they'd prefer hospital care in Dublin for some complaints because the Dublin hospitals are seen as better(rightly or wrongly)? Are these (Waterford) people anti-Waterford? Road-High seems to me to be ambivalent towards UHW as opposed to being hostile to it. Like some Waterford people, he simply thinks that he'll get better medical care in a Dublin hospital. It's a point of view.

I'm not directing this at you personally, but a lot of people are seeing anti-Waterford biases where they don't really exist. How many Kilkenny people do you know personally who are anti-Waterford or Waterford people who are anti-Kilkenny for that matter? I've met very few of either sort and I don't think that there are that many here either.

As for the second bit bolded, some of us simply see no benefit to the region, the people who will be transferred or even to Waterford in the proposed change. And that's not anti-Waterford either.

One difference/problem with what you said about some getting better care in Dublin, sure they might have better facilities but they will not be there on time if traveling from south kk or middle kk probably too.

azimuth17

Max Powers wrote: »

One difference/problem with what you said about some getting better care in Dublin, sure they might have better facilities but they will not be there on time if traveling from south kk or middle kk probably too.

I can see some sort of clarity in what is being said. I should point out that there is no evidence whatsoever that the quality of heart attack care in UHW is less than in Dublin where"facilities might be better". I do not doubt that there is a quantum of expertise in Dublin and that the private hospitals offer a fine service. No one doubts that. Very many people do not have access, either by time or otherwise to those services.
The issue being debated here ab initio, is the boundary extension. Many people including myself view that as a necessary thing to allow Waterford city return to its historic and less confined boundaries to facilitate orderly growth on both sides of the river. The independent report recommends that should happen.
A better developed Waterford city is seen by us (include who you will) as a way to create a better urban offer for the south east, thus strengthening the region through availability of services (and acute hospital services are one vital element, university status is another) in the region. Even the most facile examination shows that jobs in Waterford attract high numbers (40% of workforce commute into the city to work according to the last analysis I saw) of people from KK and Wx and elsewhere. A better Waterford which offers better services would help create a better economy in this region. This is my view and I believe shared by others. We are entitled to have our aspirations and to work ceaselessly to achieve them, which Waterford city has always done. It is our responsibility to do so as the largest urban area in the south east. People my not agree with that analysis, but it is not for KK posters to obsess on this and other Waterford fora, relentlessly telling us why we should not have aspirations and work towards them. It smacks of a miserable begrudgery which helps no one.It may well be that the country resolves towards Dublin, Cork,Galway nodes to the detriment of the south east. The upcoming government strategy suggests that Waterford will have some regional role to play. I welcome that.

Squidvicious

Max Powers wrote: »

One difference/problem with what you said about some getting better care in Dublin, sure they might have better facilities but they will not be there on time if traveling from south kk or middle kk probably too.

I agree fully - and that's especially the case with cardiac care. I'm just saying that those who don't agree with both of us aren't necessarily anti-Waterford, particularly the farther you go from Waterford the less the disadvantages of Dublin will be.

Waterford's problem in the South-East is that it simply isn't large enough relative to the other centres to be seen as a real regional capital. Waterford has always been hamstrung by having other strong centres in the region. I know that it is considerably larger than Wexford or Kilkenny, but look at the other regional cities. Galway has no competitors and is the capital of a large county. Limerick may have a little competition from Ennis but is undisputed as capital of the Mid-West. Co.Cork is nearly as big as the South-East population-wise and there's nowhere in Cork county(or even Kerry) which can hold a candle to it. I don't think that Wexford, KK or Clonmel aspire to being regional capitals. It's just that they don't see Waterford as being "their" city. They're big enough to be important centres in their own right(albeit smaller than Waterford). Improved services for Waterford aren't really seen as improved services for Kilkenny or Wexford. Indeed, the whole concept of the South-East region is suspect. I very much doubt that anyone in Carlow has any feeling that Waterford is of any relevance to them. I've spent a bit of time around Kilkenny city and, they're really not anti-Waterford - it's simply seen as being another city/county and I would bet that it's the same in Wexford. Waterford is the only viable candidate to be capital of the South-East but for the reasons above, that just doesn't count for that much.

A big factor for the other regional cities is that they are the capitals of large counties. Even Co. Limerick is double the population of Co.Waterford. Those counties push for their capital cities and in bigger counties, that counts for a lot. Meanwhile, Co. Waterford is smaller to start with. And Waterford city isn't even the undisputed capital of co. Waterford.

A boundary extension will not change the above..

zulutango

Squidvicious wrote: »

.... Limerick may have a little competition from Ennis but is undisputed as capital of the Mid-West. ...

A big factor for the other regional cities is that they are the capitals of large counties. Even Co. Limerick is double the population of Co.Waterford. Those counties push for their capital cities and in bigger counties, that counts for a lot. Meanwhile, Co. Waterford is smaller to start with. And Waterford city isn't even the undisputed capital of co. Waterford.

A boundary extension will not change the above..

I'm following this discussion simply because we have a very similar situation in Limerick. The city is a large urban area effectively on the border of two counties. It is, for all intents and purposes, the city for Counties Clare, Limerick and North Tipperary. But there is still huge push back. We had 10,000 people march in one of the suburbs of the city when a boundary extension into Clare was mooted. 10,000 people bussed in from GAA clubs all over Clare to tell the people of suburban Limerick City they should remain in Clare. Why? Because that's Clare land. You couldn't make it up.

The amalgamation of city and county councils was the right thing to do, but it would have been just as right to amalgamate with Clare. Ultimately, I think if we have any sense, then Clare and Limerick will amalgamate, and Kilkenny and Waterford will amalgamate too. That would give strong regions. The tug of war between counties is what is keeping the regions weak.

Squidvicious

zulutango wrote: »

I'm following this discussion simply because we have a very similar situation in Limerick. The city is a large urban area effectively on the border of two counties. It is, for all intents and purposes, the city for Counties Clare, Limerick and North Tipperary. But there is still huge push back. We had 10,000 people march in one of the suburbs of the city when a boundary extension into Clare was mooted. 10,000 people bussed in from GAA clubs all over Clare to tell the people of suburban Limerick City they should remain in Clare. Why? Because that's Clare land. You couldn't make it up.

The amalgamation of city and county councils was the right thing to do, but it would have been just as right to amalgamate with Clare. Ultimately, I think if we have any sense, then Clare and Limerick will amalgamate, and Kilkenny and Waterford will amalgamate too. That would give strong regions. The tug of war between counties is what is keeping the regions weak.

I agree that larger entities than counties would be a good idea for various reasons, including cost savings.

zulutango

Squidvicious wrote: »

I agree that larger entities than counties would be a good idea for various reasons, including cost savings.

I think the cost savings is the least important of the reasons. A region under one authority can have a single coherent plan and plot a sensible way forward. It could have a single major, urban centre (and it seems like that should be Waterford) that would provide excellent jobs, services, education opportunities for the people of the region, and its economy would grow significantly as a result. If the regional structure isn't accepted, then that won't happen as each county vies to do its own thing.

Johnboy1951

Essentially what is being proposed in the last few posts is the elimination of all administrative county boundaries, and the establishment of new regional boundaries for the purposes of regional development and administration.
In such a scenario country boundaries would be ignored.
Parts of a county could be in three different regions.
That would make no difference to residents 'county identity', only that some would be in different administrative regions.

In truth I think it would be a good thing but highly unlikely to ever materialise.

Teebor15

What ye are saying lads makes perfect sense, Counties are too small so create regions with a 'Capital' driving it on. But as we know Ireland is far to parochial and tribal to go for that. Even if you said let the county boundarys remain for the GAA it would just lead to internal regional conflict with one county in a region claiming they get nothing compared to the others. In other words the same as we have now just on a smaller scale. If you could cut out the 'GAA' element it would work great i'd imagine.

greenspurs

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Essentially what is being proposed in the last few posts is the elimination of all administrative county boundaries, and the establishment of new regional boundaries for the purposes of regional development and administration.
In such a scenario country boundaries would be ignored.
Parts of a county could be in three different regions.
That would make no difference to residents 'county identity', only that some would be in different administrative regions.

In truth I think it would be a good thing but highly unlikely to ever materialise.

With Kilkenny as the Capital ...........

zulutango

greenspurs wrote: »

With Kilkenny as the Capital ...........

There's an argument for it. It's a weak one though. It would be like saying Ennis, Nenagh or Newcastle West should be the 'capital' of the Midwest instead of Limerick City.

Johnboy1951

greenspurs wrote: »

With Kilkenny as the Capital ...........

No 'capital' needed ..... just administration for an area, and those administrative offices would not need to be in any particular location.

So they could be in Kilkenny, Wexford, Clonmel, Dungarven or any other place in the region.

What would be required would be professionals with the power to implement whatever plans were decided for the region ....... without any consideration of county/city/town loyalties.

azimuth17

This is the everything everywhere argument that has failed the south east for decades. We ended up with the worst economy in the state post crash and that was across ALL counties Some people post don't want a region at all(because it might be Waterford?) some suggest Kilkenny (Athlone is the centre of Ireland argument?).
The reality is that regions with a strong centre do well. I believe that Waterford with support from Kilkenny and Wexford and especially the former could fulfill that role for the betterment of the region which I believe in. S others can work theirs.

MRnotlob606

I am personally quite irate over the whole issue. Mary Butler was elected by Waterford to further the interests of Waterford people, but once she's in power decides she will support Micky Martins stance on the issue. Because Micky Martin know's the issues affecting people in the region ????.

I heard Bobby Alywards rediculous response to the the independent reports recommendations. His emotive and and lackluster response was rather embarrasing.

fuzzy dunlop

azimuth17 wrote: »

This is the everything everywhere argument that has failed the south east for decades. We ended up with the worst economy in the state post crash and that was across ALL counties Some people post don't want a region at all(because it might be Waterford?) some suggest Kilkenny (Athlone is the centre of Ireland argument?).
The reality is that regions with a strong centre do well. I believe that Waterford with support from Kilkenny and Wexford and especially the former could fulfill that role for the betterment of the region which I believe in. S others can work theirs.

Oh Dear! Has the "Kilkenny is the centre of the region" thing come up? It isn't. Most of the main population centres are equidistant to Waterford i.e Clonmel/Wexford/Kilkenny and most of the smaller ones lie within this triangle. The exact geographic regional centre is Thomastown. Big Deal. All the communications and road infrastructure radiates from Waterford. The second biggest river system in the country (Important for Water Supply) has Waterford as the main urban focal point. The most well developed gas energy and electricity generation infrastructure is in or near Waterford. Probably most important of all The Sanitation and Waterford supply infrastructure is focused in near Waterford with capacity for a population increase of 500000 people. All the infrastructure projects in the region are focused or unjustifiable without the presence of Waterford. There is simply nowhere in the South East of Ireland that has these advantages. It's not about superiority of the Deise over Kilkenny,Wexford or anywhere else.These are simply facts the facts on the ground.

fuzzy dunlop

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I am personally quite irate over the whole issue. Mary Butler was elected by Waterford to further the interests of Waterford people, but once she's in power decides she will support Micky Martins stance on the issue. Because Micky Martin know's the issues affecting people in the region ????.

I heard Bobby Alywards rediculous response to the the independent reports recommendations. His emotive and and lackluster response was rather embarrasing.

I am afraid to ask what she said. She is f*cking awful. The last thing I heard from her can be boiled down to. "Make Rural Areas Great Again!" or something of that sort.

robtri

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Oh Dear! Has the "Kilkenny is the centre of the region" thing come up? It isn't. Most of the main population centres are equidistant to Waterford i.e Clonmel/Wexford/Kilkenny and most of the smaller ones lie within this triangle. The exact geographic regional centre is Thomastown. Big Deal. All the communications and road infrastructure radiates from Waterford. The second biggest river system in the country (Important for Water Supply) has Waterford as the main urban focal point. The most well developed gas energy and electricity generation infrastructure is in or near Waterford. Probably most important of all The Sanitation and Waterford supply infrastructure is focused in near Waterford with capacity for a population increase of 500000 people. All the infrastructure projects in the region are focused or unjustifiable without the presence of Waterford. There is simply nowhere in the South East of Ireland that has these advantages. It's not about superiority of the Deise over Kilkenny,Wexford or anywhere else.These are simply facts the facts on the ground.

what Electricity generation infrastructure?

azimuth17

The gas generation plant at Great Island. The ESB in the mid 1960s sought a location for an oil generation plant to provide supply security for Waterford and link into the national grid. They examined the three corners of Great Island, Snowhill and Cheekpoint for suitability. They settled on great Island for depth of Water and because grid linkage did not require overhead cables across Waterford Harbour, but went from Wexford to co Kilkenny via Ballinlaw instead.

robtri

azimuth17 wrote: »

The gas generation plant at Great Island. The ESB in the mid 1960s sought a location for an oil generation plant to provide supply security for Waterford and link into the national grid. They examined the three corners of Great Island, Snowhill and Cheekpoint for suitability. They settled on great Island for depth of Water and because grid linkage did not require overhead cables across Waterford Harbour, but went from Wexford to co Kilkenny via Ballinlaw instead.

Great island is Wexford.

while its great it does not secure any Electrical Infrastructure for Waterford.
Waterford has issues with Electrical infrastructure, especially the sub stations that are feeding the likes of the IDA estate .

azimuth17

I suppose that says it all really. Five miles down stream from Waterford city and "its Wexford" as if it was in Outer Mongolia. No offence, but that's the kind of thinking that has killed this region. It feeds into the national grid there and the 220KV line that feeds from there to Kilmagemogue, Kilmeaden.. I am not sure there is an issue in Waterford city with power to areas like the IDA estate, the only place that I have heard is that power supply to Belview is inadequate.

Dunmoreroader

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F21134170%5F15036%5F21%2D02%2D2017%5F

The level of debate nationally is awful on this issue. Sean O'Rourke's a very good journalist but from this podcast, it just seems to be treated as some parochial spat, a nice 'colour piece' to have a titter about.
Also the factually inaccuracies which the Slieverue GAA Chairwoman is let away with shows the reporter hasn't looked at the report. Slieverue GAA club was never in the 'Area of Interest' of the boundary review in the first place, don't mind the fact that the recommendation leaves Slieverue village in Kilkenny. Not that this will affect GAA boundaries anyway but sure lets talk to some colourful locals with their 'real' insights says RTE.
So they go from interviewing people in Waterford to people in Slieverue, which as we've established is hardly affected - no discussion with any of the vast majority of the people this WILL affect i.e. those living in the residential estates of Ferrybank that have spilled over in to Kilkenny i.e. Rockshire Road above Marymount, Belmont Road beyond boys school, Abbey Road beyond Abbey school.

azimuth17

Too sensible by half DMR. I understand the Kilkenny People last week had six pages of coverage and did not quote anything from the actual Boundary Commission report? As for RTE objectivity?

robtri

azimuth17 wrote: »

I suppose that says it all really. Five miles down stream from Waterford city and "its Wexford" as if it was in Outer Mongolia. No offence, but that's the kind of thinking that has killed this region. It feeds into the national grid there and the 220KV line that feeds from there to Kilmagemogue, Kilmeaden.. I am not sure there is an issue in Waterford city with power to areas like the IDA estate, the only place that I have heard is that power supply to Belview is inadequate.

there is supply and infrastructure issues...a lot of very old infrastructure cause supply issues

i only mentioned the electricity generation as it was raised as being a plus point for that waterford i was genuinely curious.. I do agree makes no odds as the grid is the grid
it was also closed down by the ESB and it is only in recent years is it under private ownership

jelutong

That piece on Radio 1 was rubbish I agree but Slieverue village, hurling pitch etc is well and truly in the Area of Interest according to the map I looked at anyway.

Deiseen

jelutong wrote: »

That piece on Radio 1 was rubbish I agree but Slieverue  village, hurling pitch etc is well and truly in the Area of Interest according to the map I looked at anyway.

What map are you looking at? It goes nowhere near it.

Irishlad2014

azimuth17 wrote: »

Too sensible by half DMR. I understand the Kilkenny People last week had six pages of coverage and did not quote anything from the actual Boundary Commission report? As for RTE objectivity?

I have looked at the KK people the last few weeks, it is the Daily Mail of local newspapers. Full of Sensationalism, false facts and twisted truths. An absolute rag!