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Scotland vs Ireland, 4th Feb 2017, Murrayfield, 2:25, RTÉ 2

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Comments

  • #1142
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    I think people are being far too wise after the event on this one. Like any clever dummy, it looks stupid in hinsight to have been so well hoodwinked. I woukd give great credit to Cotter for this one, and to the players for pulling it off to perfection. Each forward focused on his own man. A system failure was spotted and exploited.
    If such a move had been made by Ireland to pull the game out of the fire, people would have been lauding Joe to the heavens as the geatest rugby brain ever.

    Don't get me wrong, it was absolutely brilliant. I applauded it. I wonder how many times we'll see it happen on rugby pitches around Ireland next weekend actually.

    But failure to count numbers in a lineout isn't forgivable at junior level, never mind international level.... Poor, poor, poor.


  • #1143
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    I think people are being far too wise after the event on this one. Like any clever dummy, it looks stupid in hinsight to have been so well hoodwinked. I woukd give great credit to Cotter for this one, and to the players for pulling it off to perfection. Each forward focused on his own man. A system failure was spotted and exploited.
    If such a move had been made by Ireland to pull the game out of the fire, people would have been lauding Joe to the heavens as the geatest rugby brain ever.

    That's true, but our lineout was under massive pressure even at this stage, so there was an onus for a more collective effort. Scottish possession from their lineout was near perfect, the ones we won, a lot of them were scrambling efforts.


  • #1144
    mossym
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭mossym


    as ever, i'm fully convinced after reading a boards thread that Rugby stands alone as a sport in its ability to have everyone that watches it see a completely different game.

    years ago i thought it was just me and ryle nugent. now i realise it's everyone. i don't feel so bad.


  • #1145
    aled
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 229 ✭✭aled


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Ah here. Since when is a crunch situation in the Six Nations the time to consider 'development'? Murray is a far superior player. Marmion will get an opportunity to start in the summer when Murray is on the Lions. Happy?

    what do you want me to say thomond. i just want opportunity for all. That said if that is as good as we are then I worry


  • #1146
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    nagdefy wrote: »
    We have to treat 'the two imposters' of victory and defeat the same. We're not as good as we thought or as bad as we feel we are this evening.

    One thing has struck me though about our back 3, while individually they are all fine and international standard, none of them would put 'the fear of Gawd' in you pace wise or in doing something extra special. We don't have a Stuart Hogg. Not since Tommy Bowe was in his prime have we had such a speedster. Or back to the likes of Denis Hickey and Simon Geoghegan. While Keith Earls has pace and had a fine game today, for me he's just lacking a little bit of physicality required to be world class. Denis Hickey had his problems in that department too, especially against Stefan Terblanche and the boks in 1998. But he bulked up a little by 2000 and the game hadn't giant wings, bar Jonah, then.

    Realistically the other wingers and Tiernan O'Halloran aren't any better at the moment but maybe they do need to be given more game time. What would be wrong with putting O'Halloran in fullback against Italy?

    We have some speedsters in the oven, but it'll be a while before they're done and on the international stage.

    One of the biggest disappointments of the game was seeing just how slow Zebo has become. Apparently our 'speedster' on an intercept with a clean pair of heels he got closed down almost instantly. That was disappointing to see.

    Having said that, you don't need speedsters to win you games. That's the beauty about rugby, you just need to play to your strengths, and our strengths was always using 1 to 15 as rugby players, not position specific players. Having backs that can clean a ruck solo is massively important as is having a flanker who can fend and pop a pass or run a loop. We don't need to get sucked into the panic of having quick small backs and fat forwards, it's not our style and it doesn't work for us.


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  • #1147
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    aled wrote: »
    what do you want me to say thomond. i just want opportunity for all. That said if that is as good as we are then I worry

    I'm out. You refuse to read my posts.


  • #1148
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    mossym wrote: »
    as ever, i'm fully convinced after reading a boards thread that Rugby stands alone as a sport in its ability to have everyone that watches it see a completely different game.

    years ago i thought it was just me and ryle nugent. now i realise it's everyone. i don't feel so bad.

    It's amazing watching a match (rugby/hurling/soccer) and people just see an entirely different game. One of the traits that makes sport great.


  • #1149
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    The lineout was picked off today. Scotland clearly did their homework on it. Now we face Italy, coached by Conor O'Shea who also knows our lineout like the back of his hand.

    If you stop Ireland's lineout and get the defensive line up high, you have done most of the job again Ireland. It doesn't take a rugby aficionado to work that out, let alone Guy Noves, Eddie Jones or whoever is coaching Wales.

    The game changes, you can't just rely on one tactic and expect it to last forever. We'll probably beat Italy because they are not very good but there is big trouble brewing against Wales, France and England.

    We were supposed to do some soul searching after Argentina. After a year and half, what have we really changed? Are we really confident that history won't repeat itself in 2019? I don't think we've learned anything


  • #1150
    FixdePitchmark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,773 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Clonmel1000 wrote: »
    Just shows I suppose winning meaningless challenge games means nothing in tournament sport.

    Seems most other countries work in a 4 year World Cup cycle.

    We had guys on the field - that can hardly be part of that plan ?


  • #1151
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    We've missed Payne today. Ringrose will be a great player but we are going to struggle with him at 13 for the championship. He was at sea defensively in the first half. The first two tries wouldn't have been scored so easily had the likes of Payne been playing in his place.

    I struggle to understand the criticism of Jackson. I thought he had a good game on first watch.

    As I predicted before the game, the lineout struggled. We need more options there.

    All that said, the biggest difference between the sides on the day was the coaching. We didn't look well coached out there.

    Agree with you generally - thought Jackson was poor in terms of directing play in the first half. He kept asking for screeners, which was completely the wrong play, we needed to punch up the middle with pods - I think a word in his ear at half time was had as he stopped asking for back to run screeners straight away.

    But yeah, I'd go as far as to say with Payne on the pitch we would've won that game. 2nd try wouldn't have happened anyway.


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  • #1152
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    The lineout was picked off today. Scotland clearly did their homework on it. Now we face Italy, coached by Conor O'Shea who also knows our lineout like the back of his hand.

    If you stop Ireland's lineout and get the defensive line up high, you have done most of the job again Ireland. It doesn't take a rugby aficionado to work that out, let alone Guy Noves, Eddie Jones or whoever is coaching Wales.

    The game changes, you can't just rely on one tactic and expect it to last forever. We'll probably beat Italy because they are not very good but there is big trouble brewing against Wales, France and England.

    We were supposed to do some soul searching after Argentina. After a year and half, what have we really changed? Are we really confident that history won't repeat itself in 2019? I don't think we've learned anything

    Why would COS know our lineout better than any other coach with a TV?


  • #1153
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    .ak wrote: »
    One of the biggest disappointments of the game was seeing just how slow Zebo has become. Apparently our 'speedster' on an intercept with a clean pair of heels he got closed down almost instantly. That was disappointing to see.

    He absolutely has to be carrying a knock, there is no way he is that pedestrian. I joked before about "slow" Dave being faster and on the evidence of that break he most certainly is which I think we'd have noticed before. Something must have prevented him getting to top speed mechanically.


  • #1154
    aled
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 229 ✭✭aled


    .ak wrote: »
    We have some speedsters in the oven, but it'll be a while before they're done and on the international stage.

    One of the biggest disappointments of the game was seeing just how slow Zebo has become. Apparently our 'speedster' on an intercept with a clean pair of heels he got closed down almost instantly. That was disappointing to see.

    Having said that, you don't need speedsters to win you games. That's the beauty about rugby, you just need to play to your strengths, and our strengths was always using 1 to 15 as rugby players, not position specific players. Having backs that can clean a ruck solo is massively important as is having a flanker who can fend and pop a pass or run a loop. We don't need to get sucked into the panic of having quick small backs and fat forwards, it's not our style and it doesn't work for us.
    Whole game was so disappointing. Everybody did what they were told to do. it simply was not good enough. Grrr Joe


  • #1155
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,196 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    I'm predicting that England, France and Wales will beat Scotland easily.
    They are not a great team we just made them look good.


  • #1156
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    aled wrote: »
    what do you want me to say thomond. i just want opportunity for all. That said if that is as good as we are then I worry

    There is opportunity for all. Joe considers all players, and picks the ones he considers best. He is an equal opportunity selector. If any of they guys you mentionvraise their games to a higher level that that of the incumbents, have no fear, Joe will then, and only then, pick them. Which is what we expect from a good coach - dice roll, knee jerk, change and hope, are the hall marks of the poor coach. The best coaches know at all times who their best players are. And so try to make them work better asva team, and keep selecting them.


  • #1157
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    Seems most other countries work in a 4 year World Cup cycle.

    We had guys on the field - that can hardly be part of that plan ?

    We have the youngest team we've had since the game went pro.

    Every team will be playing guys that are unlikely to last until 2019 but you don't hamstring yourself in a tournament by prioritising player development. You prioritise winning and do whatever player development you can or more likely what is forced on you.


  • #1158
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,006 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    .ak wrote: »
    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    I think what all the stats back up is that most players, and for almost all the match, did indeed play well. The couple of brainfarts, or Henshaw not slipping, Hogg not being an absolute gem, and we probably would have one.
    People are being distracted by the fact that we went a long way behind early, and had a freak ****up at a lineout, and not giving enough credit to a very well organised defence by the Scots.

    I know one player isn't being talked about here and I'm surprised; Jarred Payne. Badly missed today. That 2nd try wouldn't have happened if he was on the field.

    I mentioned him!

    We missed Payne badly today. Our defence was too narrow. Payne would have made a huge difference to that.


  • #1159
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    aled wrote: »
    Whole game was so disappointing. Everybody did what they were told to do. it simply was not good enough. Grrr Joe

    I'm really not sure how you keep coming to this conclusion.

    The players take responsibility when they turn up and have a massive game, but when they lose it's Joe's fault? Riiiiight....

    We turned up late to the party. The lads started stale. How much of that can be blamed on the coach? I'm not sure. But how many caps were in that 15? Enough to know they had to come out of the traps all guns firing. They didn't. They only have themselves to blame for that.


  • #1160
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    aled wrote: »
    Whole game was so disappointing. Everybody did what they were told to do. it simply was not good enough. Grrr Joe

    Biggest disappointment for me is the GS is gone, my interest won't be the same for the rest of it. At least the new BP system may make it more interesting. I'd like Joe to win 1 GS.


  • #1161
    aled
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 229 ✭✭aled


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    There is opportunity for all. Joe considers all players, and picks the ones he considers best. He is an equal opportunity selector. If any of they guys you mentionvraise their games to a higher level that that of the incumbents, have no fear, Joe will then, and only then, pick them. Which is what we expect from a good coach - dice roll, knee jerk, change and hope, are the hall marks of the poor coach. The best coaches know at all times who their best players are. And so try to make them work better asva team, and keep selecting them.
    I am not a huge fan of your opinion. That said I am not a huge fan of Joe these days. In truth its not about any player its about joe schmidt. and he is currently not providing much guidance


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  • #1162
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The problem for the tournament isn't losing a game. It's coughing up that loss to Scotland. They aren't good enough and despite the loss I don't buy into the pre game talk and building them up. We have Wales, France and England to come and realistically we can't be confident of 3/3 here.

    Scotland were improved but are still a squad of good backs with a poor pack.


  • #1163
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,732 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    Seems most other countries work in a 4 year World Cup cycle.

    We had guys on the field - that can hardly be part of that plan ?
    Apart from the fact that we don't actually have a huge player base, you just can't take ten or more players out of the squad and expect the remainder and replacements to maintain the same standards. The graph would be like a sine wave. If it ever had peaks that is.

    How many of our starting pack today and bench were at the last world cup less than two years ago? Furlong, Dillane, VdF, Ryan, Scannell and CJ Stander weren't there. That's six out of a possible thirteen new caps since then.


  • #1164
    FixdePitchmark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,773 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We have the youngest team we've had since the game went pro.

    Every team will be playing guys that are unlikely to last until 2019 but you don't hamstring yourself in a tournament by prioritising player development. You prioritise winning and do whatever player development you can or more likely what is forced on you.

    Yes - but as was said above - after last world cup we needed to review how we work the 4 year cycle.

    We haven't learnt anything - some lads on the pitch, simply too old to be considered.


  • #1165
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    aled wrote: »
    I am not a huge fan of your opinion. That said I am not a huge fan of Joe these days. In truth its not about any player its about joe schmidt. and he is currently not providing much guidance

    He's one of the best coaches in the world and has delivered an historic list of results from back to back championships to wins over the SH teams.

    That you don't like him has everything to do with your ignorance of his ability as a coach and the decisions he makes and nothing to do with his actual ability as a coach.


  • #1166
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,006 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The problem for the tournament isn't losing a game. It's coughing up that loss to Scotland. They aren't good enough and despite the loss I don't buy into the pre game talk and building them up. We have Wales, France and England to come and realistically we can't be confident of 3/3 here.

    Scotland were improved but are still a squad of good backs with a poor pack.

    If things take a wrong turn we could end up with one win in the tournament. Equally we could win all four remaining games and win the Championship.

    Given many, including yourself, believe Sexton was the missing link today we are fortunate he will back for the last three games.

    On that basis I reckon we'll still win the Championship.


  • #1167
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    Seems most other countries work in a 4 year World Cup cycle.

    We had guys on the field - that can hardly be part of that plan ?

    There was only one definite for me in today's 23 who was there because of pure selection: Rory Best.


  • #1168
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    aled wrote: »
    I am not a huge fan of your opinion. That said I am not a huge fan of Joe these days. In truth its not about any player its about joe schmidt. and he is currently not providing much guidance

    So after Ireland beat the All Blacks and Australia in the Autumn, you had your suspicions that Schmidt wasn't up to the task? I find that quite unusual. It makes me wonder what he could have done in the autumn to earn your approval.


  • #1169
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    bilston wrote: »
    If things take a wrong turn we could end up with one win in the tournament. Equally we could win all four remaining games and win the Championship.

    Given many, including yourself, believe Sexton was the missing link today we are fortunate he will back for the last three games.

    On that basis I reckon we'll still win the Championship.

    I think we badly needed a France win for that happen today. Can see England taking massive wins along the road to Dublin.


  • #1170
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,732 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    Yes - but as was said above - after last world cup we needed to review how we work the 4 year cycle.

    We haven't learnt anything - some lads on the pitch, simply too old to be considered.
    You can't just throw lads into the squad because they're young and others are old. They need to be developed. We've actually had problems with back three players for a while now. Some players like Luke Fitz and Felix Jones have had to retire. Others just haven't been good enough.

    I'm looking at pretty much every provincial match and although there are some promising youngsters out there, they're still far too inexperienced at league or European level to be dropped into international rugby yet.


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  • #1171
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    Yes - but as was said above - after last world cup we needed to review how we work the 4 year cycle.

    We haven't learnt anything - some lads on the pitch, simply too old to be considered.

    The mix of youth and experience is vastly skewed towards youth. Do you drop Best and Heaslip for vastly inferior options just so that we have a full squad of guaranteed 2019 guys?

    And look at how much turnover there has already been since the last world cup. Many of the guys who are filling spots right now won't be first choice by the next WC. Our continuity and planning for 2019 is better than fine. It's not an issue.


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