Scotland vs Ireland, 4th Feb 2017, Murrayfield, 2:25, RTÉ 2

Boggy Turf · 04-02-2017 08:23PM

A lot of the comments here are very self absorbed. We could have won this game but I thought Scotland deserved to win. Scotland showed great heart, bravery and ferocious tackling. I did not think they would last the pace but they hung on to the end and despite going behind (after leading 21-5), they found a way to win by 5 points.

All credit to Scotland and I hope their recovery continues. The 6 nations championship needs a strong Scotland.

aled · 04-02-2017 08:24PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its not a question of trust. Murray is leagues above Marmion and subbing Murray is madness.

And there you go. How can we possibly develop with such an attitude, which in truth Joe subscribes to

The Talking Bread · 04-02-2017 08:25PM

What was that about at the end there "England's match winner's now deleted instagram post" on RTE. I missed it

its_phil · 04-02-2017 08:26PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its not a question of trust. Murray is leagues above Marmion and subbing Murray is madness. Earls, Kearney, Trimble, and Zeebs next are clearly our best back three quartet.
If there were better alternatives, Joe would indeed replace them. But there arent. So you keep going with the best options in town.
Game strategy was poor today yes. But thats a rare one for Joe. Painfuk to take, but I would give him a bye on this one. He has more than enough credit in the bank. Its how he will alter it for the other tough games that will be the test.

Well the best option in town was clearly tired when he boxed kick a ball so far that it was unchaseable and coughed up position to a team with the lead.

Just do not understand the logic of 80 minutes for Murray there. Fresh legs off the bench for visibly tired legs would have helped just like they would have in the second test in SA.

CMOTDibbler · 04-02-2017 08:26PM

aled wrote: »

Both are really good players. So do you blame them or why did it go wrong for them?

It's very hard to pinpoint lineout problems. So many moving parts. You've the hooker, the jumper and the lifters. Then you've all the movement to confuse the opposition. I don't really know which element failed us today, but to be fair, the Grays are probably the biggest guys in the 6N bar Toner, so always likely to compete strongly.

Henderson, don't know what was up with him really. He might have been doing a lot of the unseen work that you only notice when somebody compiles stats on rucks. Maybe we're being unfair there.

Hagz · 04-02-2017 08:27PM

aled wrote: »

And there you go. How can we possibly develop with such an attitude, which in truth Joe subscribes to

It's not attitude. It's watching match footage and seeing that one player plays the sport of rugby far far better than another player.

nagdefy · 04-02-2017 08:27PM

The ref shouldn't be used as an excuse. We usually benefit from them and today we did very well with all the scrum penalties given.

We can't blame the ref because we coughed up so much ball from lineouts that resulted from these scrum penalties.

We were sloppier than usual today, mostly in the first half but at 22-21 we were also casual with possession and didn't get a 4th try to wrap things up.

.ak · 04-02-2017 08:27PM

The biggest thing for me today was the 12 sneaking into the line out. That for me was the signal that we weren't prepared for the game properly and I had admitted defeat in my head at that stage. Best barely reacted to it when he got the ball.

That Irish team turned up to Murrayfield thinking they'd won the game. I haven't seen as poor a performance, both on and off the ball since before Schmidt took over.

thomond2006 · 04-02-2017 08:27PM

aled wrote: »

And there you go. How can we possibly develop with such an attitude, which in truth Joe subscribes to

Ah here. Since when is a crunch situation in the Six Nations the time to consider 'development'? Murray is a far superior player. Marmion will get an opportunity to start in the summer when Murray is on the Lions. Happy?

.ak · 04-02-2017 08:28PM

aled wrote: »

And there you go. How can we possibly develop with such an attitude, which in truth Joe subscribes to

Honestly, do you think Marmion is anywhere near the level of Murray? Anywhere remotely?

The Rape of Lucretia · 04-02-2017 08:29PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The funny thing is Toner was our best tackler. 14 and missed 1. Two more than Rory Best and three more than Garry Ringrose.

Some strange stats from today really.

I think what all the stats back up is that most players, and for almost all the match, did indeed play well. The couple of brainfarts, or Henshaw not slipping, Hogg not being an absolute gem, and we probably would have one.
People are being distracted by the fact that we went a long way behind early, and had a freak ****up at a lineout, and not giving enough credit to a very well organised defence by the Scots.

CMOTDibbler · 04-02-2017 08:30PM

nagdefy wrote: »

Intelligent kicking in behind to keep them honest as the saying goes but it didn't happen today. You need imagination, guys that get hands in behind defenders also and can offload like Drico etc.

That first half was the problem, mentally they weren't on their game collectively. That happens in every sport.

Yeah, but if they're up in your face quickly, there's no room to get a kick away. Stand back a bit for it and they see it coming a mile off and cover. A guy like Hogg or Laidlaw would be wise to that. The only real option is a grubber, but they have such a low percentage of success that they're worse than a badly judged box-kick.

Rightwing · 04-02-2017 08:32PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I think that's a bit harsh. SOB definitely had a good game, especially carrying where he had two clean breaks and beat four defenders. Stander was heavily marked and had 24 carries for 43 metres. Heaslip had 22 for 60. So to say he had a bad game is a bit harsh.

Iain Henderson had six carries for three metre for example. I would have expected a lot more from him.

Took his try well. It was the type of performance where I wouldn't single out or indeed praise any one individual. No one was great and no one was overly poor. 4/5 partnership were cleaned out though.

aled · 04-02-2017 08:34PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ah here. Since when is a crunch situation in the Six Nations the time to consider 'development'? Murray is a far superior player. Marmion will get an opportunity to start in the summer when Murray is on the Lions. Happy?

Thomond I hugely blame Joe for this. He figured he could walk his team over the line. He was absolutely wrong. I do not blame any player for this.

nagdefy · 04-02-2017 08:35PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Took his try well. It was the type of performance where I wouldn't single out or indeed praise any one individual. No one was great and no one was overly poor. 4/5 partnership were cleaned out though.

And all the talk about the Grays not being international standard from certain parts of the print media. Though one swallow never made a summer..see how they fare throughout the championship.

.ak · 04-02-2017 08:35PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I think what all the stats back up is that most players, and for almost all the match, did indeed play well. The couple of brainfarts, or Henshaw not slipping, Hogg not being an absolute gem, and we probably would have one.
People are being distracted by the fact that we went a long way behind early, and had a freak ****up at a lineout, and not giving enough credit to a very well organised defence by the Scots.

For me we lost the game in the prep. We weren't well enough prepared. The major thing though was defence. We do our centres keep coming up hard, stopping and defending outside in? That to me screams that they're been training with a team running hard at them off first phase ball. Why did we expect that from Scotland with such pace out wide? Same issue against Argentina.

Is that Farrell's fault, or Schmidt's, or the players on the pitch?

I know one player isn't being talked about here and I'm surprised; Jarred Payne. Badly missed today. That 2nd try wouldn't have happened if he was on the field.

thomond2006 · 04-02-2017 08:35PM

aled wrote: »

Thomond I hugely blame Joe for this. He figured he could walk his team over the line. He was absolutely wrong. I do not blame any player for this.

Answer what I said or I'm done with you.

The Rape of Lucretia · 04-02-2017 08:35PM

aled wrote: »

And there you go. How can we possibly develop with such an attitude, which in truth Joe subscribes to

What do you mean here ?????

Of course the best way to develop is to play they best players available to you. And Murray is a wolrld level player.

What are you suggesting, the best way to improve is to select your second string ??? Nonsense. I feel I am being trolled.

CMOTDibbler · 04-02-2017 08:35PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Took his try well. It was the type of performance where I wouldn't single out or indeed praise any one individual. No one was great and no one was overly poor. 4/5 partnership were cleaned out though.

Yeah, you're probably right. If I was going to criticise the lineout though, I'd like to know exactly where it failed. Or was it just the fact that the Grays are the only real competitors in the lighthouse bracket?

We showed no variation there either. There was a time when Plumtree was forwards coach that we were really being inventive there.

Del.Monte · 04-02-2017 08:37PM

aled wrote: »

Thomond I hugely blame Joe for this. He figured he could walk his team over the line. He was absolutely wrong. I do not blame any player for this.

Some of the 'rugby bandwagon' media thought that, but anybody with half a brain knew that Scotland have been improving for a good while now and home advantage was going to be massive. I did anyway.

swiwi_ · 04-02-2017 08:39PM

nagdefy wrote: »

And all the talk about the Grays not being international standard from certain parts of the print media. Though one swallow never made a summer..see how they fare throughout the championship.

Buer posted once that one swallow made his summer.

.ak · 04-02-2017 08:41PM

aled wrote: »

Thomond I hugely blame Joe for this. He figured he could walk his team over the line. He was absolutely wrong. I do not blame any player for this.

That's convenient.

Wang Kerr · 04-02-2017 08:41PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Buer posted once that one swallow made his summer.

Can we leave his personal life out of it and get back to the rugby?

Tim Robbins · 04-02-2017 08:44PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's very hard to pinpoint lineout problems. So many moving parts. You've the hooker, the jumper and the lifters. Then you've all the movement to confuse the opposition. I don't really know which element failed us today, but to be fair, the Grays are probably the biggest guys in the 6N bar Toner, so always likely to compete strongly.

Henderson, don't know what was up with him really. He might have been doing a lot of the unseen work that you only notice when somebody compiles stats on rucks. Maybe we're being unfair there.

You are also supposed to have a good gap. Some refs stricter than others on enforcing that. ditto offside line at ruck. I thought Roman let a bit go today.

I thought where the scots killed us though a lot of the time we were just using one out runners who invariably took just a one out pass and took it statically. The scots usually rushed up with two tacklers and one the collision. If you are to play this way why not have at least a leech ready beside ball carrier? Ultimately think we underestimated the Scots who are improving and at home.

Rightwing · 04-02-2017 08:44PM

nagdefy wrote: »

And all the talk about the Grays not being international standard from certain parts of the print media. Though one swallow never made a summer..see how they fare throughout the championship.

I thought R Gray was impressive today in particular.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yeah, you're probably right. If I was going to criticise the lineout though, I'd like to know exactly where it failed. Or was it just the fact that the Grays ared the only real competitors in the lighthouse bracket?

We showed no variation there either. There was a time when Plumtree was forwards coach that we were really being inventive there.

R Best would also have to take blame re lineout. Scots 3rd try was laughable. How did no one notice the spare man?

Mahatma Geansai · 04-02-2017 08:46PM

We've missed Payne today. Ringrose will be a great player but we are going to struggle with him at 13 for the championship. He was at sea defensively in the first half. The first two tries wouldn't have been scored so easily had the likes of Payne been playing in his place.

I struggle to understand the criticism of Jackson. I thought he had a good game on first watch.

As I predicted before the game, the lineout struggled. We need more options there.

All that said, the biggest difference between the sides on the day was the coaching. We didn't look well coached out there.

CMOTDibbler · 04-02-2017 08:48PM

Rightwing wrote: »

R Best would also have to take blame re lineout. Scots 3rd try was laughable. How did no one notice the spare man?

Joe will be having them all practicing counting to 15.

It's not just the forwards though. You should have somebody in the backs looking at their formation and figuring out how they're going to use the ball. You'd think somebody like BOD or Jonny Sexton would have noticed that an inside centre was missing.

nagdefy · 04-02-2017 08:49PM

We have to treat 'the two imposters' of victory and defeat the same. We're not as good as we thought or as bad as we feel we are this evening.

One thing has struck me though about our back 3, while individually they are all fine and international standard, none of them would put 'the fear of Gawd' in you pace wise or in doing something extra special. We don't have a Stuart Hogg. Not since Tommy Bowe was in his prime have we had such a speedster. Or back to the likes of Denis Hickey and Simon Geoghegan. While Keith Earls has pace and had a fine game today, for me he's just lacking a little bit of physicality required to be world class. Denis Hickey had his problems in that department too, especially against Stefan Terblanche and the boks in 1998. But he bulked up a little by 2000 and the game hadn't giant wings, bar Jonah, then.

Realistically the other wingers and Tiernan O'Halloran aren't any better at the moment but maybe they do need to be given more game time. What would be wrong with putting O'Halloran in fullback against Italy?

The Rape of Lucretia · 04-02-2017 08:50PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Scots 3rd try was laughable. How did no one notice the spare man?

I think people are being far too wise after the event on this one. Like any clever dummy, it looks stupid in hinsight to have been so well hoodwinked. I woukd give great credit to Cotter for this one, and to the players for pulling it off to perfection. Each forward focused on his own man. A system failure was spotted and exploited.
If such a move had been made by Ireland to pull the game out of the fire, people would have been lauding Joe to the heavens as the geatest rugby brain ever.

Mahatma Geansai · 04-02-2017 08:52PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I think people are being far too wise after the event on this one. Like any clever dummy, it looks stupid in hinsight to have been so well hoodwinked. I woukd give great credit to Cotter for this one, and to the players for pulling it off to perfection. Each forward focused on his own man. A system failure was spotted and exploited.
If such a move had been made by Ireland to pull the game out of the fire, people would have been lauding Joe to the heavens as the geatest rugby brain ever.

But as it happened, our coaches were made look the fool. Hard to give them anything more than a 3 out of 10.

Scotland vs Ireland, 4th Feb 2017, Murrayfield, 2:25, RTÉ 2

Comments