Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Chivito550 · 01-12-2016 10:20pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Many of Dublin's streets/roads are old and don't have room for cycling - we'd be doing well to fit quality public transport infrastructure along with adequate pedestrian space - after all that, cars still need to be considered even if it is the bare minimum. If people want to cycle to work, we will need to build additional new towns (complete with CBDs) using a Dutch style planning approach. Also, most traffic lanes should be 3.5m - that's what a single tram line takes and what a bus needs - this would also make a future road conversion to tram use much easier.

Amsterdam is old and has narrow streets.

Middle Man · 01-12-2016 10:21pm

Deedsie wrote: »

I don't really care what your personal opinion is same as you don't care what mine is. Amsterdam rolled back the clock, London rolled back the clock, Copenhagen rolled back the clock. Good willing, so will Dublin.

Thankfully Dublin City council are slowly but surely improving things for pedestrians, cyclists (most pleasant), public transport users ahead of single occupant private car commuters.

Out of curiosity which aspects of cycling are less efficient than walking, rail use or motoring? I'm worried I'm missing out on something.

We will also have laid >40km of tram lines in Dublin in the last 12 years after tearing them all up over the 20th century. Maybe we can roll back the clock.

Dublin Tramways were 97 km at their peak. So metro North and DART Underground will have that clock rolled right back.

A combined health and transport investment in cycling infrastructure and Dublin will be motoring again.

First of all - cycling is IMO just a fad and will largely go the way of men's skinny jeans by the mid 2020's - you know the saying 'hills are green when they're far away...' and given that many Irish people are prone to the herd mentality in fashion and lifestyle, the herding effect will only last for a time after which they will probably come to their senses when the cycling experience turns out to be not so wonderful (more on that later) and realise that this whole cycling ruse is simply an excuse for the government to do just the bare minimum when it comes to serious rail investment and public transport!

Regarding trams, the Luas (as you know quite well) is quite a different ballgame when compared to the old trams - a close old relative described them as bone rattlers in their day - this of course would be quite unlike their modern counterparts. As more Luas lines are rolled out, cycling is going to have to cede more ground as will motoring - pedestrians however will reap the secondary benefits and rightly so. Also, a Luas ride is comfortable and modern - cycling IMO is not. Also, another very modern approach to transport problems would be to make the property system much more flexible and competitive so that people can move much close to their places of work or at least a rail station - not the current nonsense of people having to move up to 80km away because house prices/rents are massively inflated in areas in/near Dublin or even near a commuter line.

When it comes to London, they have invested heavily in rail - Victoria Line in the 1960/70's, Jubilee Line by the 1990's, Docklands Light Rail 1980's - 2000's, London Overground 2000/10's, Croydon Tramlink 2000's and Elizabeth (Crossrail) Line due 2018/2019 - yeah, that's really turning back the clock isn't it - some of the tube trains arrive every 2-3 minutes at peak times and the Elizabeth Line will include platform screening (as does the new sections of the Jubilee Line) - really old fashioned isn't it. Oh and there's the Thameslink expansion programme (involving 12 car trains) in London too. Oh, and they're planning on building a new twin road tunnel beneath the Thames too.

Back to cycling - when people realise how cumbersome it is, I guess many will reconsider if it is a mode suitable for commuting at all - wind load, packing (quite a pain in the neck), unpacking, mounting/locking a bike etc (been there, done that) - that is on top of all the extra food, showers, clothing and laundry that will be involved - yes, not quite as green as you think - oh there's weather considerations too and it's not rain (only 8% if even that), but frost and ice. If motorists have to thread carefully, then I guess cyclists may forget the trip altogether as there's no protection against skidding whatsoever. Also, if Copenhagen is anything to go by, expect more angry pedestrians as MAMILs tear along the footpaths causing outrage in the city. I myself would rather walk!

Chivito550 · 01-12-2016 10:31pm

Middle Man wrote: »

First of all - cycling is IMO just a fad and will largely go the way of men's skinny jeans by the mid 2020's - you know the saying 'hills are green when they're far away...' and given that many Irish people are prone to the herd mentality in fashion and lifestyle, the herding effect will only last for a time after which they will probably come to their senses when the cycling experience turns out to be not so wonderful (more on that later) and realise that this whole cycling ruse is simply an excuse for the government to do just the bare minimum when it comes to serious rail investment and public transport!

Regarding trams, the Luas (as you know quite well) is quite a different ballgame when compared to the old trams - a close old relative described them as bone rattlers in their day - this of course would be quite unlike their modern counterparts. As more Luas lines are rolled out, cycling is going to have to cede more ground as will motoring - pedestrians however will reap the secondary benefits and rightly so. Also, a Luas ride is comfortable and modern - cycling IMO is not. Also, another very modern approach to transport problems would be to make the property system much more flexible and competitive so that people can move much close to their places of work or at least a rail station - not the current nonsense of people having to move up to 80km away because house prices/rents are massively inflated in areas in/near Dublin or even near a commuter line.

When it comes to London, they have invested heavily in rail - Victoria Line in the 1960/70's, Jubilee Line by the 1990's, Docklands Light Rail 1980's - 2000's, London Overground 2000/10's, Croydon Tramlink 2000's and Elizabeth (Crossrail) Line due 2018/2019 - yeah, that's really turning back the clock isn't it - some of the tube trains arrive every 2-3 minutes at peak times and the Elizabeth Line will include platform screening (as does the new sections of the Jubilee Line) - really old fashioned isn't it. Oh and there's the Thameslink expansion programme (involving 12 car trains) in London too. Oh, and they're planning on building a new twin road tunnel beneath the Thames too.

Back to cycling - when people realise how cumbersome it is, I guess many will reconsider if it is a mode suitable for commuting at all - wind load, packing (quite a pain in the neck), unpacking, mounting/locking a bike etc (been there, done that) - that is on top of all the extra food, showers, clothing and laundry that will be involved - yes, not quite as green as you think - oh there's weather considerations too and it's not rain (only 8% if even that), but frost and ice. If motorists have to thread carefully, then I guess cyclists may forget the trip altogether as there's no protection against skidding whatsoever. Also, if Copenhagen is anything to go by, expect more angry pedestrians as MAMILs tear along the footpaths causing outrage in the city. I myself would rather walk!

A fad? Seems like a long term fad in the Netherlands so. Everything you described about cycling is not true if you have ever actually cycled around Amsterdam. It is by far the easiest and most comfortable way to get around the city. I say this as somebody who does not cycle during my day to day life in Dublin. The set up in the Netherlands is a dream.

Your comment on trams is not true. Melbourne's trams are as old as the old Dublin trams. They retained them, slowly upgraded them, slowly expanded the network, got faster trams etc, and now they have a modern system build on an old network. That could have been Dublin. If only.

LeinsterDub · 01-12-2016 10:39pm

Cycling a 150 year long fad. You mark my words by 2025 they'll have cancelled the Tour De France due to lack of riders

MJohnston · 01-12-2016 10:45pm

Private car ownership will very soon be a fad that'll end tbh

Middle Man · 01-12-2016 10:46pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

A fad? Seems like a long term fad in the Netherlands so. Everything you described about cycling is not true if you have ever actually cycled around Amsterdam. It is by far the easiest and most comfortable way to get around the city. I say this as somebody who does not cycle during my day to day life in Dublin. The set up in the Netherlands is a dream.

Your comment on trams is not true. Melbourne's trams are as old as the old Dublin trams. They retained them, slowly upgraded them, slowly expanded the network, got faster trams etc, and now they have a modern system build on an old network. That could have been Dublin. If only.

This is not the Netherlands - our urban areas (particularly of the 20th century) are badly designed at best and haphazard at worst. Many videos of Dutch cycling shows ample room for both decent roads and high spec cycle facilities. Here, we have only room for proper motor/tram and pedestrian facilities at best and just pedestrians at worst, in which case the traffic squeezes through anyway. If people really want to cycle and it takes off proving me wrong, then new urban centres designed to Dutch standards are required.

About trams, you do realise that the Luas tracks are built upon a reinforced concrete bed which is aligned and levelled using modern techniques. I doubt that the ride in Melbourne is all that comfortable when compared to the Luas system - that's unless the old infrastructure has been torn out and completely replaced with Luas style construction - that IMO would be new infrastructure.

Middle Man · 01-12-2016 10:51pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Private car ownership will very soon be a fad that'll end tbh

It might end by way of our economy collapsing unless we get up off our lazy butts and get on with building the railway - we need the DART Inter-connector now and no shortcuts!

That's for starters!

Middle Man · 01-12-2016 10:54pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Cycling a 150 year long fad. You mark my words by 2025 they'll have cancelled the Tour De France due to lack of riders

I'm not talking about cycling in the context of sport and leisure - I'm talking about cycling as a commuting mode in the absence of major structural changes (large scale demolition) being made to our urban areas.

LeinsterDub · 01-12-2016 11:26pm

Middle Man wrote: »

I'm not talking about cycling in the context of sport and leisure - I'm talking about cycling as a commuting mode in the absence of major structural changes (large scale demolition) being made to our urban areas.

Yup because of all the modes of transport cycling is the one most likely to require large scale demolition.

Sam Russell · 01-12-2016 11:51pm

Mod: @ Middle Man

Less of the trolling and taking the thread off topic. Cycling is nothing to do with the BXD line and going on a rant about it is not a good idea..

Cycling is not relevant to this thread. You cannot even take your bike on the tram.

marno21 · 21-12-2016 5:56pm

From the TII.

LeinsterDub · 21-12-2016 7:33pm

"Be Track Aware" aka painted some signs of a guy falling off their bike on the ground and a few signs. Great work lads

Chivito550 · 12-01-2017 6:10pm

Just came across this article from 2000:

https://www.rte.ie/amp/5423/

Oh what could have been! Where did it all go wrong!

Idbatterim · 12-01-2017 6:28pm

300,000,000 pound. Far better value for money than the crap we have gotten for €370,000,000

MJohnston · 12-01-2017 6:31pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

300,000,000 pound. Far better value for money than the crap we have gotten for €370,000,000

Equating 2000 currency with today's is a fools game tbf

jamo2oo9 · 12-01-2017 6:38pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just came across this article from 2000:

https://www.rte.ie/amp/5423/

Oh what could have been! Where did it all go wrong!

Any idea why that didn't go ahead?

serfboard · 12-01-2017 6:43pm

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Any idea why that didn't go ahead?

Because Mary O'Rourke was the minister?

As someone said, Mary was always "one more report away from making a decision".

Lack of money might have been another reason ...

MJohnston · 12-01-2017 6:50pm

2001 mini-recession probably?

Chivito550 · 12-01-2017 7:02pm

Going underground from Stephens Green would be a bit messy. Somewhere like between Beechwood and Ranelagh would make more sense. Would cost more of course. But imagine all the drunken idiots stumbling into the tunnel "for the craic" around Stephens Green area.

GerardKeating · 12-01-2017 7:13pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

300,000,000 pound. Far better value for money than the crap we have gotten for €370,000,000

But that was only the Green to O'Connell St, the current Cross city line goes a little further.

Chivito550 · 12-01-2017 9:28pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

But that was only the Green to O'Connell St, the current Cross city line goes a little further.

The article said the tunnel would go to Broadstone. I'd assume they wouldn't just terminate the line at the end of the tunnel.

AngryLips · 12-01-2017 9:33pm

An assessment at the time found that going underground would not increase capacity at all for the route. That, along with the much higher cost, was enough to kill it. Rightly so.

monument · 12-01-2017 10:02pm

AngryLips wrote: »

An assessment at the time found that going underground would not increase capacity at all for the route. That, along with the much higher cost, was enough to kill it. Rightly so.

Going be underground would likely only make sense as part of (1) from Broadstone to somewhere like Milltown and (2) upgrading the green line south of that and (3) going to Finglas and/or Blanch etc beyond Broombridge.

If the tunnel was done today you could keep the surface tram line in the city centre and have a two or three stop underground express line serving mostly slightly different areas -- something like a stop in Rathmines, SSG and on Jervis Street.

Idbatterim · 13-01-2017 1:48am

AngryLips wrote: »

An assessment at the time found that going underground would not increase capacity at all for the route. That, along with the much higher cost, was enough to kill it. Rightly so.

it would have increased the glacially slow travel time, the ripping up of the city centre to that extent and a lot of road space wouldn't have been lost...

Jamie2k9 · 13-01-2017 2:21am

Anyone know when traffic be allowed tail gate trams up O'Connell street when it's opened. Given it's just plain tar put down I assume so?

markpb · 13-01-2017 8:28pm

Jamie2k9 wrote:

Anyone know when traffic be allowed tail gate trams up O'Connell street when it's opened. Given it's just plain tar put down I assume so?

No left turn from Bachelor's walk and no right turn from Burgh Quay would stop that.

cgcsb · 13-01-2017 10:04pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Many videos of Dutch cycling shows ample room for both decent roads and high spec cycle facilities.

Pretty silly statement really. Cars were simply banned from most of Amsterdam's streets, which are very narrow,in the mid-late 20th century and replaced with two way cycle lanes. Cars only remain on a handful of wide roads that were laid out after the war.

Jamie2k9 · 14-01-2017 2:46am

markpb wrote: »

No left turn from Bachelor's walk and no right turn from Burgh Quay would stop that.

Yes I'm aware it would but I assume you don't know if that will happen/

Going to assume it will be allowed considering the tracking has not been done like Abbey St for example.

zom · 18-01-2017 10:11pm

Did anyone came across plans for new extanded platforms for Green Line? I only see informations about new Luas trams to be ordered (Citadis 502 instead of 402 - 54m instead of 43m) but can't see any plans anywhere (thou seen builders at Harcourt Luas stop) ?

Idbatterim · 18-01-2017 11:10pm

They have started working on extending them...

serfboard · 24-01-2017 6:53pm

zom wrote: »

I only see informations about new Luas trams to be ordered (Citadis 502 instead of 402 - 54m instead of 43m)

I didn't hear anything about this and decided to Google it. I got:

IRRS wrote:

On 25 November Transport Infrastructure Ireland placed an order valued at €36.5m with Alstom Transport for the supply of seven new “Citadis 502” trams. The new trams will be ... 54.6m long and cater for 60 additional passengers per tram, giving a total capacity of 369 ... There will be ... eight double-leaf doors on each side plus two single leaf on each side.

370 passengers per tram is quite impressive.

Chivito550 · 24-01-2017 7:54pm

"While the platform lengths on Luas Cross City are designed to accommodate the longer trams, the Green Line platforms between St. Stephen’s Green and Sandyford will be lengthened. The first Citadis 502 is due to be delivered in October 2017. "

So Brides Glen services won't be able to avail of the larger trams?

LXFlyer · 24-01-2017 8:13pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

"While the platform lengths on Luas Cross City are designed to accommodate the longer trams, the Green Line platforms between St. Stephen’s Green and Sandyford will be lengthened. The first Citadis 502 is due to be delivered in October 2017. "

So Brides Glen services won't be able to avail of the larger trams?

You're wrong. The platforms on the Brides Glen election are already lengthened as they were built to accommodate longer trams.

If you had bothered to look you'd know this, instead you post completely inaccurate information.

Stephen15 · 24-01-2017 8:20pm

Other being longer are the new trams going to be an updated spec of the current trams or are they going to be just the same as what we have but longer.

Jamie2k9 · 24-01-2017 8:30pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Other being longer are the new trams going to be an updated spec of the current trams or are they going to be just the same as what we have but longer.

Same, what updating is needed?

Chivito550 · 24-01-2017 9:50pm

lxflyer wrote: »

You're wrong. The platforms on the Brides Glen election are already lengthened as they were built to accommodate longer trams.

If you had bothered to look you'd know this, instead you post completely inaccurate information.

You're moody as usual.

I didn't post inaccurate info. I asked a question, hence the question mark.

But don't let that get in the way of an opportunity to blow off some steam.

LXFlyer · 24-01-2017 10:20pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

You're moody as usual.

I didn't post inaccurate info. I asked a question, hence the question mark.

But don't let that get in the way of an opportunity to blow off some steam.

What's with the "as usual"? I think that's completely unnecessary.

I think that you're assuming an awful lot about me in your first statement and I'd appreciate it if you didn't focus on me.

It came across to me that you were making a statement - I corrected it.

The notion that the line would be operated by different sized trams, half of which couldn't serve half the line would mean that operational flexiblility would be completely impossible. It's a non-starter.

At least think things through or go and have a look at the physical infrastructure.

Chivito550 · 24-01-2017 10:48pm

lxflyer wrote: »

What's with the "as usual"? I think that's completely unnecessary.

I think that you're assuming an awful lot about me in your first statement and I'd appreciate it if you didn't focus on me.

It came across to me that you were making a statement - I corrected it.

The notion that the line would be operated by different sized trams, half of which couldn't serve half the line would mean that operational flexiblility would be completely impossible. It's a non-starter.

At least think things through or go and have a look at the physical infrastructure.

You need to chill. I asked a question. What I got from you was a lecture, not an answer,

spacetweek · 24-01-2017 11:17pm

Can everyone please refrain from slagging each other.
Let's play the ball not the man.

Stephen15 · 25-01-2017 12:22am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Same, what updating is needed?

No I just alstom might have released a newer model of citadis since last batch were delivered

Peregrine · 25-01-2017 1:33am

Stephen15 wrote: »

No I just alstom might have released a newer model of citadis since last batch were delivered

Tram designs don't really change that often, to be honest. They'll be nearly identical bar the apparent length difference.

cormac616 · 25-01-2017 2:00am

Walked from Trinity to Stephens green yesterday and i was glad to see that they've started putting up the timeboards. Trinity stop is pretty much done too.

I took some pictures but can't post them cause i am a new user...

Also i noticed that they are continuing the tracks past Dawson street on Stephens green. Does anyone know what that is for? The alignment drawings say its a "Tram Arrester" whatever that is.

Jamie2k9 · 25-01-2017 2:05am

cormac616 wrote: »

Walked from Trinity to Stephens green yesterday and i was glad to see that they've started putting up the timeboards. Trinity stop is pretty much done too.

I took some pictures but can't post them cause i am a new user...

Also i noticed that they are continuing the tracks past Dawson street on Stephens green. Does anyone know what that is for? The alignment drawings say its a "Tram Arrester" whatever that is.

Siding to hold a tram if required and allow reversing take place.

Peregrine · 25-01-2017 2:13am

cormac616 wrote: »

Walked from Trinity to Stephens green yesterday and i was glad to see that they've started putting up the timeboards. Trinity stop is pretty much done too.

I took some pictures but can't post them cause i am a new user...

Also i noticed that they are continuing the tracks past Dawson street on Stephens green. Does anyone know what that is for? The alignment drawings say its a "Tram Arrester" whatever that is.

It's a turnback/shunt area.

Edit:

Currently trams on the Luas Green Line use the existing crossover on St. Stephen’s Green West to turn back into service on reaching the terminus stop. Under the proposed scheme it would no longer be possible to use this crossover without impeding operations. Furthermore the proposed scheme will require the removal of the existing tram run-out area immediately north of the existing St. Stephen’s Green Stop which also caters for failed trams. To replace this facility, a connection will be provided into a single track shunt area east of the Dawson Street junction and on the south side of St. Stephen’s Green North. This shunt area will permit operational flexibility in offering the ability, as circumstances may dictate, to turn back trams from the extended Luas Green Line and in addition provide a refuge for a failed tram, the only such refuge between the depots at Sandyford and what is proposed at Broombridge. The ability to provide for this facility between Dawson Street and College Green was discounted due to conflict with road vehicles which would arise in a shared running environment

From the railway order inspector's report.
http://www.pleanala.ie/news/NA0004/RNA0004.pdf

riadach · 01-02-2017 12:18pm

In the allignment drawings there was supposed to be a small spur emerging across from Trinity to future-proof Line F.

Has this been installed?

LeinsterDub · 01-02-2017 1:15pm

https://www.thesun.ie/news/507909/furious-dublin-cafe-owner-claims-luas-works-are-crippling-his-city-centre-business-nearly-three-years-on-from-when-it-began/

Ranting shop owner complains about works being on schedule

MJohnston · 01-02-2017 1:41pm

In fairness, 147 does absolutely superb sandwiches and other food, really great place that is way above the quality of most other establishments on Parnell Street. Hopefully the works can finish up before they're significantly impacted.

serfboard · 01-02-2017 3:02pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.thesun.ie/news/507909/furious-dublin-cafe-owner-claims-luas-works-are-crippling-his-city-centre-business-nearly-three-years-on-from-when-it-began/

Ranting shop owner complains about works being on schedule

“I worked on construction in New York and they would mill into the work.

“This is typically Irish. They must have filled in and dug up that same hole about ten times.

“They seemed to finish the track outside my door, but then returned this week to rip it up after noticing a ‘mistake’.”

Obviously there are no mistakes made in construction in New York :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub · 01-02-2017 4:11pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Hopefully the works can finish up before they're significantly impacted.

The works he knew of in advance of setting up his business and will bring thousands of people past his door daily when completed?

Those works?

MJohnston · 01-02-2017 4:58pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The works he knew of in advance of setting up his business and will bring thousands of people past his door daily when completed?

Those works?

Ah stop looking for an argument, I'm just trying to look at it from both perspectives, instead of moaning about moaning.

Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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