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Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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    #2042
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Handy for the IFSC though
    Is it? IFSC is served quite well by Rail/DART and Luas. If you really want to get from Phibsboro to IFSC, I suppose it's potentially easier than getting the bus... I will also admit that it'll be a major boost from SSG to IFSC.


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    #2043
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Is it? IFSC is served quite well by Rail/DART and Luas. If you really want to get from Phibsboro to IFSC, I suppose it's potentially easier than getting the bus... I will also admit that it'll be a major boost from SSG to IFSC.

    from both SSG and Phibsboro to the IFSC you'll probably be quicker walking, you'll definitely be quicker cycling.


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    #2044
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    loyatemu wrote: »
    from both SSG and Phibsboro to the IFSC you'll probably be quicker walking, you'll definitely be quicker cycling.

    Not necessarily though, they'll be getting off at Marborough St so the LUAS would only have Broadstone, Dominick St and Parnell St to navigate through.


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    #2045
    ongarboy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ongarboy


    loyatemu wrote: »
    from both SSG and Phibsboro to the IFSC you'll probably be quicker walking, you'll definitely be quicker cycling.

    Walked every day for 5 years from Phibsboro to IFSC and it took half an hour. The rare time I got a bus, I could sometimes be waiting 20 minutes to get on a 10 bus that then spent another 10 minutes queuing from St Peter's Church to Doyles Corner...still in Phibsboro.:eek::eek::eek: It will be interesting to see how fast a Luas from Phibsboro will get you to the IFSC whether you change trams at Abbey Street or not.


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    #2046
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    loyatemu wrote: »
    from both SSG and Phibsboro to the IFSC you'll probably be quicker walking, you'll definitely be quicker cycling.

    Anywhere south of ssg has no link


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    #2047
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Luas Cross City - IrishCycle.com are complaining - is there anything new?

    Some comments mention about how expensive tram lines are and that cycling should be considered instead. I gave out hell when the National Cycle Manual advised removing left turn lanes and slips for motor traffic and ranted that cyclists were never happy - next they'd want the Luas gone etc. Shortly afterwards, I felt I was just letting off a bit of steam, but now it is a case of cyclist sentiment turning against the Luas - maybe I was right in some respect.

    See www.irishcycle.com/2016/10/10 - second article on page.


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    #2048
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Middle Man wrote: »
    Luas Cross City - IrishCycle.com are complaining - is there anything new?

    Some comments mention about how expensive tram lines are and that cycling should be considered instead. I gave out hell when the National Cycle Manual advised removing left turn lanes and slips for motor traffic and ranted that cyclists were never happy - next they'd want the Luas gone etc. Shortly afterwards, I felt I was just letting off a bit of steam, but now it is a case of cyclist sentiment turning against the Luas - maybe I was right in some respect.

    See www.irishcycle.com/2016/10/10 - second article on page.

    10 or 11 cyclists killed on our roads so far this year. Most due to being crushed by left turning vehicles. Well as a cycling group are they not entitled to highlight cycling concerns? Councils sure don't listen as all we ever receive is rubbish cycling infrastructure that is not fit for purpose. Do you think cyclists are on the main road for the laugh?

    All cyclist are in favour of public transport, including the Luas. They are not in favour of potential dangers that have not brought their concerns to the planning table.
    Many of Dublin's streets/roads are old and don't have room for cycling - we'd be doing well to fit quality public transport infrastructure along with adequate pedestrian space - after all that, cars still need to be considered even if it is the bare minimum. If people want to cycle to work, we will need to build additional new towns (complete with CBDs) using a Dutch style planning approach. Also, most traffic lanes should be 3.5m - that's what a single tram line takes and what a bus needs - this would also make a future road conversion to tram use much easier.


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    #2049
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Luas Cross City - IrishCycle.com are complaining - is there anything new?

    Some comments mention about how expensive tram lines are and that cycling should be considered instead. I gave out hell when the National Cycle Manual advised removing left turn lanes and slips for motor traffic and ranted that cyclists were never happy - next they'd want the Luas gone etc. Shortly afterwards, I felt I was just letting off a bit of steam, but now it is a case of cyclist sentiment turning against the Luas - maybe I was right in some respect.

    See www.irishcycle.com/2016/10/10 - second article on page.

    It's not really turning against the Luas, it's highlighting this in an attempt to leverage some decent cycling infrastructure. Parnell Street was one of the last few safe and relatively calm ways to get across that part of the city (especially so heading west) and the options left now for cyclists are the Quays (terrifying) or Dorset Street/N1 (equally terrifying and also a significant increase in physical exertion required).


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    #2050
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Many of Dublin's streets/roads are old and don't have room for cycling - we'd be doing well to fit quality public transport infrastructure along with adequate pedestrian space - after all that, cars still need to be considered even if it is the bare minimum.

    ???? If you can fit a car, then you can fit four bikes. Agree that the priority should be PT and pedestrians, but after that, there really needs to be no considerations bar for emergency vehicles and deliveries.


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    #2051
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Middle Man wrote: »
    Many of Dublin's streets/roads are old and don't have room for cycling - we'd be doing well to fit quality public transport infrastructure along with adequate pedestrian space - after all that, cars still need to be considered even if it is the bare minimum. If people want to cycle to work, we will need to build additional new towns (complete with CBDs) using a Dutch style planning approach. Also, most traffic lanes should be 3.5m - that's what a single tram line takes and what a bus needs - this would also make a future road conversion to tram use much easier.

    Dublin was a harmonious cycling and tram city long before the single occupant private car was allowed to destroy Dublin's streets. Private cars are a far bigger problem than cyclists. Irish cycle are 100% in the right to advocate for cycling infrastructure.
    You can't just turn back the clock and force people to live very basic lives. I used to cycle and between walking (3km), motoring, rail use and cycling, the latter is the least efficient and as a commuting mode, very unpleasant. The car and train are my main modes for getting around and walking (much more pleasant) and swimming are my main leisure modes. As a pedestrian, the last thing I want to see are MAMILs tearing down the streets and mounting our footpaths.


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    #2052
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Many of Dublin's streets/roads are old and don't have room for cycling - we'd be doing well to fit quality public transport infrastructure along with adequate pedestrian space - after all that, cars still need to be considered even if it is the bare minimum. If people want to cycle to work, we will need to build additional new towns (complete with CBDs) using a Dutch style planning approach. Also, most traffic lanes should be 3.5m - that's what a single tram line takes and what a bus needs - this would also make a future road conversion to tram use much easier.

    Amsterdam is old and has narrow streets.


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    #2053
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Deedsie wrote: »
    I don't really care what your personal opinion is same as you don't care what mine is. Amsterdam rolled back the clock, London rolled back the clock, Copenhagen rolled back the clock. Good willing, so will Dublin.

    Thankfully Dublin City council are slowly but surely improving things for pedestrians, cyclists (most pleasant), public transport users ahead of single occupant private car commuters.

    Out of curiosity which aspects of cycling are less efficient than walking, rail use or motoring? I'm worried I'm missing out on something.

    We will also have laid >40km of tram lines in Dublin in the last 12 years after tearing them all up over the 20th century. Maybe we can roll back the clock.

    Dublin Tramways were 97 km at their peak. So metro North and DART Underground will have that clock rolled right back.

    A combined health and transport investment in cycling infrastructure and Dublin will be motoring again.

    First of all - cycling is IMO just a fad and will largely go the way of men's skinny jeans by the mid 2020's - you know the saying 'hills are green when they're far away...' and given that many Irish people are prone to the herd mentality in fashion and lifestyle, the herding effect will only last for a time after which they will probably come to their senses when the cycling experience turns out to be not so wonderful (more on that later) and realise that this whole cycling ruse is simply an excuse for the government to do just the bare minimum when it comes to serious rail investment and public transport!

    Regarding trams, the Luas (as you know quite well) is quite a different ballgame when compared to the old trams - a close old relative described them as bone rattlers in their day - this of course would be quite unlike their modern counterparts. As more Luas lines are rolled out, cycling is going to have to cede more ground as will motoring - pedestrians however will reap the secondary benefits and rightly so. Also, a Luas ride is comfortable and modern - cycling IMO is not. Also, another very modern approach to transport problems would be to make the property system much more flexible and competitive so that people can move much close to their places of work or at least a rail station - not the current nonsense of people having to move up to 80km away because house prices/rents are massively inflated in areas in/near Dublin or even near a commuter line.

    When it comes to London, they have invested heavily in rail - Victoria Line in the 1960/70's, Jubilee Line by the 1990's, Docklands Light Rail 1980's - 2000's, London Overground 2000/10's, Croydon Tramlink 2000's and Elizabeth (Crossrail) Line due 2018/2019 - yeah, that's really turning back the clock isn't it - some of the tube trains arrive every 2-3 minutes at peak times and the Elizabeth Line will include platform screening (as does the new sections of the Jubilee Line) - really old fashioned isn't it. Oh and there's the Thameslink expansion programme (involving 12 car trains) in London too. Oh, and they're planning on building a new twin road tunnel beneath the Thames too.

    Back to cycling - when people realise how cumbersome it is, I guess many will reconsider if it is a mode suitable for commuting at all - wind load, packing (quite a pain in the neck), unpacking, mounting/locking a bike etc (been there, done that) - that is on top of all the extra food, showers, clothing and laundry that will be involved - yes, not quite as green as you think - oh there's weather considerations too and it's not rain (only 8% if even that), but frost and ice. If motorists have to thread carefully, then I guess cyclists may forget the trip altogether as there's no protection against skidding whatsoever. Also, if Copenhagen is anything to go by, expect more angry pedestrians as MAMILs tear along the footpaths causing outrage in the city. I myself would rather walk!


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    #2054
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Middle Man wrote: »
    First of all - cycling is IMO just a fad and will largely go the way of men's skinny jeans by the mid 2020's - you know the saying 'hills are green when they're far away...' and given that many Irish people are prone to the herd mentality in fashion and lifestyle, the herding effect will only last for a time after which they will probably come to their senses when the cycling experience turns out to be not so wonderful (more on that later) and realise that this whole cycling ruse is simply an excuse for the government to do just the bare minimum when it comes to serious rail investment and public transport!

    Regarding trams, the Luas (as you know quite well) is quite a different ballgame when compared to the old trams - a close old relative described them as bone rattlers in their day - this of course would be quite unlike their modern counterparts. As more Luas lines are rolled out, cycling is going to have to cede more ground as will motoring - pedestrians however will reap the secondary benefits and rightly so. Also, a Luas ride is comfortable and modern - cycling IMO is not. Also, another very modern approach to transport problems would be to make the property system much more flexible and competitive so that people can move much close to their places of work or at least a rail station - not the current nonsense of people having to move up to 80km away because house prices/rents are massively inflated in areas in/near Dublin or even near a commuter line.

    When it comes to London, they have invested heavily in rail - Victoria Line in the 1960/70's, Jubilee Line by the 1990's, Docklands Light Rail 1980's - 2000's, London Overground 2000/10's, Croydon Tramlink 2000's and Elizabeth (Crossrail) Line due 2018/2019 - yeah, that's really turning back the clock isn't it - some of the tube trains arrive every 2-3 minutes at peak times and the Elizabeth Line will include platform screening (as does the new sections of the Jubilee Line) - really old fashioned isn't it. Oh and there's the Thameslink expansion programme (involving 12 car trains) in London too. Oh, and they're planning on building a new twin road tunnel beneath the Thames too.

    Back to cycling - when people realise how cumbersome it is, I guess many will reconsider if it is a mode suitable for commuting at all - wind load, packing (quite a pain in the neck), unpacking, mounting/locking a bike etc (been there, done that) - that is on top of all the extra food, showers, clothing and laundry that will be involved - yes, not quite as green as you think - oh there's weather considerations too and it's not rain (only 8% if even that), but frost and ice. If motorists have to thread carefully, then I guess cyclists may forget the trip altogether as there's no protection against skidding whatsoever. Also, if Copenhagen is anything to go by, expect more angry pedestrians as MAMILs tear along the footpaths causing outrage in the city. I myself would rather walk!

    A fad? Seems like a long term fad in the Netherlands so. Everything you described about cycling is not true if you have ever actually cycled around Amsterdam. It is by far the easiest and most comfortable way to get around the city. I say this as somebody who does not cycle during my day to day life in Dublin. The set up in the Netherlands is a dream.

    Your comment on trams is not true. Melbourne's trams are as old as the old Dublin trams. They retained them, slowly upgraded them, slowly expanded the network, got faster trams etc, and now they have a modern system build on an old network. That could have been Dublin. If only.


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    #2055
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Cycling a 150 year long fad. You mark my words by 2025 they'll have cancelled the Tour De France due to lack of riders ;)


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    #2056
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Private car ownership will very soon be a fad that'll end tbh


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    #2057
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    A fad? Seems like a long term fad in the Netherlands so. Everything you described about cycling is not true if you have ever actually cycled around Amsterdam. It is by far the easiest and most comfortable way to get around the city. I say this as somebody who does not cycle during my day to day life in Dublin. The set up in the Netherlands is a dream.

    Your comment on trams is not true. Melbourne's trams are as old as the old Dublin trams. They retained them, slowly upgraded them, slowly expanded the network, got faster trams etc, and now they have a modern system build on an old network. That could have been Dublin. If only.
    This is not the Netherlands - our urban areas (particularly of the 20th century) are badly designed at best and haphazard at worst. Many videos of Dutch cycling shows ample room for both decent roads and high spec cycle facilities. Here, we have only room for proper motor/tram and pedestrian facilities at best and just pedestrians at worst, in which case the traffic squeezes through anyway. If people really want to cycle and it takes off proving me wrong, then new urban centres designed to Dutch standards are required.

    About trams, you do realise that the Luas tracks are built upon a reinforced concrete bed which is aligned and levelled using modern techniques. I doubt that the ride in Melbourne is all that comfortable when compared to the Luas system - that's unless the old infrastructure has been torn out and completely replaced with Luas style construction - that IMO would be new infrastructure.


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    #2058
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Private car ownership will very soon be a fad that'll end tbh
    It might end by way of our economy collapsing unless we get up off our lazy butts and get on with building the railway - we need the DART Inter-connector now and no shortcuts!

    That's for starters!


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    #2059
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Cycling a 150 year long fad. You mark my words by 2025 they'll have cancelled the Tour De France due to lack of riders ;)
    I'm not talking about cycling in the context of sport and leisure - I'm talking about cycling as a commuting mode in the absence of major structural changes (large scale demolition) being made to our urban areas.


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    #2060
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Middle Man wrote: »
    I'm not talking about cycling in the context of sport and leisure - I'm talking about cycling as a commuting mode in the absence of major structural changes (large scale demolition) being made to our urban areas.

    Yup because of all the modes of transport cycling is the one most likely to require large scale demolition.


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    #2061
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: @ Middle Man

    Less of the trolling and taking the thread off topic. Cycling is nothing to do with the BXD line and going on a rant about it is not a good idea..



    Cycling is not relevant to this thread. You cannot even take your bike on the tram.


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    #2062
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    sv432awwv5g7nruaq0d1a5m0msb46a9

    From the TII.


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    #2063
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    "Be Track Aware" aka painted some signs of a guy falling off their bike on the ground and a few signs. Great work lads


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    #2064
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Just came across this article from 2000:

    https://www.rte.ie/amp/5423/

    Oh what could have been! Where did it all go wrong!


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    #2065
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    300,000,000 pound. Far better value for money than the crap we have gotten for €370,000,000


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    #2066
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    300,000,000 pound. Far better value for money than the crap we have gotten for €370,000,000

    Equating 2000 currency with today's is a fools game tbf


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    #2067
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Just came across this article from 2000:

    https://www.rte.ie/amp/5423/

    Oh what could have been! Where did it all go wrong!

    Any idea why that didn't go ahead?


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    #2068
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,680 ✭✭✭serfboard


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    Any idea why that didn't go ahead?
    Because Mary O'Rourke was the minister?

    As someone said, Mary was always "one more report away from making a decision".








    Lack of money might have been another reason ...


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    #2069
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    2001 mini-recession probably?


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    #2070
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Going underground from Stephens Green would be a bit messy. Somewhere like between Beechwood and Ranelagh would make more sense. Would cost more of course. But imagine all the drunken idiots stumbling into the tunnel "for the craic" around Stephens Green area.


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    #2071
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,564 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    300,000,000 pound. Far better value for money than the crap we have gotten for €370,000,000

    But that was only the Green to O'Connell St, the current Cross city line goes a little further.


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