Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

14-12-2016 11:27PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

Laughable. So if a bomb was made in the Republic and sent to NI then nobody in the south can possibly be blamed for it?

Do you know how many bombs were made in the south and planted in the north?
Probably most of them.
Do I think the Irish government or the Irish army or even the Irish people are to blame for them?
No
The IRA & INLA were to blame.

14-12-2016 11:29PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If Charlie Haughey and Neil Blaney or the Irish cabinet (whoever you believe) had successfully armed those under siege in Derry would you hold them responsible for what happened as a result?

The British seem to be getting a pass from you there if it turns out they colluded

Obviously if they were to blame for arming provos then those people were absolutely to blame.
Each individual should be held accountable for their actions

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2016 11:30PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Do you know how many bombs were made in the south and planted in the north?
Probably most of them.
Do I think the Irish government or the Irish army or even the Irish people are to blame for them?
No
The IRA & INLA were to blame.

Smithwick tribunal?
What else were the gardai up to?

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2016 11:32PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Obviously if they were to blame for arming provos then those people were absolutely to blame.
Each individual should be held accountable for their actions

Well either the Government tried to do it or two cabinet ministers tried to do it.

But we were not involved eh?

atticu · 14-12-2016 11:33PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Mandela was tried and imprisoned by the apartheid state he was fighting.

Like south Africa the conflict is over here. When you voted for the GFA you recognised that there was a conflict on this island that involved us all and that arrangements over acts committed during it and prisoners had been made.

Kinda silly if you were not aware that there was a possibility that prisoners north and south would be released.

First, you need to read up a little bit more of why Nelson Mandela was arrested and later put on trial.

Second, there was no war/conflict in South Africa when Nelson Mandela was arrested. There was political unrest.

Third, I never voted for the a Good Friday Agreement.

Fourth, kinda silly assumptions you made.

billy few mates · 14-12-2016 11:33PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Mandela was tried and imprisoned by the apartheid state he was fighting.

Like south Africa the conflict is over here. When you voted for the GFA you recognised that there was a conflict on this island that involved us all and that arrangements over acts committed during it and prisoners had been made.

Kinda silly if you were not aware that there was a possibility that prisoners north and south would be released.

No, while it may have 'affected' us all, it didn't 'involve' us all....

marienbad · 14-12-2016 11:34PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nice bit of self deprecation there.
The danger of it was serious enough for the British government to mention it.
I lived through the time and while young I remember the anger and tinder box atmosphere.

What if it had happened, a few thousand southern men and women( not that many really) marching in to Derry?
The British faced with a further escalation if they act violently against civilians, or alternatively an uncontrollable civil war.

Would soften your macho cough a bit trying to play that one, I think. Especially as papers show that like Thatcher later on, the British would easily have opted out of NI altogether.

We will never know, what we do know, is the Irish state ignored it's constitutional responsibility and did nothing and stood idly by while it all went up in flames anyway.

Loads of us were alive back then , doesn't give us any greater credibility .

Are you so unaware of the willingness of the British Empire to go to war at the drop of a hat ? And not care about the proportionality of the damage inflicted ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_involving_the_United_Kingdom

The Irish state didn't ignore anything , it analysed the situation and acted as best it could which was diplomatically . which is the lot of the reason of why we are where we are today. Such is the plight of small nations , spare me this blood sacfifice bs.

Itssoeasy · 14-12-2016 11:36PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Mandela was tried and imprisoned by the apartheid state he was fighting.

Like south Africa the conflict is over here. When you voted for the GFA you recognised that there was a conflict on this island that involved us all and that arrangements over acts committed during it and prisoners had been made.

Kinda silly if you were not aware that there was a possibility that prisoners north and south would be released.

Yes in the north eastern part of it known as northern island. The whole island of Ireland didn't have a conflict. In one way I admire you sticking staunchly to the position you've taken but also you can't surely belief all you're typing.

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2016 11:37PM

atticu wrote: »

First, you need to read up a little bit more of why Nelson Mandela was arrested and later put on trial.

Second, there was no war/conflict in South Africa when Nelson Mandela was arrested. There was political unrest.

Third, I never voted for the a Good Friday Agreement.

Fourth, kinda silly assumptions you made.

I assume you are a democrat (maybe you are not) WE voted for the GFA regardless of what you thought of it.

Mandela was imprisoned by the state he was fighting just like the members of the IRA were in NI.

14-12-2016 11:40PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Smithwick tribunal?
What else were the gardai up to?

What does the smithwick tribunal have to do with it?

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2016 11:45PM

billy few mates wrote: »

No, while it may have 'affected' us all, it didn't 'involve' us all....

Whether you were interested, concerned, angered, or chose to ignore it, it involved us all. When your security forces act, they act on our behalf.
WE as a country are 'involved' wherever they are involved as peacekeepers, reactionary forces, invasion forces etc

You can wash your hands, but they act in YOUR name.

Last word on this, if you cannot grasp the point then I cannot help any further.

atticu · 14-12-2016 11:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I assume you are a democrat (maybe you are not) WE voted for the GFA regardless of what you thought of it.

Mandela was imprisoned by the state he was fighting just like the members of the IRA were in NI.

Please read up a little bit more about Nelson Mandela.

I am not sure you understand what he was fighting, or 'who' he was fighting, he was not fighting a 'state'.

Itssoeasy · 14-12-2016 11:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whether you were interested, concerned, angered, or chose to ignore it, it involved us all. When your security forces act, they act on our behalf.
WE as a country are 'involved' wherever they are involved as peacekeepers, reactionary forces, invasion forces etc

You can wash your hands, but they act in YOUR name.

Last word on this, if you cannot grasp the point then I cannot help any further.

What did our security forces do ?

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2016 11:47PM

bubblypop wrote: »

What does the smithwick tribunal have to do with it?

Garda collusion in the deaths of RUC officers.

14-12-2016 11:48PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Garda collusion in the deaths of RUC officers.

And any individuals in the republic who were involved in criminal offences, no matter where they happened, should be held accountable under law.

atticu · 14-12-2016 11:50PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

What?!?! More like his country reformed.

When Nelson Mandela was arrested, he had decided that violence was the only way forward for the ANC.

He later decided to renounce violence for political gain.

marienbad · 14-12-2016 11:54PM

Adampower78 wrote: »

Exactly, they analyzed the situation looked up north and said ah jaysus lads this is brutal, the 26 counties will do.

You say that as if was an argument ?

But in a nutshell yes , what was the alternative ? 10,00 , 20,00 dead instead of 3000 ? who knows ? Para's in Dublin , loss of sovereignty , no EU , no peace process , who knows .

As I say the plight of small nations - ask Czechoslovakia , Georgia , Grenada

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2016 11:56PM

atticu wrote: »

Please read up a little bit more about Nelson Mandela.

I am not sure you understand what he was fighting, or 'who' he was fighting, he was not fighting a 'state'.

He wasn't trying to overthrow the apartheid state by engaging in acts of sabotage (which is what he went to jail for in his longest spell) then?

FrancieBrady · 15-12-2016 12:00AM

marienbad wrote: »

You say that as if was an argument ?

But in a nutshell yes , what was the alternative ? 10,00 , 20,00 dead instead of 3000 ? who knows ? Para's in Dublin , loss of sovereignty , no EU , no peace process , who knows .

As I say the plight of small nations - ask Czechoslovakia , Georgia , Grenada

Exactly, who knows what would have happened. That's what was occupying the British at the time.

We do know what did happen. By standing idly by the Irish gov created the vacumn that was filled by the IRA. Who had no interest at that point.
Tragic. And it wasn't that people in government didn't know the possibility of doing that if you read the papers released and contempory accounts.
Even more tragic. Some might say criminally irresponsible.

FrancieBrady · 15-12-2016 12:04AM

bubblypop wrote: »

And any individuals in the republic who were involved in criminal offences, no matter where they happened, should be held accountable under law.

And you get to wash your hands of any involvement?

The IRA say exactly the same thing about the killers of Brian Stack BTW. 'It was an unsanctioned act and they were disciplined as they should have been'.

Itssoeasy · 15-12-2016 12:14AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Exactly, who knows what would have happened. That's what was occupying the British at the time.

We do know what did happen. By standing idly by the Irish gov created the vacumn that was filled by the IRA. Who had no interest at that point.
Tragic. And it wasn't that people in government didn't know the possibility of doing that if you read the papers released and contempory accounts.
Even more tragic. Some might say criminally irresponsible.

I take it you're quoting jack lynch's speech ? He never said Stand idly by. He said stand by.

billy few mates · 15-12-2016 12:15AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And you get to wash your hands of any involvement?

The IRA say exactly the same thing about the killers of Brian Stack BTW. 'It was an unsanctioned act and they were disciplined as they should have been'.

No, they should be prosecuted in a court of law not 'disciplined' under some sort of Shinner 'Golf Club' rules....

FrancieBrady · 15-12-2016 12:19AM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I take it you're quoting jack lynches speech ? He never said Stand idly by. He said stand by.

True, what he did was 'stand still and do nothing'

marienbad · 15-12-2016 12:19AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Exactly, who knows what would have happened. That's what was occupying the British at the time.

We do know what did happen. By standing idly by the Irish gov created the vacumn that was filled by the IRA. Who had no interest at that point.
Tragic. And it wasn't that people in government didn't know the possibility of doing that if you read the papers released and contempory accounts.
Even more tragic. Some might say criminally irresponsible.

Again this is just more loaded baloney Francie complete with all the requisite buzzwords , 'idly' ''vacuum' 'tragic; etc .

What do we know is the British Empire had at its disposal massive military power and showed time and again they were prepared to use it . The Irish government did the best it could in the circumstances .

Now as you seem to love counter factual history so much Francie , how about we look at an alternative scenario -

The IRA didn't get involved , the NICRA continued its protests , protestant murder gangs ran amok as the police stood by , lives was lost , many lives .
The world media spotlight kicked in . night after night we had the sight of catholics beaten and murdered in streets , burned out of their houses .

How long could GB have sustained that in the eyes of the world ? How many lives would have been sacrificed - less than 3000 ? How much easier would reconciliation have been ? How long would it have lasted ? less than 30 years ? Would we have undisputed heroes and villains ? No grey areas - a horrible creation would have been exposed for the cesspit it was .

Just like the southern states in the USA .But it was not to be , so will we stick to history as it is and stop trying to what if the Republic into every PIRA fantasy

Itssoeasy · 15-12-2016 12:21AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

True, what he did was 'stand still and do nothing'

And what would he have done sending the Irish army over the border ?

15-12-2016 12:26AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And you get to wash your hands of any involvement?

The IRA say exactly the same thing about the killers of Brian Stack BTW. 'It was an unsanctioned act and they were disciplined as they should have been'.

I absolutely wash my hands of involvement. I had no act or part in any of it.
IRA said they were disciplined? I'm sorry, when did the IRA become the law of this country? It's not now, nor ever was their place to discipline anyone involved in murder, or any other criminal activity in this state.
Who do they think they are? They are not the law in the Republic.
The only ' discipline' that should be given to these offenders are given by the courts of our state.

ancapailldorcha · 15-12-2016 12:28AM

Posts by and response to rereg troll deleted.

FrancieBrady · 15-12-2016 12:32AM

marienbad wrote: »

Again this is just more loaded baloney Francie complete with all the requisite buzzwords , 'idly' ''vacuum' 'tragic; etc .

What do we know is the British Empire had at its disposal massive military power and showed time and again they were prepared to use it . The Irish government did the best it could in the circumstances .

Now as you seem to love counter factual history so much Francie , how about we look at an alternative scenario -

The IRA didn't get involved , the NICRA continued its protests , protestant murder gangs ran amok as the police stood by , lives was lost , many lives .
The world media spotlight kicked in . night after night we had the sight of catholics beaten and murdered in streets , burned out of their houses .

How long could GB have sustained that in the eyes of the world ? How many lives would have been sacrificed - less than 3000 ? How much easier would reconciliation have been ? How long would it have lasted ? less than 30 years ? Would we have undisputed heroes and villains ? No grey areas - a horrible creation would have been exposed for the cesspit it was .

Just like the southern states in the USA .But it was not to be , so will we stick to history as it is and stop trying to what if the Republic into every PIRA fantasy

One sentence pops out there. 'The world media spotlight' kicks in.
But it wouldn't have kickedin and had the same effect on the British, had they wiped out a weaker Irish force and then mowed down masses of angry civilians only interested in protecting their besieged fellow Irish men and women who had put up with years of suppression from a sectarian puppet (of the British government) state and a partisan police force which had already been seen the world over batoning and bludgeoning civil rights marchers of the streets.

If you are gonna think through scenarios apply equal weight to the implications of actions.

marienbad · 15-12-2016 12:39AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

One sentence pops out there. 'The world media spotlight' kicks in.
But it wouldn't have kickedin and had the same effect on the British, had they wiped out a weaker Irish force and then mowed down masses of angry civilians only interested in protecting their besieged fellow Irish men and women who had put up with years of suppression from a sectarian puppet (of the British government) state and a partisan police force which had already been seen the world over batoning and bludgeoning civil rights marchers of the streets.

If you are gonna think through scenarios apply equal weight to the

implications of actions.

You are missing the point Francie , YOU don't know what might have happened . And you are favouring the agguments you support . The fact is you just don't know.

That is the point of counter factual history - it is fantasy .

So lets try and deal with what actually happened shall we , more productive all round . The road less travelled and all that

FrancieBrady · 15-12-2016 12:42AM

bubblypop wrote: »

I absolutely wash my hands of involvement. I had no act or part in any of it.
IRA said they were disciplined? I'm sorry, when did the IRA become the law of this country? It's not now, nor ever was their place to discipline anyone involved in murder, or any other criminal activity in this state.
Who do they think they are? They are not the law in the Republic.
The only ' discipline' that should be given to these offenders are given by the courts of our state.

Which brings us back to the topic.

The only way the Stack family will get a chance at justice is to lobby for a process were there is full disclosure.
SF and the IRA have said that they recognise that in some instances they have to accept that justice has to be administered. I think Adams was referring to this case when he said it.

We have wasted 20 years of victims families lives with the merrygoround of parading selective victims families.
Its not working, and if your real concern is victims somebody in either government has to be brave enough to get the process moving. The one they all agreed is necessary.

Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

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