Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

K-9

Bambi wrote: »

Sometimes go over board?

It was the policy of successive governments to have their agents "go over board". And not just when dealing with the provos. Our wee state loved pulling.

Or break the law as you should call it. But the various arms of the state never worried too much about that as we've seen time and time again.

I'd like to finish by attributing some bull**** quote about "the only good child murder is a covered up one" to donegal fianna fail circles.

Not sure how I'm to reply to that last bit, seems just an angry addition.

The IRA and the Guards got on great, great respect for each other. That okay? Neither ever at a bad word for each other.

FrancieBrady

K-9 wrote: »

But as far as we know it wasn't sanctioned at Government level. There are questions about how much Lynch knew but I don't think there was any suggestion the actual Irish Government approved the importation. Basically Haughey went rogue!

K-9 wrote: »

Not sure how I'm to reply to that last bit, seems just an angry addition.

The IRA and the Guards got on great, great respect for each other. That okay? Neither ever at a bad word for each other.

Do you guys believe that we should/or need full disclosure by the way?

Is it important to find out if a plot went to cabinet level or prison officers were under instruction to use inhumane tactics?

Can you really demand full disclosure from the likes of SF and ignore other contributory factors to the deepening and development of a conflict that affected the whole island physically and mentally.

Would be interested in answers to that.

Eamondomc

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you guys believe that we should/or need full disclosure by the way?

Is it important to find out if a plot went to cabinet level or prison officers were under instruction to use inhumane tactics?

Can you really demand full disclosure from the likes of SF and ignore other contributory factors to the deepening and development of a conflict that affected the whole island physically and mentally.

Would be interested in answers to that.

You could and can. I would say there is quite a percentage of people here in the republic that were quite indifferent to the troubles other than to be abhorred at the atrocities it produced.
I think most though would like to know about the history and involvement of the people who stand for election here and think that their involvement in the atrocities that the troubles in general brought, both north and south of the border should have no consequence or need for appraisal now, whether they are from the north or south of the border.
SF is rooted in violence and while it can be argued about its justification in the north, I think most would wonder about its justification in the south!

FrancieBrady

It's

Eamondomc wrote: »

You could and can. I would say there is quite a percentage of people here in the republic that were quite indifferent to the troubles other than to be abhorred at the atrocities it produced.
I think most though would like to know about the history and involvement of the people who stand for election here and think that their involvement in the atrocities that the troubles in general brought, both north and south of the border should have no consequence or need for appraisal now, whether they are from the north or south of the border.
SF is rooted in violence and while it can be argued about its justification in the north, I think most would wonder about its justification in the south!

I think SF were just late to the party in the south, given that the southern parties were born out of violence. The archives of that conflict, which had been sealed until it's contributors were dead, had still 40 yrs to go until they were opened in 1969. That is how recent it all was.
Charlie Haughey, Neil Blaney both serving ministers, or allegedly the cabinet were behind the plot to arm combatants. Jack Lynch considered a violent invasion and Gardai and Prison Officers were encouraged and provisioned (allegedly) to violently and unlawfully overstep the mark

To be honest, it's a bit rich to be singling out one party, is it not?

You never said if you favoured full disclosure by everybody BTW.

billy few mates

billy few mates wrote: »

I'm sure the families of Private Patrick Kelly, Sgt Gerry McCabe and PO Brian Stack will take great comfort from that...

And recruit garda Gary Sheehan

FrancieBrady

bubblypop wrote: »

And recruit garda Gary Sheehan

114 people died in the south as a result of the conflict
12 of them were Gardai
1 was a prison officer

Just posting those figures for information purposes

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

And recruit garda Gary Sheehan

And inspector Sam Donegan
And garda Michael Clerkin
Gardai John Morley & Henry Byrne
Detective garda Seamus Quaid
Garda Patrick Reynolds
Detective Frank Hand
Sergeant Pat Morrissey
All killed by IRA/INLA
not to mention Adriann Donoghue and Tony Golden, both killed by dissidents.

It's almost like republicans think they were at war against the republic

Adampower78

Adampower78 wrote: »

Funny that because because the IRA had a policy that under no circumstances whatsoever can the Irish security forces be harmed, not to say some provisionals on the run didn't panic and open fire but it was a very rare occurrence.

Please check my Posts
Nor very rare at all...

Jawgap

Adampower78 wrote: »

Funny that because because the IRA had a policy that under no circumstances whatsoever can the Irish security forces be harmed, not to say some provisionals on the run didn't panic and open fire but it was a very rare occurrence.

Really? Fired in panic?

Det Garda McCabe and a colleague, Det Garda Ben O’Sullivan, were on duty escorting a post office truck during a cash delivery at Adare, Co Limerick. As the patrol car pulled up close by, a vehicle driven by members of the IRA crashed into their vehicle. Within seconds, other gang members opened fire on the patrol car. Det Garda McCabe was killed and his colleague seriously wounded.

Det Garda Hand and a colleague were on duty in an unmarked patrol car which was providing an armed escort to a post office van. As they pulled up outside the local post office to make the delivery, they were ambushed by armed members of the IRA. Gardaí and the raiders exchanged gunfire and Det Garda Hand was killed.

In November 1983, businessman Don Tidey was kidnapped by the IRA in Dublin. Following a tip-off, gardaí focused their search on the Ballinamore area of Leitrim the following month. Garda Gary Sheehan (23), a new recruit, and Pte Patrick Kelly were killed in a subsequent shoot-out.

FrancieBrady

Do you favour full disclosure Jawgap and bubblypop?

Jawgap

Adampower78 wrote: »

Who knows, it was a fair fight between Argentina and Britain and I'm sure we would have had far more sympathy than them.

Who knows?

So you think the outcome would be uncertain?

The equivalent of a light infantry brigade being sent on offensive operations against the equivalent of a mechanised division, with two battalions of infantry just off the Northern Flank mission, with total air supremacy, fast air and heli support, artillery and armour.......would have had an uncertain outcome?

Really?

Itssoeasy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We were 'involved' then.
The Irish state caused death and injury and has information. Just like all the other players.

No matter what you think, they involved themselves in the conflict and consequently have involved themselves in the solution and healing process. As this one (of many) document shows.
http://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Library3/FATRdoclaid210116_100026.pdf
Take it up with YOUR government if you have a problem with that.

No we weren't "involved" actually.
How exactly did the Irish state cause death and injury in this so called conflict Francie ? The IRA and the loyalist paramilitaries caused death and injury. The Irish army and state didn't.

But name what incidents caused death and injury that the Republic of Ireland caused as you claim. Thanks.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Who knows?

So you think the outcome would be uncertain?

The equivalent of a light infantry brigade being sent on offensive operations against the equivalent of a mechanised division, with two battalions of infantry just off the Northern Flank mission, with total air supremacy, fast air and heli support, artillery and armour.......would have had an uncertain outcome?

Really?

Completely off topic, but there was a political backdrop were the British were very afraid to enflame nationalists in the south, who knows (and they didn't) what would have happened if they wiped out and Irish battalion. The north overrun by enraged southern civilians would have been a very sticky problem for the British, who were keenly aware they would take a large share of the blame internationally.
A containment exercise and a negotiated solution was just as likely.

But we chickened out as we know and created the vacuum that the IRA filled. The rest is tragic history as we know.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you favour full disclosure Jawgap and bubblypop?

Full disclosure?
About what?
War crimes and murders/criminal offences committed in the Republic are not included in the so called 'war'
Unless of course, they were at 'war' with the Republic

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Completely off topic, but there was a political backdrop were the British were very afraid to enflame nationalists in the south, who knows (and they didn't) what would have happened if they wiped out and Irish battalion. The north overrun by enraged southern civilians would have been a very sticky problem for the British, who were keenly aware they would take a large share of the blame internationally.
A containment exercise and a negotiated solution was just as likely.

But we chickened out as we know and created the vacuum that the IRA filled.

No, North Atlantic Treaty would likely have been invoked, followed by criticism from the UN and denial of EEC membership was the more likely outcome condemning us to decades of isolation......

......and before someone gets a bit silly and mentions the US, it's worth remembering this was during the Nixon era - he didn't care about the Irish (as a West Coast politician) and the State Department was at its most Anglophilic since WW2, so unlikely to do anything except support the Brits.

Itssoeasy

bubblypop wrote: »

Full disclosure?
About what?
War crimes and murders/criminal offences committed in the Republic are not included in the so called 'war'
Unless of course, they were at 'war' with the Republic

But apparently they are part of the truth commission talked about by Sinn Fein on the tv and radio last weekend. And this despite the fact that no one can seem to work out why things that happened in the Republic are included.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Completely off topic, but there was a political backdrop were the British were very afraid to enflame nationalists in the south, who knows (and they didn't) what would have happened if they wiped out and Irish battalion. The north overrun by enraged southern civilians would have been a very sticky problem for the British, who were keenly aware they would take a large share of the blame internationally.
A containment exercise and a negotiated solution was just as likely.

But we chickened out as we know and created the vacuum that the IRA filled. The rest is tragic history as we know.

Francie this is just Rambo fantasy stuff , how you can post the above and expect to be taken seriously !

'overrun by enraged southern civilians ' - seriously .

Itssoeasy

Itssoeasy wrote: »

But apparently they are part of the truth commission talked about by Sinn Fein on the tv and radio last weekend. And this despite the fact that no one can seem to work out why things that happened in the Republic are included.

Yea, shouldn't be in my opinion.
While I understand that the republic should try and help any attempts at reconciliation, I don't believe that any offences committed in the south should be included.
I can't understand why they would be?

Adampower78

Adampower78 wrote: »

Yes individuals in the IRA murdered them just like individuals in the British army murdered people down here it doesn't they were at war with us though?

When did the British army murder people in the Republic of Ireland?

atticu

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can't get the document open to find the name of the Commission but it isn't the one you named there. It was to be modelled on the disappeared commission and had the word Recovery in it.
Information on how loved ones where killed in both jurisdictions was to be made available.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/agreement-reached-in-northern-ireland-talks-1.2047479

I accept that I didn't name them correctly, couldn't remember as it all became a dead duck very quickly when the British rowed back and said they wouldn't fully disclose after all.

So, where is this truth and reconciliation/recovery commission mentioned?

osmiumartist

bubblypop wrote: »

When did the British army murder people in the Republic of Ireland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings

atticu

weldoninhio wrote: »

Would you have hanged Nelson Mandela??

Nelson Mandela was tried for his crimes, and put in prison.
If I remember correctly, he was in prison for 27 years.

Can we put the IRA members on tried for what they did?

Or are they exempt?

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Francie this is just Rambo fantasy stuff , how you can post the above and expect to be taken seriously !

'overrun by enraged southern civilians ' - seriously .

Nice bit of self deprecation there.
The danger of it was serious enough for the British government to mention it.
I lived through the time and while young I remember the anger and tinder box atmosphere.

What if it had happened, a few thousand southern men and women( not that many really) marching in to Derry?
The British faced with a further escalation if they act violently against civilians, or alternatively an uncontrollable civil war.

Would soften your macho cough a bit trying to play that one, I think. Especially as papers show that like Thatcher later on, the British would easily have opted out of NI altogether.

We will never know, what we do know, is the Irish state ignored it's constitutional responsibility and did nothing and stood idly by while it all went up in flames anyway.

osmiumartist

bubblypop wrote: »

The British army didn't plant those bombs.
While there may be some evidence of collusion, the British army did not kill people in southern Ireland.

Laughable. So if a bomb was made in the Republic and sent to NI then nobody in the south can possibly be blamed for it?

FrancieBrady

bubblypop wrote: »

The British army didn't plant those bombs.
While there may be some evidence of collusion, the British army did not kill people in southern Ireland.

If Charlie Haughey and Neil Blaney or the Irish cabinet (whoever you believe) had successfully armed those under siege in Derry would you hold them responsible for what happened as a result?

The British seem to be getting a pass from you there if it turns out they colluded

atticu

atticu wrote: »

Nelson Mandela was tried for his crimes, and put in prison.
If I remember correctly, he was in prison for 27 years.

Can we put the IRA members on tried for what they did?

Or are they exempt?

Adampower78 wrote: »

They are exempt except for a maximum 2 year prison sentence for all crimes pre 1998.

I am sorry, but I don't understand.

Nelson Mandela was tried for what he did. He went to prison. In prison he reformed, and later went on to lead a nation.

Professor Moriarty

atticu wrote: »

Nelson Mandela was tried for his crimes, and put in prison.
If I remember correctly, he was in prison for 27 years.

Can we put the IRA members on tried for what they did?

Or are they exempt?

Drawing comparisons between Mandela and McGuinness? Martin will be pleased.

osmiumartist

atticu wrote: »

Nelson Mandela was tried for what he did. He went to prison. In prison he reformed, and later went on to lead a nation.

What?!?! More like his country reformed.

osmiumartist

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Drawing comparisons between Mandela and McGuinness? Martin will be pleased.

So would Nelson!

FrancieBrady

atticu wrote: »

I am sorry, but I don't understand.

Nelson Mandela was tried for what he did. He went to prison. In prison he reformed, and later went on to lead a nation.

Mandela was tried and imprisoned by the apartheid state he was fighting.

Like south Africa the conflict is over here. When you voted for the GFA you recognised that there was a conflict on this island that involved us all and that arrangements over acts committed during it and prisoners had been made.

Kinda silly if you were not aware that there was a possibility that prisoners north and south would be released.