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Low Breastfeeding rates linked to Catholic Guilt

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    #62
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Lucyfur wrote: »
    Low breastfeeding rates in Ireland are due to maternity wards being ridiculously understaffed and women not having help and support on tap for the first few weeks. Cos it is hard and it is painful. There's also no access to lactation consultants on the weekends.
    There are countries with a lot worse maternity services that have a lot higher breast feeding rates. Everything is blamed on health professionals but it's mosty mother's attitude and attitude of those around her that affect bf rates.

    I remember being at antenatal classes and I think I was the only one who didn't raise the hand when asked if we intend to bottle feed. I never paid any attention to baby related stuff but I do remember that when I was growing up everyone seemed to be breastfed so it didn't even occur to me you women without health complications would bottle feed.


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    #63
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users Posts: 28,395 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    My OH is currently breastfeeding our daughter and we were just talking about attitudes towards it last night. Dunno if it's Catholic guilt but there does seem to be a very dismissive and also shameful attitude towards it amongst older generations. On the other side of the coin having used formula with the first two kids there's a very condescending attitude from midwives and nurses towards those who bottle feed.

    I reckon how much hard work it is has a big impact on why people don't do it, or start off intending to do it but switch over to formula. My OH has been at it a week and it's pretty much around the clock and that can be expected for another couple of weeks, aside from being tiring it makes it very difficult to plan or do anything. And all that is without even mentioning attitudes towards breastfeeding in public.


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    #64
    Pickpocket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭Pickpocket


    FortySeven wrote: »
    She carried, birthed and fed my kids like a trooper.

    She must really miss you.


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    #65
    baldbear
    Registered Users Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭baldbear


    Lucyfur wrote: »
    Low breastfeeding rates in Ireland are due to maternity wards being ridiculously understaffed and women not having help and support on tap for the first few weeks. Cos it is hard and it is painful. There's also no access to lactation consultants on the weekends.

    That's exactly how we felt. The nurses had very little time to help & support my wife. Once baby was born & healthy they just moved on to the next mother. It's tough for 1st time mums who don't expect that lack of support.


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    #66
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    FortySeven wrote: »
    They gave a ****.

    There's many reasons women don't breastfeed. I'd hazard a guess a tiny minority don't give a whatever about the child. Breastfeeding or not does not indicate your quality as a parent. You can feed your child formula and still be a wonderful parent. It's just one tiny part of the parenting journey.


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    #67
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,739 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    In the past a lot of women stayed at home to rear the children and cook and clean.
    Times have changed.

    I was reared on formula and cows milk, I think the best is breastfeeding, but it is not suitable for a lot of women and they should not be made feel they are doing something wrong.
    Working and keeping a roof over the head of their child or children is more important and keeping the food on the table so in the grand scheme of things while breastfeeding is the optimum option, it is an option and the first few feeds of breast milk/colostrum are the most important but after that the options are there.


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    #68
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    baldbear wrote: »
    That's exactly how we felt. The nurses had very little time to help & support my wife. Once baby was born & healthy they just moved on to the next mother. It's tough for 1st time mums who don't expect that lack of support.

    Not just first time mums. I was home ten hours after the birth of my second. I hadn't breastfed my first so needed guidance but didn't get it because the other two women in the room had sections and were in a much worse state than me. Add to that my son was born in the early hours of Saturday morning and so I had to wait until the Tuesday for my first visit by a nurse and I was fighting a loosing battle.

    Breastfeeding is the most natural thing in the world but it's still a skill that needs to be taught and if you have no one around you to guide you its a massive setback.


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    #69
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users Posts: 28,395 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Breastfeeding is the most natural thing in the world but it's still a skill that needs to be taught and if you have no one around you to guide you its a massive setback.

    I think if they want to promote it they need to drop the 'most natural thing in the world' tag line. It creates the idea that it should happen automatically and makes women feel like they are failing at it if it doesn't happen instantly.


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    #70
    Lucyfur
    Registered Users Posts: 32,513 ✭✭✭✭Lucyfur


    baldbear wrote: »
    That's exactly how we felt. The nurses had very little time to help & support my wife. Once baby was born & healthy they just moved on to the next mother. It's tough for 1st time mums who don't expect that lack of support.

    Aye, I have to say I received amazing support but that was because my baby was in NICU and one of the neo nurses sat with me and taught me how to express. But only for a very passionate public health nurse and the local Le Leche League I'd have rage quit at home. I'm not a 1st time mum either!


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    #71
    GreenFolder2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭GreenFolder2


    conorhal wrote: »
    Personally I'm baffled as to what this 'Catholic guilt' is exactly and why a generation of 20-30 somethings that have never set foot in a church are suffering from it?

    I could understand my mothers generation experiencing it, women who were 'churched' after giving birth to expunge the sin of sex, but I'm pretty sure the kids today experience guilt as a failure to instantly reply to a text or associate it with unfrending somebody on facebook.

    Talk about lazy, ideologically motivated stupid peice if writing. No wonder the Times is a dying rag.

    This article comes from a piece of British research and I have found over the years they are a little fixated on associating catholic vs protestant religious denominations with particular outcomes.

    E.g. there were articles about how "catholic" countries were more likely to go into economic crisis, which blissfully ignored the fact that Austria's majority catholic, yet one of the most fiscally conservative places in the EU, same with some of the most economically strong parts of Germany, it's the largest religious grouping in Switzerland and so on.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18789154

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research

    It's a regular theme in British writing ..

    What's even more ironic, is the Church of England is probably the least theocratically 'protestant' of the protestant churches and certainly never really adopted many of the dramatically different ideologies of some of the other branches like Lutheranism, Calvinism and so on. It even defines itself as 'a catholic' church. Just not the Roman Catholic one.

    I would find it hard enough to analyse any country in the EU through the lens of religion these days, especially in western Europe. Yeah, there are a few legacy issues, Ireland being one of the more extreme examples, but for the most part they're secular, post-religious societies that just have a religion more in the background than as something that's driving government policy.

    You could talk about Ireland's Catholic background, but what I would say is more of a factor is the puritanical notions about nudity, bodies, sexuality and so on that existed in *all* English speaking countries that came out of the anglosphere origin. Every single one of them has massive hang ups about boobs, to the extent that Victorian women used to go swimming in a shed on wheels to protect their modesty ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathing_machine

    I'm not writing this to defend the Roman Catholic Church and its many, many odd issues. I'm not even Catholic myself (devout atheist) but, I think it does get rather over-criticised in aspects of the British media and academia. You have to see Ireland's history as more of a weird combination of extreme Victorian / Edwardian Puritanism and obsessions with respectability combined with catholicism. If anything, it's an extremely British form of Catholicism which got somehow wrapped in a republican flag.

    We're really only figuring out what being an Irish Republic is in recent years.


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    #72
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,185 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    As a parent, I can tell you that low breastfeeding rates have nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

    Laziness / difficult / bottle is convenient - these are the reasons.

    It can be difficult to get the baby to latch on.


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    #73
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,185 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    seamus wrote: »

    The overall attitude towards breastfeeding is pretty poor in Ireland. I've heard a number of woman make "yuck" faces when it's discussed, and heard others outright say that it's disgusting. Convenience of bottles is a huge factor, but there's a significant cohort of Irish people who are still more conservative about anything to do with nudity than we'd like to believe.

    I believe you, but at the same time I find it hard to accept there are so many stupid people around.

    What do they think breasts are for?

    It's totally normal and natural.

    Why would a mother think like that?


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    #74
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,185 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    pwurple wrote: »
    The irish times would say the catholics are responsible for rain on their picnic at this stage.

    The position of the catholic church is pro-breastfeeding, in churches, and anywhere else. I was born in a catholic hospital, and was breastfed. Th nuns were almost militantly pro-breastfeeding apparantly. "What do you think they are for".

    Very good post.


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    #75
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Mass extinction of the dinosaurs?

    Destruction of Pompeii?

    Chernobel?

    The Challenger disaster?

    You guessed it....the Catholic Church.


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    #76
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    GreenFolder2 wrote: »
    This article comes from a piece of British research and I have found over the years they are a little fixated on associating catholic vs protestant ...
    I managed to find the article (the link didn't work for me) but it concentrtes on countries with worst bf rates in international comparisons (oecd).Basically there are way more 'chatolic' countries than UK with a lot higher bf rates. Personally I wonder what results would we get with comparison of maternity leave or price and availability of formula etc. It would be interesting to see what other factors were taken into account.


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    #77
    GreenFolder2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭GreenFolder2


    I'd say lack of maternity leave and inadequate close-to-work childcare are a huge factor.

    I don't honestly think you'll get much of an issue with people taking offence to someone breastfeeding either. You see it all the time, certainly in Cork anyway.

    I also saw a woman in a coffee shop complain that another woman was breastfeeding, so they gave the complainer a seat outside where she could be 'more comfortable'. She just left.

    So, I really don't think there's likely to be much of an issue with anyone breastfeeding in public here. If anything you'll be stood up for by most businesses / members of the public.

    I mean, what business wants to be tarnished with the reputation of being anti-breastfeeding?!


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    #78
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,408 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    It seems to be that in poorer societies and some cultures there is status attached to feeding your child with baby formula, the ad's for follow on milk reflect this even in a wealthy society like we have.

    There are other issues as well for example in Spain and Portugal breast feeding is seen as the norm and formula feeding is associated with the mother or baby being sick or unwell and the buying of formula is associated with pharmacy's. That does not mean that they don't use formula but the cultural attitude to it is different.


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    #79
    TheDoc
    Registered Users Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    Erm I'd imagine it's less so Catholic guilt and maybe mothers just making their own decisions?

    My partner has formula fed our two children, and considering their development, happy it was the right choice for us.

    Have to say on our second child, now two months old, I didn't appreciate the forcefulness of signage and staff pushing breastfeeding. No one in the hospital was able to provide any scientific evidence, all the sentences and "benefits" used were about bonding and basically things that are not quantifiable. The only thing that appeared to be concrete from the information we asked for was "it helps the mother lose babyweight quicker" : /

    Kinda feel like it's a bit of a "fad" with the whole breastfeeding in public, and there was a noticeable difference on our second child with the pushing of breastfeeding. And to be honest didn't appreciate the expressions and responses some staff were giving when my partner stood fast in her decision.


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    #80
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Geuze wrote: »
    I believe you, but at the same time I find it hard to accept there are so many stupid people around.

    What do they think breasts are for?

    It's totally normal and natural.

    Why would a mother think like that?
    Many people in Ireland have been raised to think that boobs, bums and genitals are dirty and should be covered up. Women in particular are often raised to think that sex is something which should be reluctantly endured and soon forgotten.

    It's not hard to see why they would also consider breastfeeding, or indeed any normal bodily function to be disgusting.

    It may not be direct catholic guilt, but it can be by proxy. Parental influence on children is huge and the majority of new mothers today have parents who were raised under the jackboot of Catholic authoritarianism, and encouraged to be ashamed of themselves.


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    #81
    Day Lewin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,641 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    seamus wrote: »
    Many people in Ireland have been raised to think that boobs, bums and genitals are dirty and should be covered up. Women in particular are often raised to think that sex is something which should be reluctantly endured and soon forgotten.

    It's not hard to see why they would also consider breastfeeding, or indeed any normal bodily function to be disgusting.

    It may not be direct catholic guilt, but it can be by proxy. Parental influence on children is huge and the majority of new mothers today have parents who were raised under the jackboot of Catholic authoritarianism, and encouraged to be ashamed of themselves.

    I'd love to meet some of those people: they must be hidden away somewhere. Certainly not in "After Hours" or anywhere else on boards...or in my family..or my husband's family..or the choir I sing in ( a church choir!) or the social club I attend...

    Honestly, isn't this partly mythology? This is the 21st century. And we can think for ourselves. As could my parents, in their day, AND grandparents - all Catholic but somehow not brainless. And all very keen on breastfeeding.

    Except for one thing...bottoms really ARE dirty, if they aren't washed after doing a poo...just saying!


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    #82
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    TheDoc wrote: »
    Erm I'd imagine it's less so Catholic guilt and maybe mothers just making their own decisions?

    My partner has formula fed our two children, and considering their development, happy it was the right choice for us.

    Have to say on our second child, now two months old, I didn't appreciate the forcefulness of signage and staff pushing breastfeeding. No one in the hospital was able to provide any scientific evidence, all the sentences and "benefits" used were about bonding and basically things that are not quantifiable. The only thing that appeared to be concrete from the information we asked for was "it helps the mother lose babyweight quicker" : /

    Kinda feel like it's a bit of a "fad" with the whole breastfeeding in public, and there was a noticeable difference on our second child with the pushing of breastfeeding. And to be honest didn't appreciate the expressions and responses some staff were giving when my partner stood fast in her decision.
    Breastfeeding in public is not a fad. It's a normal way of life. There is overwhelming evidence that breastfeeding is better for kids not to mention the fact that most people don't even follow manufacturer's instructions for making up formula.

    You might not like the attitude you got there is no point to dismiss plenty of scientific evidence just because you didn't want to do something.


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    #83
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Day Lewin wrote: »
    I'd love to meet some of those people: they must be hidden away somewhere. Certainly not in "After Hours" or anywhere else on boards...or in my family..or my husband's family..or the choir I sing in ( a church choir!) or the social club I attend...
    Just because you don't know them, doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't know anyone who thinks Sinn Fein should be in government or that vaccines cause autism, but I know these people exist.

    What you find is the people around you tend to be really like you. In terms of the people I know, actual revulsion about breastfeeding is confined to one or two people, but overall prudishness about it is surprisingly common.


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    #84
    ectoraige
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    The biggest issue is that many Irish people don't have much exposure to breastfeeding. A study in the past suggested that most women have decided by the age of 16 whether they would breastfeed or not, indicating that public health promotions would be more successful if they were aimed at secondary schools rather than prenatal clinics.

    Women are more likely to breastfeed when their mothers, aunts, or sisters have breastfed. More crucially, they are more likely to continue breastfeeding for longer when they have seen their peers breastfeed successfully.

    The default position for Irish women seems to be one of doubting whether they'd even be able to breastfeed. Yes, it's difficult at the start, and can be very painful, but when you don't have the in-built confidence and knowledge that would you are trying can succeed, it is no wonder so many who try stop early on. There has always been a certain number of women who failed to breastfeed, but by-and-large, thanks to good peer support, women throughout the ages have not had a problem. There is nothing different about Irish breasts that makes breastfeeding hard, it's the mental attitudes and beliefs are held in Ireland.


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    #85
    dub_skav
    Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭dub_skav


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Breastfeeding in public is not a fad. It's a normal way of life. There is overwhelming evidence that breastfeeding is better for kids not to mention the fact that most people don't even follow manufacturer's instructions for making up formula.

    You might not like the attitude you got there is no point to dismiss plenty of scientific evidence just because you didn't want to do something.

    Well TheDoc has said that nobody could provide them with this information. Can you help him out?


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    #86
    LirW
    Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    I don't give a flying f if a woman is breastfeeding or not. Plenty of women have short maternity leaves and in all honesty, even though theoretically you would be entitled to breastfeed, the reality is just that it is extremely inconvenient. It's amazing that there is a substitute for women not being able to breastfeed for whatever reason.
    As a woman you can't win anyway. You are doing it wrong in people's eyes anyway. Wards are understaffed, not every midwife is possible to give you the care and time you'd really need to have a good start off breastfeeding.

    I breastfed my firstborn and I intend to do so again with my new arrival for the main reason: I find it very convenient and it's cheap. All in all once it worked out I had good night sleep, it just worked so well and personally I'm too lazy to carry bottles and water and all of that stuff around. But it's just not for everyone and I don't think it's right to blame women who aren't breastfeeding.

    Let's blame the church for it, that's fine, it is just more fun :pac:


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    #87
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Breastfeeding in public is not a fad. It's a normal way of life. There is overwhelming evidence that breastfeeding is better for kids not to mention the fact that most people don't even follow manufacturer's instructions for making up formula.

    You might not like the attitude you got there is no point to dismiss plenty of scientific evidence just because you didn't want to do something.

    He didn't dismiss it because he wasn't given it. Personally if a mother wants to breast feed then she should do so and be given all the support needed and the right to do it when and where the child needs it. However if she should choose to bottle feed for whatever reason she shouldn't be made to feel guilty for that design.

    The guilt tripping that I see happens more by health professionals than the church.


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    #88
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Men telling women how to be mothers. Boards just keeps on giving. :D


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    #89
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Breastfeeding in public is not a fad.

    In fairness I think he means the breastfeeding in public for attention stuff, rather than just women merely breastfeeding in public. There unquestionably has been women who have gone out purposefully to get a reaction so they can then go to the media. Same with a lot of the late stage breastfeeding stuff that has been in the news, such as the woman that appeared on the front cover of Time magazine breastfeeding her almost four year old.

    I'm all for women breastfeeding in public, it's their business and if you have a problem with it, then that's your problem. Seems odd to me that someone could be drinking a milk shake (milk from another species' tit) and look across and see a member of their own species drinking milk from their mother and be disgusted by it. Such people should be asked to leave restaurants if they complain I feel.

    But lets not pretend that some women out there aren't using breastfeeding to get attention and that it has become somewhat of a fad to do so, as it undoubtedly has.

    http://people.com/human-interest/breastfeeding-mom-challenges-critics-icy-stare-by-staring-right-back/


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    #90
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    dub_skav wrote: »
    Well TheDoc has said that nobody could provide them with this information. Can you help him out?

    There is this magic thing called Google.

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/jan/28/breastfeeding-could-prevent-800000-child-deaths-lancet-says


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    #91
    Lia_lia
    Registered Users Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Lia_lia


    I don't know would I call it Catholic guilt but many Irish people are prudes. Also just not used to breastfeeding I guess. I used to be a waitress and many of my co-workers wouldn't even go up to take orders from a table where a woman was breastfeeding because it was "weird" and "awkward".

    My Mother breastfed my brother and myself until we were toddlers and said it was extremely easy and she doesn't understand how people find it difficult. She obviously just had a good experience with it and had no issues. Also it was 27 years ago so she probably has forgotten if it was in any way difficult! This was also in the UK so there was probably more support. All my cousins were breastfed at some stage. I didn't even know formula existed until I was almost a teenager.

    A friend of mine is breastfeeding and says she got no support at all from the hospital and she can see why so few Irish women breastfeed. She was given formula for her baby in the hospital and had to pay for a few visits from a lactation consultant for support. Also, she got (and still gets!) plenty of comments from people saying "would you not just give her a bottle" etc..


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