Low Breastfeeding rates linked to Catholic Guilt

JupiterKid

According to a study, Ireland has the lowest breastfeeding rates in the developed world and this is very closely linked to its Catholic heritage. Despite breastfeeding being widely acknowledged as best for babies, less than half of Irish women have tried it. In the 1970s, breastfeeding reached a low of 11%.

Here's a link to the article about the study;
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/religion-cited-as-influencing-low-breastfeeding-rates-1.2894194

So it looks like despite all the changes here in the past 25 years, Irish Catholic guilt is still alive and well.

BoJack Horseman

Where is 'guilt' mentioned?

Being a product of the 80's I wasn't breast-fed.... but that was largely because my mother couldn't be arsed & she would be just dropping fag-ash on me all the time anyway!

I don't think guilt was an issue..

RobertKK

Catholic guilt is a load of rubbish and an excuse, a lot of women want the men to help feed the baby and a lot of women don't want to milk or 'express' their milk. They would rather go dry.

btw I think babies should get their mother's milk if the situation allows.

darkpagandeath

Does Ireland not produce a load of formula ? And don't they give you formula and that in the basket you get from the maternity hospital ?

FortySeven

The 70s was the height of Catholic oppression?

Isn't it more to do simply with the availability of alternatives?

Next they'll be saying elective c sections are growing due to salafism taking hold.

FortySeven

Being an atheist I never experienced Catholic guilt but then I suppose, both my kids were breastfed.

Bloody Catholics, starving the babies and such. Barbarians, the lot of ya!

Subcomandante Marcos

I'd say it has more to do with us producing a massive percentage of the worlds dairy based formula, the marketing push around the same in the 70's and the convenience it brought for mothers.

Cupcake_Crisis

I don't buy the Catholic guilt thing, especially with women in my age group. Anyone I know who didn't breast feed didn't do it because it was too painful or they just didn't want to.

fatknacker

Maybe it's just not convenient or possible for lots of women to have baldy hanging off their tit all the time.

drunkmonkey

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I don't buy the Catholic guilt thing, especially with women in my age group. Anyone I know who didn't breast feed didn't do it because it was too painful or they just didn't want to.

How about the women that did, what was their motivation.

FortySeven

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How about the women that did, what was their motivation.

They gave a ****.

GreenFolder2

I would have thought it was more of a case of Ireland clinging to British Victorian puritanical views of the body for far longer than it should have.

I find a lot of British studies and commentary can be a bit fixated on Catholic vs Protestant.

The flavour of religious conservatism found here in the past was basically a catholic version of extreme Victorian puritanical notions about terror of nudity, fear of sexuality etc etc

Goya

I see a Waterford Whispers headline in the pipeline: "Atheists significantly more obsessed with catholic guilt than actual catholics are".

drunkmonkey

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I would have thought it was more of a case of Ireland clinging to British Victorian puritanical views of the body for far longer than it should have.

I find a lot of British studies and commentary can be a bit fixated on Catholic vs Protestant.

The flavour of religious conservatism found here in the past was basically a catholic version of extreme Victorian puritanical notions about terror of nudity, fear of sexuality etc etc

Or how about Irish women are way to obsessed with keeping themselves looking good even when it comes to boobs we never see bar the odd roaster of a day in may.

FortySeven

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I would have thought it was more of a case of Ireland clinging to British Victorian puritanical views of the body for far longer than it should have.

I find a lot of British studies and commentary can be a bit fixated on Catholic vs Protestant.

The flavour of religious conservatism found here in the past was basically a catholic version of extreme Victorian puritanical notions about terror of nudity, fear of sexuality etc etc

Blaming the Brits? That's a low blow right there.

rgace

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I don't buy the Catholic guilt thing, especially with women in my age group. Anyone I know who didn't breast feed didn't do it because it was too painful or they just didn't want to.

I am not sure if Catholic guilt is the correct term but I have discussed this with women who saw it as a sexual act and inappropriate for a baby. We were all young at the time of the discussion so it could be a maturity thing.

What reasons do those who just didn't want to have?

drunkmonkey

Supping milk from your mammy is not a sexual act. Jesus what are these women thinking.

GreenFolder2

FortySeven wrote: »

Blaming the Brits? That's a low blow right there.

Well the uk does have the lowest breastfeeding rates in the world. It's hardly surprising given the cultural links Ireland does too.

http://www.britishscienceassociation.org/news/breastfeeding-rates-in-uk-are-the-lowest-in-the-world

Goya

rgace wrote: »

I am not sure if Catholic guilt is the correct term but I have discussed this with women who saw it as a sexual act and inappropriate for a baby. We were all young at the time of the discussion so it could be a maturity thing.

What reasons do those who just didn't want to have?

As Cupcake said, too painful. It can be very difficult with baby just not latching on and/or severe soreness. Depends on the breasts. My mother started working as a nurse in the 60s - said choosing not to breastfeed due to the pain (not modesty or wanting to keep boobs looking perky) was always a thing, and something she never found objectionable as it's not manageable for all women (even though she breastfed all her children).

RobertKK

rgace wrote: »

I am not sure if Catholic guilt is the correct term but I have discussed this with women who saw it as a sexual act and inappropriate for a baby. We were all young at the time of the discussion so it could be a maturity thing.

What reasons do those who just didn't want to have?

Far from sexual... I mean does one see a lamb sucking the tit of the ewe as sexual, or a suckler cow with her calf. I mean we are all mammals.

I was not breasted, but then I grew up on a dairy farm and we had lots of cows milk...

FortySeven

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Supping milk from your mammy is not a sexual act. Jesus what are these women thinking.

It's part of the rape culture. Us men are using our children to oppress and abuse them.

Didn't you get the memo from the brotherhood about the most effective way to deploy a newborn?

drunkmonkey

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Well the uk does have the lowest breastfeeding rates in the world. It's hardly surprising given the cultural links Ireland does too.

God gave British women the biggest boobs in Europe. What was he thinking.

BoJack Horseman

rgace wrote: »

I have discussed this with women who saw it as a sexual act and inappropriate for a baby. We were all young at the time of the discussion so it could be a maturity thing

So..... the bottles teat is the newborn equivalent of the fleshlight.

Where did you find these 'women'?

FortySeven

drunkmonkey wrote: »

God gave British women the biggest boobs in Europe. What was he thinking.

Sadly, he didn't give them long enough arms to hold the baby down there.

rgace

Flimpson wrote: »

As Cupcake said, too painful. It can be very difficult with baby just not latching on and/or severe soreness. Depends on the breasts. My mother started working as a nurse in the 60s - said choosing not to breastfeed due to the pain (not modesty or wanting to keep boobs looking perky) was always a thing, and something she never found objectionable as it's not manageable for all women (even though she breastfed all her children).

I would assume that is the reason in the majority of cases. I could be wrong but mothers probably spend less time in hospital after giving birth nowadays, time which could be used to practice breastfeeding with the help of a midwife if they are struggling

Cupcake_Crisis

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How about the women that did, what was their motivation.

They wanted to?

FortySeven wrote: »

Blaming the Brits? That's a low blow right there.

As is insinuating that women who don't breast feed don't give a **** about their babies, but there you go.

rgace wrote: »

I am not sure if Catholic guilt is the correct term but I have discussed this with women who saw it as a sexual act and inappropriate for a baby. We were all young at the time of the discussion so it could be a maturity thing.

What reasons do those who just didn't want to have?

That's their business, not mine!

darkpagandeath

drunkmonkey wrote: »

God gave British women the biggest boobs in Europe. What was he thinking.

Balances out with the teeth though ?

FortySeven

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

As is insinuating that women who don't breast feed don't give a **** about their babies, but there you go.

when done for convenience and comfort?

Against all that we know about it being beneficial to development and immunity?

Yes, selfish as ****.

Cupcake_Crisis

FortySeven wrote: »

when done for convenience and comfort?

Against all that we know about it being beneficial to development and immunity?

Yes, selfish as ****.

Any woman who's gone through a 9 month pregnancy and a labour has earned the right to decide to be comfortable. We also know that there are perfectly good substitutes for breast milk so that the baby still gets everything it needs.

Some mothers don't produce enough milk, their milk is lacking in certain vitamins, is bad for the baby or its just too painful. Maybe give it a second thought before you tell them they don't give a ****.

drunkmonkey

Should be mandatory, people step toe around mums, time to get tough on the ones who won't get their boobs out of the babs.
The figures don't lie, Irish women just aren't doing it left to themselves.

FortySeven

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Any woman who's gone through a 9 month pregnancy and a labour has earned the right to decide to be comfortable. We also know that there are perfectly good substitutes for breast milk so that the baby still gets everything it needs.

Some mothers don't produce enough milk, their milk is lacking in certain vitamins, is bad for the baby or its just too painful. Maybe give it a second thought before you tell them they don't give a ****.

Bunch of crybabies these 'modern' mum's really. Generations managed this simple task over and over again. Modern mums need rests, alternatives, substitutes..

There are NO better alternatives to breastmilk.

Having a child is the most natural thing in the world and for all the hatred I have for my ex I will say this for her, there was none of this nonsense. She carried, birthed and fed my kids like a trooper.

None of this whinging malarkey and pretending it is something special. It's breeding. It's what we do as a race. We're really successful at it.
At least we used to be. Now it's become an industry and a talking shop of nonsense.

We're animals. We breed. It's not special.

Cupcake_Crisis

FortySeven wrote: »

Bunch of crybabies these 'modern' mum's really. Generations managed this simple task over and over again. Modern mums need rests, alternatives, substitutes..

There are NO better alternatives to breastmilk.

Having a child is the most natural thing in the world and for all the hatred I have for my ex I will say this for her, there was none of this nonsense. She carried, birthed and fed my kids like a trooper.

None of this whinging malarkey and pretending it is something special. It's breeding. It's what we do as a race. We're really successful at it.
At least we used to be. Now it's become an industry and a talking shop of nonsense.

We're animals. We breed. It's not special.

You really need to work on your attitude towards women. Good for your ex that she did all that, I'm sure her blue Peter badge is in the post. Not all women are your ex.

Imagine a new mother needing a rest. What a bitch.

JupiterKid

I think some of it is down to education. I heard of a study where higher educated women were more likely to breast feed than their lesser educated counterparts.

Of course breast feeding is and should not be mandatory. But there seems to be a societal disapproval of women breast feeding in public and that's just plain wrong. Breasts are for breast feeding. Their sexual function is secondary. But we have become unhealthily obsessed with the sexual nature of breasts.

I find it interesting that breast feeding rates were at a nadir in Ireland in the 70s - at a time when breast feeding was on the major resurgence in the rest of the West.

ceadaoin.

Ffs women can't win. How many threads have there been on here with people complaining about babies being breastfed in public? It's disgusting, can they not be fed in the toilet, stay at home, it's akin to taking a dump in public etc. During those discussions I've seen many people suggesting that the baby should be bottle fed instead as there's no need for it. But now women who don't do it are selfish b!tches who care more about their looks. Ok. It's any excuse to bash women around here.

Yes, the rates should be higher but "getting tough" on mothers who don't do it isn't going to help. Education is the answer

drunkmonkey

FortySeven looking down on the thread now.

ceadaoin.

FortySeven wrote: »

Bunch of crybabies these 'modern' mum's really. Generations managed this simple task over and over again. Modern mums need rests, alternatives, substitutes..

There are NO better alternatives to breastmilk.

.

Why do you think wet nurses existed? There have always been women who are unable to breastfeed. Except now they have the option for their baby not to die if they don't have the means to hire another woman to do it.

FortySeven

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

You really need to work on your attitude towards women. Good for your ex that she did all that, I'm sure her blue Peter badge is in the post. Not all women are your ex.

Imagine a new mother needing a rest. What a bitch.

No, women just need to stop playing victims and get on with the things they have to do.

Having a child does not make you a victim. It's genetic, get on with it. Rests are fine, they last a few hours, You can take a few a day on top of your regular sleeping pattern. What have they to do with breastfeeding?

And guess what, all women are my ex, you all have breasts and you can all breastfeed children.

What do you imagine human beings to be? You know we are just bald, clever monkeys right?

Most successful animal on the planet? Rome was built by breastfed babies. German women cowered in basements under bombardment as they breastfed. The plains of America were colonised by breastfeeding women. Breastfeeding was done in caves without even fire.

This modern day one here with a nice warm, centrally heated apartment, a jeep to travel around in and a diet so rich and varied and plenfiful it has never been known in existence, with the weight of medical development behind her, with supportive partners and strollers and childcare and .......

Needs a ****ing rest. Give me a break.

It's not about my attitude to women. It's about women's attitudes because frankly dear, in a historical sense, modern women are an embarrassment.

banned

FortySeven

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Why do you think wet nurses existed? There have always been women who are unable to breastfeed. Except now they have the option for their baby not to die if they don't have the means to hire another woman to do it.

Yes. I'm only talking to those who elect not to for convenience and selfishness. Thete is plenty of that about.

Cupcake_Crisis

FortySeven wrote: »

No, women just need to stop playing victims and get on with the things they have to do.

Having a child does not make you a victim. It's genetic, get on with it. Rests are fine, they last a few hours, You can take a few a day on top of your regular sleeping pattern. What have they to do with breastfeeding?

And guess what, all women are my ex, you all have breasts and you can all breastfeed children.

What do you imagine human beings to be? You know we are just bald, clever monkeys right?

Most successful animal on the planet? Rome was built by breastfed babies. German women cowered in basements under bombardment as they breastfed. The plains of America were colonised by breastfeeding women. Breastfeeding was done in caves without even fire.

This modern day one here with a nice warm, centrally heated apartment, a jeep to travel around in and a diet so rich and varied and plenfiful it has never been known in existence, with the weight of medical development behind her, with supportive partners and strollers and childcare and .......

Needs a ****ing rest. Give me a break.

It's not about my attitude to women. It's about women's attitudes because frankly dear, in a historical sense, modern women are an embarrassment.

Jesus you're something else.

Can you point out exactly where anyone equated being a mother to being a victim?

Yes, all women have breasts but not all women can breast feed. In the same way that all men have penises but not all men can be fathers.

I can only assume that you have the infant mortality rates for your historical claims? That's also a very beautiful best case scenario you described there, but is not available to all women.

The fact is that modern women are a result of the modern world. If you don't like it, I suggest you crawl back into your cave and avoid it.

FortySeven

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Jesus you're something else.

Can you point out exactly where anyone equated being a mother to being a victim?

Yes, all women have breasts but not all women can breast feed. In the same way that all men have penises but not all men can be fathers.

I can only assume that you have the infant mortality rates for your historical claims? That's also a very beautiful best case scenario you described there, but is not available to all women.

The fact is that modern women are a result of the modern world. If you don't like it, I suggest you crawl back into your cave and avoid it.

Poor effort 0/10

ceadaoin.

FortySeven wrote: »

Yes. I'm only talking to those who elect not to for convenience and selfishness. Thete is plenty of that about.

I disagree that those are the reasons. It's mainly ignorance IMO. Many women of child bearing age in Ireland have never been around breastfeeding. In countries with higher breastfeeding rates, it's seen as the normal thing to do and there are plenty of experienced people around to help. That definitely isn't the case in Ireland.

Not that there arent some women who don't try for what you think are "selfish" reasons, I'm sure a small minority do. But most just don't have the knowledge or support. It's really not a case of just stick the baby on your boob and off you go. I was very surprised at how hard it was at first. I thought that the books I read had prepared me, but no amount of reading can replace real life, experienced support.

Advbrd

FortySeven wrote: »

Bunch of crybabies these 'modern' mum's really. Generations managed this simple task over and over again. Modern mums need rests, alternatives, substitutes..

There are NO better alternatives to breastmilk.

Having a child is the most natural thing in the world and for all the hatred I have for my ex I will say this for her, there was none of this nonsense. She carried, birthed and fed my kids like a trooper.

None of this whinging malarkey and pretending it is something special. It's breeding. It's what we do as a race. We're really successful at it.
At least we used to be. Now it's become an industry and a talking shop of nonsense.

We're animals. We breed. It's not special.

I wonder why she is your ex.

Outlaw Pete

Impossible, babies are too young to feel guilty.

Grayson

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Ffs women can't win. How many threads have there been on here with people complaining about babies being breastfed in public? It's disgusting, can they not be fed in the toilet, stay at home, it's akin to taking a dump in public etc. During those discussions I've seen many people suggesting that the baby should be bottle fed instead as there's no need for it. But now women who don't do it are selfish b!tches who care more about their looks. Ok. It's any excuse to bash women around here.

Yes, the rates should be higher but "getting tough" on mothers who don't do it isn't going to help. Education is the answer

I have a sister who is very pro breastfeeding. She's pretty much an evangelist for it. She's disgusted by the amount of advertising there is for formula here.

However she does say it's not right for everyone. There are some babies that take to a bottle rather than a breast no matter what you try. Too often those women see themselves as failures. They think something's wrong.

And she says that if a woman chooses a bottle as the method of feeding then she's demonised by breastfeeding women (not all just some). Apparently on a lot of parenting forums just mentioning that you're bottle feeding is enough to whip up a lot of posters into a frenzy.

meeeeh

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Some mothers don't produce enough milk, their milk is lacking in certain vitamins, is bad for the baby or its just too painful. Maybe give it a second thought before you tell them they don't give a ****.

Breast milk bad for baby? I heard it all now.

While I disagree with nonsense Fourtyseven is sprouting it is in vast majority of cases a cultural reason otherwise the difference in breastfeeding rates in comparison to most other European countries wouldn't be as stark. It's a pity because it's healthier for a mother and a child.

pwurple

The irish times would say the catholics are responsible for rain on their picnic at this stage.

The position of the catholic church is pro-breastfeeding, in churches, and anywhere else. I was born in a catholic hospital, and was breastfed. Th nuns were almost militantly pro-breastfeeding apparantly. "What do you think they are for".

Fuzzytrooper

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Does Ireland not produce a load of formula ? And don't they give you formula and that in the basket you get from the maternity hospital ?

Just came back with wife and mini trooper #2 last Sunday. They don't give you a basket and the official hospital line (we've had kids in 2) is that breastfeeding is best. They will provide formula but you have to request it. With that said my wife was the only one out of 4 on her ward breastfeeding.

hairyslug

Can we go back to blaming the church, that was a much more fun topic.

Outlaw Pete

meeeeh wrote: »

Breast milk bad for baby? I heard it all now.

Can be. If the mommy's been a bold mommy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3820558/Glamorous-TV-presenter-couple-sentenced-year-probation-four-month-old-baby-COCAINE-ingested-breast-milk.html

meeeeh

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Can be. If the mommy's been a bold mommy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3820558/Glamorous-TV-presenter-couple-sentenced-year-probation-four-month-old-baby-COCAINE-ingested-breast-milk.html

Yeah but in cases like that it is mother's fault and not being a victim of circumstances.

Pherekydes

Breastfeeding is not very convenient for some. You can't have a great time on your weekend away if you're breastfeeding. It's much easier to dump the kid off at your mother's and then you're free for the whole night or weekend.