Low Breastfeeding rates linked to Catholic Guilt

Cupcake_Crisis

FortySeven wrote: »

Bunch of crybabies these 'modern' mum's really. Generations managed this simple task over and over again. Modern mums need rests, alternatives, substitutes..

There are NO better alternatives to breastmilk.

Having a child is the most natural thing in the world and for all the hatred I have for my ex I will say this for her, there was none of this nonsense. She carried, birthed and fed my kids like a trooper.

None of this whinging malarkey and pretending it is something special. It's breeding. It's what we do as a race. We're really successful at it.
At least we used to be. Now it's become an industry and a talking shop of nonsense.

We're animals. We breed. It's not special.

You really need to work on your attitude towards women. Good for your ex that she did all that, I'm sure her blue Peter badge is in the post. Not all women are your ex.

Imagine a new mother needing a rest. What a bitch.

JupiterKid

I think some of it is down to education. I heard of a study where higher educated women were more likely to breast feed than their lesser educated counterparts.

Of course breast feeding is and should not be mandatory. But there seems to be a societal disapproval of women breast feeding in public and that's just plain wrong. Breasts are for breast feeding. Their sexual function is secondary. But we have become unhealthily obsessed with the sexual nature of breasts.

I find it interesting that breast feeding rates were at a nadir in Ireland in the 70s - at a time when breast feeding was on the major resurgence in the rest of the West.

ceadaoin.

Ffs women can't win. How many threads have there been on here with people complaining about babies being breastfed in public? It's disgusting, can they not be fed in the toilet, stay at home, it's akin to taking a dump in public etc. During those discussions I've seen many people suggesting that the baby should be bottle fed instead as there's no need for it. But now women who don't do it are selfish b!tches who care more about their looks. Ok. It's any excuse to bash women around here.

Yes, the rates should be higher but "getting tough" on mothers who don't do it isn't going to help. Education is the answer

drunkmonkey

FortySeven looking down on the thread now.

ceadaoin.

FortySeven wrote: »

Bunch of crybabies these 'modern' mum's really. Generations managed this simple task over and over again. Modern mums need rests, alternatives, substitutes..

There are NO better alternatives to breastmilk.

.

Why do you think wet nurses existed? There have always been women who are unable to breastfeed. Except now they have the option for their baby not to die if they don't have the means to hire another woman to do it.

FortySeven

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

You really need to work on your attitude towards women. Good for your ex that she did all that, I'm sure her blue Peter badge is in the post. Not all women are your ex.

Imagine a new mother needing a rest. What a bitch.

No, women just need to stop playing victims and get on with the things they have to do.

Having a child does not make you a victim. It's genetic, get on with it. Rests are fine, they last a few hours, You can take a few a day on top of your regular sleeping pattern. What have they to do with breastfeeding?

And guess what, all women are my ex, you all have breasts and you can all breastfeed children.

What do you imagine human beings to be? You know we are just bald, clever monkeys right?

Most successful animal on the planet? Rome was built by breastfed babies. German women cowered in basements under bombardment as they breastfed. The plains of America were colonised by breastfeeding women. Breastfeeding was done in caves without even fire.

This modern day one here with a nice warm, centrally heated apartment, a jeep to travel around in and a diet so rich and varied and plenfiful it has never been known in existence, with the weight of medical development behind her, with supportive partners and strollers and childcare and .......

Needs a ****ing rest. Give me a break.

It's not about my attitude to women. It's about women's attitudes because frankly dear, in a historical sense, modern women are an embarrassment.

banned

FortySeven

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Why do you think wet nurses existed? There have always been women who are unable to breastfeed. Except now they have the option for their baby not to die if they don't have the means to hire another woman to do it.

Yes. I'm only talking to those who elect not to for convenience and selfishness. Thete is plenty of that about.

Cupcake_Crisis

FortySeven wrote: »

No, women just need to stop playing victims and get on with the things they have to do.

Having a child does not make you a victim. It's genetic, get on with it. Rests are fine, they last a few hours, You can take a few a day on top of your regular sleeping pattern. What have they to do with breastfeeding?

And guess what, all women are my ex, you all have breasts and you can all breastfeed children.

What do you imagine human beings to be? You know we are just bald, clever monkeys right?

Most successful animal on the planet? Rome was built by breastfed babies. German women cowered in basements under bombardment as they breastfed. The plains of America were colonised by breastfeeding women. Breastfeeding was done in caves without even fire.

This modern day one here with a nice warm, centrally heated apartment, a jeep to travel around in and a diet so rich and varied and plenfiful it has never been known in existence, with the weight of medical development behind her, with supportive partners and strollers and childcare and .......

Needs a ****ing rest. Give me a break.

It's not about my attitude to women. It's about women's attitudes because frankly dear, in a historical sense, modern women are an embarrassment.

Jesus you're something else.

Can you point out exactly where anyone equated being a mother to being a victim?

Yes, all women have breasts but not all women can breast feed. In the same way that all men have penises but not all men can be fathers.

I can only assume that you have the infant mortality rates for your historical claims? That's also a very beautiful best case scenario you described there, but is not available to all women.

The fact is that modern women are a result of the modern world. If you don't like it, I suggest you crawl back into your cave and avoid it.

FortySeven

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Jesus you're something else.

Can you point out exactly where anyone equated being a mother to being a victim?

Yes, all women have breasts but not all women can breast feed. In the same way that all men have penises but not all men can be fathers.

I can only assume that you have the infant mortality rates for your historical claims? That's also a very beautiful best case scenario you described there, but is not available to all women.

The fact is that modern women are a result of the modern world. If you don't like it, I suggest you crawl back into your cave and avoid it.

Poor effort 0/10

ceadaoin.

FortySeven wrote: »

Yes. I'm only talking to those who elect not to for convenience and selfishness. Thete is plenty of that about.

I disagree that those are the reasons. It's mainly ignorance IMO. Many women of child bearing age in Ireland have never been around breastfeeding. In countries with higher breastfeeding rates, it's seen as the normal thing to do and there are plenty of experienced people around to help. That definitely isn't the case in Ireland.

Not that there arent some women who don't try for what you think are "selfish" reasons, I'm sure a small minority do. But most just don't have the knowledge or support. It's really not a case of just stick the baby on your boob and off you go. I was very surprised at how hard it was at first. I thought that the books I read had prepared me, but no amount of reading can replace real life, experienced support.

Advbrd

FortySeven wrote: »

Bunch of crybabies these 'modern' mum's really. Generations managed this simple task over and over again. Modern mums need rests, alternatives, substitutes..

There are NO better alternatives to breastmilk.

Having a child is the most natural thing in the world and for all the hatred I have for my ex I will say this for her, there was none of this nonsense. She carried, birthed and fed my kids like a trooper.

None of this whinging malarkey and pretending it is something special. It's breeding. It's what we do as a race. We're really successful at it.
At least we used to be. Now it's become an industry and a talking shop of nonsense.

We're animals. We breed. It's not special.

I wonder why she is your ex.

Outlaw Pete

Impossible, babies are too young to feel guilty.

Grayson

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Ffs women can't win. How many threads have there been on here with people complaining about babies being breastfed in public? It's disgusting, can they not be fed in the toilet, stay at home, it's akin to taking a dump in public etc. During those discussions I've seen many people suggesting that the baby should be bottle fed instead as there's no need for it. But now women who don't do it are selfish b!tches who care more about their looks. Ok. It's any excuse to bash women around here.

Yes, the rates should be higher but "getting tough" on mothers who don't do it isn't going to help. Education is the answer

I have a sister who is very pro breastfeeding. She's pretty much an evangelist for it. She's disgusted by the amount of advertising there is for formula here.

However she does say it's not right for everyone. There are some babies that take to a bottle rather than a breast no matter what you try. Too often those women see themselves as failures. They think something's wrong.

And she says that if a woman chooses a bottle as the method of feeding then she's demonised by breastfeeding women (not all just some). Apparently on a lot of parenting forums just mentioning that you're bottle feeding is enough to whip up a lot of posters into a frenzy.

meeeeh

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Some mothers don't produce enough milk, their milk is lacking in certain vitamins, is bad for the baby or its just too painful. Maybe give it a second thought before you tell them they don't give a ****.

Breast milk bad for baby? I heard it all now.

While I disagree with nonsense Fourtyseven is sprouting it is in vast majority of cases a cultural reason otherwise the difference in breastfeeding rates in comparison to most other European countries wouldn't be as stark. It's a pity because it's healthier for a mother and a child.

pwurple

The irish times would say the catholics are responsible for rain on their picnic at this stage.

The position of the catholic church is pro-breastfeeding, in churches, and anywhere else. I was born in a catholic hospital, and was breastfed. Th nuns were almost militantly pro-breastfeeding apparantly. "What do you think they are for".

Fuzzytrooper

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Does Ireland not produce a load of formula ? And don't they give you formula and that in the basket you get from the maternity hospital ?

Just came back with wife and mini trooper #2 last Sunday. They don't give you a basket and the official hospital line (we've had kids in 2) is that breastfeeding is best. They will provide formula but you have to request it. With that said my wife was the only one out of 4 on her ward breastfeeding.

hairyslug

Can we go back to blaming the church, that was a much more fun topic.

Outlaw Pete

meeeeh wrote: »

Breast milk bad for baby? I heard it all now.

Can be. If the mommy's been a bold mommy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3820558/Glamorous-TV-presenter-couple-sentenced-year-probation-four-month-old-baby-COCAINE-ingested-breast-milk.html

meeeeh

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Can be. If the mommy's been a bold mommy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3820558/Glamorous-TV-presenter-couple-sentenced-year-probation-four-month-old-baby-COCAINE-ingested-breast-milk.html

Yeah but in cases like that it is mother's fault and not being a victim of circumstances.

Pherekydes

Breastfeeding is not very convenient for some. You can't have a great time on your weekend away if you're breastfeeding. It's much easier to dump the kid off at your mother's and then you're free for the whole night or weekend.

meeeeh

Pherekydes wrote: »

Breastfeeding is not very convenient for some. You can't have a great time on your weekend away if you're breastfeeding. It's much easier to dump the kid off at your mother's and then you're free for the whole night or weekend.

Trust me you can.

HS3

FortySeven wrote: »

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How about the women that did, what was their motivation.

They gave a ****.

So did the mothers who formula fed. I tried breastfeeding it didn't work. Was post emergency c section, had pre eclampsia before and after the birth. I tried to breastfeed but my son wasn't latching on properly. When I thought he was and was under the illusion he was happily feeding away, the nurse came in and said he was getting nowt. It, being my first, I was worried about whether that would happen at home too and he'd end up starving! I rented a pump instead and for the first two weeks pumped and he got that on top of his formula. Not an ounce of not giving a ****, it just didn't work.

On the second guy, that was an emergency c section too. Much more serious than the first. And I puked for hours afterwards on the morphine. Was in no condition to try breastfeeding. When I finally came round and said it to the nurse, she said 'ah sure he's grand on the formula leave him be'. Needless to say I've kicked myself ever since for not going with my instinct, but I was battered and bruised and in no mood for a fight.

I absolutely give a **** it just didn't work out for me.

Advbrd

HS3 wrote: »

So did the mothers who formula fed. I tried breastfeeding it didn't work. Was post emergency c section, had pre eclampsia before and after the birth. I tried to breastfeed but my son wasn't latching on properly. When I thought he was and was under the illusion he was happily feeding away, the nurse came in and said he was getting nowt. It, being my first, I was worried about whether that would happen at home too and he'd end up starving! I rented a pump instead and for the first two weeks pumped and he got that on top of his formula. Not an ounce of not giving a ****, it just didn't work.

On the second guy, that was an emergency c section too. Much more serious than the first. And I puked for hours afterwards on the morphine. Was in no condition to try breastfeeding. When I finally came round and said it to the nurse, she said 'ah sure he's grand on the formula leave him be'. Needless to say I've kicked myself ever since for not going with my instinct, but I was battered and bruised and in no mood for a fight.

I absolutely give a **** it just didn't work out for me.

Of course you give a sh1t. The vast majority of mothers and fathers do. Linking breast feeding to giving a sh1t is pretty moronic to say the least. My daughter was breast fed my son was not due to complications.

fizzypish

"Why do men have nipples" GTA vice city (I think). Breast feeding seems like a massive pain in the hole. Sure it might be better but your sanity is worth more. I wouldn't do it and if I did, I'd probably be put in jail for being a paedo. Cant have chizzelers sucking on me chesticles!

Penny Tration

FortySeven, I know what your ex has done and your antipathy towards her is warranted.


But based on your repeated posts on numerous threads about women, especially in AH, I really think you'd benefit from talking to a counsellor or your GP. The level of derision and downright nastiness you show women in general is concerning.


I'm sure you're not usually that hateful, and understandably you're upset and hurt over your ex, but you need to do something to get over your hatred of women before you end up a lonely old man.

Please talk to someone.

seamus

rgace wrote: »

I would assume that is the reason in the majority of cases. I could be wrong but mothers probably spend less time in hospital after giving birth nowadays, time which could be used to practice breastfeeding with the help of a midwife if they are struggling

That's if midwives were available.

My wife's experience was that one great midwife did her best to try and help in between rushing around to do everything else.
All of the other midwives were like drill sergeants, constantly threatening to take the baby and give it a bottle if she wasn't able to figure out breastfeeding.

Irish maternity hospitals are run like production lines. There's little consideration given to personal or emotional support, the aim is get the baby out according to the hospital's schedule and then send it home healthy as soon as possible. They don't care about mothers.

HSE guidelines require nurses and midwives to avoid the dreaded f-word at all costs, but as soon as the baby is out, most will steer new mothers towards bottles because it makes the midwives' lives easier.

The overall attitude towards breastfeeding is pretty poor in Ireland. I've heard a number of woman make "yuck" faces when it's discussed, and heard others outright say that it's disgusting. Convenience of bottles is a huge factor, but there's a significant cohort of Irish people who are still more conservative about anything to do with nudity than we'd like to believe.

Lucyfur

Low breastfeeding rates in Ireland are due to maternity wards being ridiculously understaffed and women not having help and support on tap for the first few weeks. Cos it is hard and it is painful. There's also no access to lactation consultants on the weekends.

conorhal

pwurple wrote: »

The irish times would say the catholics are responsible for rain on their picnic at this stage.

The position of the catholic church is pro-breastfeeding, in churches, and anywhere else. I was born in a catholic hospital, and was breastfed. Th nuns were almost militantly pro-breastfeeding apparantly. "What do you think they are for".

Personally I'm baffled as to what this 'Catholic guilt' is exactly and why a generation of 20-30 somethings that have never set foot in a church are suffering from it?

I could understand my mothers generation experiencing it, women who were 'churched' after giving birth to expunge the sin of sex, but I'm pretty sure the kids today experience guilt as a failure to instantly reply to a text or associate it with unfrending somebody on facebook.

Talk about lazy, ideologically motivated stupid peice if writing. No wonder the Times is a dying rag.

Day Lewin

What a load of nonsense, my grandmothers were both very Catholic and they enthusiastically nursed their babies.

There was a big shift to "artificial feeding" in the 1920s: it was considered very modern, more "scientific", and of course, provided a sales opportunity for the multi-million dairy industry!

And in Ireland, since formula costs money, the continuance of breastfeeding was (and still is, sometimes) associated with the poorest people and particularly with the Travelling community.

So there was lots of snobbery attached, as well.

But nothing to do with Catholicism! Look at Luke 11:27, 28

@OP - Don't wish your own prejudices onto other issues.

mariaalice

The convenience of the bottle feed is the answer also fashion has something to do with it when my oldest was born 32 years ago I was the only one Breast feeding in the maternity unit, the midwives has a that's interesting we do see the occasional Breast feeding mother by the time my second was born it was becoming more common again.

I gave up and put them both on to bottles after a few weeks simply because it was convenient. Let people do what works for them.