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The End for Youghal?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    'Care and maintenance' is non existant, apart from putting fencing around Youghal station to prevent the local branch of Mensa from torching it again and work to road bridges, some of which have been renewed already.
    They were ordered to do that and reroof the station under derilect buildings ledgislation by the council.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Population of Youghal is about 10k.
    Hard to see enough passengers to justify rebuilding a train line, especially as the road will be upgraded, and thta will provide connectivity to Waterford as well as Cork. The wrc and Nenagh lines at least have potential for connecting to places at both ends.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    I'm surprised nobody has asked this but...is there any possible demand for this line if it opened? What's the surrounding population density and pop in general like?

    Surely it's time to scrap it OR open it, maintaining it while closed seems pointless

    protecting rail routes is not pointless. it insures the land can be re-used as a railway again if ever needed. the routes as they are cost absolutely nothing.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Surely it's time to scrap it OR open it, maintaining it while closed seems pointless

    That was the mindset of fifty years ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,206 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    That was the mindset of fifty years ago.

    50 years ago they were closing lines that already had services running on them. These lines haven't seen a train in decades (in most cases) but are still costing money to maintain.

    This money comes from somewhere and could be better used somewhere else - it could even be used to improve services on (say) the Ballybrophy line (I don't actually think this is a good idea, but I'd rather see the transport budget spent on running transport than maintaining old infrastructure that has zero chance of being reopened).

    The big mistake in the past was selling off the land, or allowing it to fall into adverse possession, but we now have the option of turning old lines into Greenways, that's what should be done with all these lines (except maybe South Wexford as it's such a recent closure).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    loyatemu wrote: »
    50 years ago they were closing lines that already had services running on them. These lines haven't seen a train in decades (in most cases) but are still costing money to maintain.

    says CIE. the reality is rather different i suspect.
    for example. youghal has had much of the track lifted for years. wrc had an inspection car i think 10 years ago. kingscourt has had nothing since 2002/3 i believe and is heavily over grown. athlone mullingar either a weedsprayer or inspection car around 2002/3 was the last movement apparently. costing money all right.
    loyatemu wrote: »
    This money comes from somewhere and could be better used somewhere else - it could even be used to improve services on (say) the Ballybrophy line (I don't actually think this is a good idea, but I'd rather see the transport budget spent on running transport than maintaining old infrastructure that has zero chance of being reopened).

    you would swear we were talking about millions here. if this money even exists i suspect it will be a couple of grand to send someone to inspect the structures and nothing more. the only line which might be having a bit spent on it is rosslare waterford and even that has a 5mph speed on it now apparently, so wouldn't be costing barely anything. abandoning these lines won't bring improvements elswhere on the railway. that's not how we work in ireland.
    loyatemu wrote: »
    The big mistake in the past was selling off the land, or allowing it to fall into adverse possession, but we now have the option of turning old lines into Greenways, that's what should be done with all these lines (except maybe South Wexford as it's such a recent closure).

    turning them into greenways doesn't guarantee the land can be taken back either. just look at the uk.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    turning them into greenways doesn't guarantee the land can be taken back either. just look at the uk.

    Next to impossible to prise them from the walkers and cyclists once they've got their hands on them.
    There was a ridiculous situation in the uk where a branch could have been reopened to china clay traffic, but it was already converted into a so-called greenway. Heavy lorries thundering through small villages ended up being the only option. 'Greenway' my foot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Next to impossible to prise them from the walkers and cyclists once they've got their hands on them.
    There was a ridiculous situation in the uk where a branch could have been reopened to china clay traffic, but it was already converted into a so-called greenway. Heavy lorries thundering through small villages ended up being the only option. 'Greenway' my foot.

    yes that's right. a certain group who are supposibly huge supporters of public transport, were behind the stifeling of the project. you couldn't make it up.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    The North Kerry Greenway isn't getting any further west of the Kerry border beyond Abbeyfeale nor progressing beyond the site of 3rd(?) level crossing of Fenit branch with landowner issues, so that's at a stalemate.

    IE is in the process of transferring ownership of the Tralee/Fenit and North Kerry lines to Kerry Co Co and the two lines have to be legally abandoned first. There was an issue over ducting the fibre that's laid along the North Kerry line which delayed things but that's been resolved now and the transfer should complete over the next few weeks.

    Work is progressing on developing greenway on the sections from Tralee to Fenit and Abbeyfeale to Listowel and hopefully funding will be secured to progress these to construction in the very near future.

    Definitely think this is the only realistic sensible option for most of the other lines, except those of particular strategic value such as Limerick/Foynes.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Quackster wrote: »
    IE is in the process of transferring ownership of the Tralee/Fenit and North Kerry lines to Kerry Co Co. There was an issue over ducting the fibre that's laid along the North Kerry line which delayed things but that's been resolved now and the transfer should complete over the next few weeks.

    Work is progressing on developing greenway on the sections from Tralee to Fenit and Abbeyfeale to Listowel and hopefully funding will be secured to progress these to construction in the very near future.

    Definitely think this is the only realistic sensible option for most of the other lines, except those of particular strategic value such as Limerick/Foynes.

    CIE Property takes aeons to do anything. The transfer won't make any difference to the obstructionists.


  • Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    Don't worry, the 'obstructionists' are being dealt with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Mallow/Tralee will also make a fine Greenway in due course.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Mallow/Tralee will also make a fine Greenway in due course.

    Im looking forward to the Dublin cork Greenway !, think of the fun of trundling through the remains of Limerick Junction on my bicycle and explaining to the grandkids that " big engines, the size of which you have never seen , used to roar through here , with 1000s of passenger a week", " yeah right grandad, pul the other one "


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Quackster wrote: »
    Don't worry, the 'obstructionists' are being dealt with.

    We shall await with bated breath.

    Hopefully it won't take as long as the other railway project in Kerry, the one we were promised in no uncertain terms would be up and running by now...


  • Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    We shall await with bated breath.

    Hopefully it won't take as long as the other railway project in Kerry, the one we were promised in no uncertain terms would be up and running by now...

    That's coming along nicely. As with a great many other infrastructure projects in this state, a woefully unrealistic timeframe was peddled by our magnificent public representatives.

    I must say I find the sheer contempt towards greenways by some here to be rather baffling. Denying rural communities a real tangible benefit now out of some deluded notion that it will ever make sense to reopen many of these railways is, well, deluded.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 952 ✭✭✭hytrogen


    I work with suicide prevention amongst many other established voluntary help centres in areas like Youghal.
    With the amount of weekly suicide attempts in and around Youghal and similar coastal towns that desperately need investment, in infrastructure and amenities. A few shillings towards reopening the line and reconnecting the town with the rest of the county and country would be the best incentive anyone can give to the town in these dark days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Quackster wrote: »
    That's coming along nicely. As with a great many other infrastructure projects in this state, a woefully unrealistic timeframe was peddled by our magnificent public representatives.

    I must say I find the sheer contempt towards greenways by some here to be rather baffling. Denying rural communities a real tangible benefit now out of some deluded notion that it will ever make sense to reopen many of these railways is, well, deluded.

    it's not deluded. none of us can say that it will never make sense to reopen these railways. it clearly doesn't make sense to reopen them at the moment, but in generations to come when dublin is hopefully sorted and maxed out with the other cities on their way to being the same, areas along these former transport corridors could be right for development. granted none of us will be here.
    simply throwing a greenway on a line for the sake of it isn't the best option either. the important thing is insuring what former rail lines that haven't been abandoned remain in state hands and if needed can be reinstated as a railway as easily as possible.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    hytrogen wrote: »
    I work with suicide prevention amongst many other established voluntary help centres in areas like Youghal.
    With the amount of weekly suicide attempts in and around Youghal and similar coastal towns that desperately need investment, in infrastructure and amenities. A few shillings towards reopening the line and reconnecting the town with the rest of the county and country would be the best incentive anyone can give to the town in these dark days.

    You'll get the Trump-eens who would love to close 'focking everything' frothing at the mouth over that proposal..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 952 ✭✭✭hytrogen


    Banjoxed wrote:
    You'll get the Trump-eens who would love to close 'focking everything' frothing at the mouth over that proposal..
    ...What???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 952 ✭✭✭hytrogen


    Quackster wrote:
    I must say I find the sheer contempt towards greenways by some here to be rather baffling. Denying rural communities a real tangible benefit now out of some deluded notion that it will ever make sense to reopen many of these railways is, well, deluded.

    And deranged ideas of depriving greater economic prosperity to said rural economies isn't? Deluded he be but he sees the finite economic prospects of it through those rose tinted glasses.


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  • Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    hytrogen wrote: »
    And deranged ideas of depriving greater economic prosperity to said rural economies isn't? Deluded he be but he sees the finite economic prospects of it through those rose tinted glasses.

    Not at all. I'm all for balanced infrastructure investment between Dublin and the regions but the funds for investment are finite and must be prioritised towards infrastructure projects that will provide the maximum economic and social return.

    In the case of Youghal, the first priority ought to be the Castlemartyr bypass and completing the N25 to Cork, something that should have been done a long time ago.

    BTW, don't dismiss the economic and social potential of greenways. Us folk in Kerry aren't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    none of us can say that it will never make sense to reopen these railways.

    Within reason, there were railways built in isolated areas that never made sense, even in the days when the only competition was horse and cart.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 952 ✭✭✭hytrogen


    Quackster wrote:
    BTW, don't dismiss the economic and social potential of greenways. Us folk in Kerry aren't.

    Agreed, the old Cahersiveen line is a brilliant place to cycle along, especially along that strip of the ring, it's lethal roads though. Even though I'd prefer to leave the car behind when I'm working down there I'd be weary to cycle it with all the buses and trucks flying around the bends.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,206 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Quackster wrote: »
    Don't worry, the 'obstructionists' are being dealt with.

    that sounds a bit ominous, like they're going to end up as part of the greenway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    hytrogen wrote: »
    I work with suicide prevention amongst many other established voluntary help centres in areas like Youghal.
    With the amount of weekly suicide attempts in and around Youghal and similar coastal towns that desperately need investment, in infrastructure and amenities. A few shillings towards reopening the line and reconnecting the town with the rest of the county and country would be the best incentive anyone can give to the town in these dark days.

    I'm not putting down the good work you do (fair play) but two things strike me about this post. Re-opening the line will only connect Youghal to Cork. There is already a road network (with buses) allowing people to travel far wider range of places. I doubt re-opening the line will make any difference to the problem.

    The other thing is that I heard a lad on the radio recently, from Kerry. He made the point that Dublin can't solve your problems, they have to be solved by the locals, learning skills and establishing their own businesses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I'm not putting down the good work you do (fair play) but two things strike me about this post. Re-opening the line will only connect Youghal to Cork. There is already a road network (with buses) allowing people to travel far wider range of places. I doubt re-opening the line will make any difference to the problem.

    Cork city, or specifically the southside has had a spate of these so it's not just isolated rural areas or coastal towns. Simply reopening a railway line is not a magic bullet solution.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    areopening it (not that it will happen) would be a good way of encouraging people who wouldn't have thought about public transport before, to use it as an alternative to the car. existing roads with busses aren't really a good reason not to reopen it, it's whether it would generate enough traffic in it's own right.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,441 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    areopening it (not that it will happen) would be a good way of encouraging people who wouldn't have thought about public transport before, to use it as an alternative to the car. existing roads with busses aren't really a good reason not to reopen it, it's whether it would generate enough traffic in it's own right.

    And I'd agree that there wouldn't be much hope for youghal reopening if cobh juntion to Midleton was still one with nature but it isn't. It doesn't just connect youghal to cork. It connects to cork which connects to the wider rail network on the island.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    you'll be looking for a through service to Tuam next.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    hytrogen wrote: »
    I work with suicide prevention amongst many other established voluntary help centres in areas like Youghal.
    With the amount of weekly suicide attempts in and around Youghal and similar coastal towns that desperately need investment, in infrastructure and amenities. A few shillings towards reopening the line and reconnecting the town with the rest of the county and country would be the best incentive anyone can give to the town in these dark days.

    Youghal does need help , as does many a Town of a similar nature, but for what it would cost to re-open the line, several business initiatives could be set up bringing real jobs to the Town and helping it shift from being a seaside town.

    It's not "several shillings", it's many millions of Euro. A railway line would not bring money into the Town it would export people to work in the City, which doesn't help the local economy much.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭c montgomery


    I live in youghal and there is no need to waste money on this. Ideally spend any money improving the road from killeagh to castlemarter. It's full of potholes, dangerous to drive on a dirty night and was closed for 3 weeks this year due to flooding.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    " Irish Rail pointed out that while it is no longer obliged to operate train services on closed lines, it has to carry out structural inspections on the 387 bridges located on such routes to ensure their functionality and safety"


    Don't these bridges need to be inspected even if the rail lines are formally closed?

    The bridges could still collapse or get damaged at any time.


  • Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    " Irish Rail pointed out that while it is no longer obliged to operate train services on closed lines, it has to carry out structural inspections on the 387 bridges located on such routes to ensure their functionality and safety"


    Don't these bridges need to be inspected even if the rail lines are formally closed?

    The bridges could still collapse or get damaged at any time.

    Once the lines are formally abandoned, Irish Rail can transfer ownership (and responsibility) to the relevant county councils.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    I live in youghal and there is no need to waste money on this. Ideally spend any money improving the road from killeagh to castlemarter. It's full of potholes, dangerous to drive on a dirty night and was closed for 3 weeks this year due to flooding.

    You'll be getting your way so and in twenty years time you'll probably be one of those shouting that the railway should be put back. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    I live in youghal and there is no need to waste money on this. Ideally spend any money improving the road from Killeagh to Castlemarter. It's full of potholes, dangerous to drive on a dirty night and was closed for 3 weeks this year due to flooding.
    You'll be getting your way so and in twenty years time you'll probably be one of those shouting that the railway should be put back. :rolleyes:
    For my part, I'm not against both. But having the government controlling both is a conflict of interest, and their preference for close to a century has been towards roads. These days, no matter how much the roads are improved (they won't get emptier), not having rail as alternative (which bypasses roads) means a detriment to not only commerce but quality of life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    MGWR wrote: »
    For my part, I'm not against both. But having the government controlling both is a conflict of interest, and their preference for close to a century has been towards roads. These days, no matter how much the roads are improved (they won't get emptier), not having rail as alternative (which bypasses roads) means a detriment to not only commerce but quality of life.

    But the N25 connects Youghal to Dungarvan and Waterford, as well as Middleton & Cork, whereas there will be no railway in Deise


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    But the N25 connects Youghal to Dungarvan and Waterford, as well as Middleton & Cork, whereas there will be no railway in Deise
    I'd like to know what that means. All railways must strictly parallel all national routes or motorways?

    There used to be a railway that connected Cork to An Deise too. But some of that is being greenwayed, which means no use as far as commerce.

    My prior point stands. If you're the government and take over both main land-based modes of transport, then don't favour one over the other, and don't keep things in the 20th century as far as technology either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    My point is that opening the railway from Middleton to Youghal will only ever connect Youghal towards Cork, whereas improvements on the road connect Youghal to Cork, *and* Cork to Waterford. Which is a better return on investment. The terrain from Youghal to Dungarvan is difficult for a railway, which is why there was never one built, with the only way ever being through Cork and Mallow.
    If Cork and Waterford are to get good transport connectivity, a road seems the most obvious method.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    My point is that opening the railway from Middleton to Youghal will only ever connect Youghal towards Cork, whereas improvements on the road connect Youghal to Cork, *and* Cork to Waterford. Which is a better return on investment. The terrain from Youghal to Dungarvan is difficult for a railway, which is why there was never one built, with the only way ever being through Cork and Mallow.
    If Cork and Waterford are to get good transport connectivity, a road seems the most obvious method.

    or we could do both. it's what normal countries (even ones similar to us) do.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    or we could do both. it's what normal countries (even ones similar to us) do.

    Yes we should. Where there is clear justification such as with Navan.

    Just because there once was a railway to a country town is not sufficient reason, in and of itself, that it should ever be reopened.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Quackster wrote: »
    Just because there once was a railway to a country town is not sufficient reason, in and of itself, that it should ever be reopened.

    Just because you say that just because there once was a railway to a country town is not sufficient reason, in and of itself, that it should ever be reopened, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be reopened.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    or we could do both. it's what normal countries (even ones similar to us) do.

    With what money? There are far more pressing things that need the limited amount of it there is to go around.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    With what money? There are far more pressing things that need the limited amount of it there is to go around.

    they're are always more pressing things needing doing but that isn't a reason not to do the lesser things. in relation to this topic, it's not as if we would be reopening any potential lines today it will be 20, maybe even 50 years. hence it's vital the routes are protected.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    or we could do both. it's what normal countries (even ones similar to us) do.

    You are advocating building a brand new railway from Youghal to Waterford? and suggesting it's normal?
    When even in the days the only motorised transport was railway, a line was never built linking the 2?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    You are advocating building a brand new railway from Youghal to Waterford? and suggesting it's normal?
    When even in the days the only motorised transport was railway, a line was never built linking the 2?

    oh absolutely i do believe in decades to come re-instating a rail link between cork and waterford should be considered. where it should start from in cork i don't know however, that will be for the planners to decide should they consider it.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    Won't happen but if it were to, the obivous route would be via Mallow like before. Terrain east of Youghal would rule out Waterford by that route.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    they're are always more pressing things needing doing but that isn't a reason not to do the lesser things.

    That's a contradiction! You spend the money on the more pressing things, leaving no money for the things that don't need it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    That's a contradiction!

    no it isn't.
    n97 mini wrote: »
    You spend the money on the more pressing things, leaving no money for the things that don't need it.

    you have to leave money for the lesser needed things to be done later on.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    roundymac wrote: »
    Won't happen but if it were to, the obivous route would be via Mallow like before. Terrain east of Youghal would rule out Waterford by that route.

    Absolutely true about terrain between Youghal and Dungarvan.

    By a strange coincidence, today while browsing 1902 newspapers in the NLI, I came across a report claiming that the GS&WR was surveying a proposed route from Midleton to Lismore. Such a route would have been highly unlikely given that much of the terrain is 500 - 600 feet above sea level, possibly even worse than Youghal to Dungarvan.

    I suspect any such survey was intended to rule out such a scheme.

    Does anybody know any more about this proposal, shortly before the development of the London - Cork via Fishguard and Rosslare.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    no it isn't.



    .


    Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?


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