Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Grayson · 22-11-2016 03:46AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And why it's in our interest that the UK get the best deal possible.

We are one voice among many. There's very little we can do. Every single other country gets a veto. It's not that we can help the UK get a deal it wants it's that the UK has to come up with a deal that's acceptable to every single other country.

The irony is that the UK left to take back "democracy" and it's democracy that's going to fcuk it up.

Peregrinus · 22-11-2016 03:53AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I think if Le Pen wins it will have represented a shift in French public opinion and at that stage a Frexit is inevitable. Trying to disude the French by punishing the British is more likely to make them double down.

Unfortunately right wing nationalism and isolationism seems to be in ascendency in the West.

Well, couple of quibbles.

If the UK distances itself from the EU that isn't the EU "punishing the British"; that's the UK making choices and accepting responsibility for the consequences.

I guess what I'm saying is that, if Ireland is going to use its influence to secure a close relationship between the UK and the EU, we mainly have to use our influence with the UK. The EU already wants a close relationship with the UK - the closer the better. Ideally, they'd like them to be members. Failing that, they'd like them to join the EEA. It's the UK that is pulling away, that is trying to put up barriers. If we want there to be fewer barriers, it's the UK that we need to persuade. Specifically, the UK wants to put up barriers to migration. That has consequences that are not good for Ireland. Therefore, we want to influence the UK to put up fewer barriers, and so far as possible to choose barriers that don't have such adverse consequences for us.

As for Frexit being inevitable if Le Pen wins, I'm not so sure. Yes, Le Pen is polling well and, yes, Le Pen favours Frexit and has committed to a Frexit referendum, should she win the presidency. But that isn't necessarily the reason why people are voting for her. The same polls that show her riding high also show widespread anger and astonishment at Brexit, which is seen in France as a poorly-conceived and poorly-planned train wreck. French dissatisfaction with the EU tends to result in demands for reform, not demands for departure.

catbear · 22-11-2016 12:00PM

I don't agree with tnbe sentiment thbthbat we should accommodate the UK departure in any way. We could try but they'd still fcuk us over.

The best result is to use brexit to reduce Ireland's exposure to the UK. As for the north we're not going to stop free travel on the island. Yoiur average Brit voter has very idea of northern Ireland's status as is.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 12:08PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You mean 2nd. The UK is currently part of the EU. If it goes into recession leaving the EU it could trigger a recession in Ireland.

Yea you keep parroting that without facts.

Kotek Besar · 22-11-2016 12:09PM

catbear wrote: »

Yoiur average Brit voter has very idea of northern Ireland's status as is.

If you mean the average Brit has little idea of NI's status as is.. I'd go one step further and repeat what I've said previously on this..

I propose that most English people Brits:

Don't know whether Northern Ireland is part of the UK or not.
Don't know whether Ireland is part of the UK or not.
Don't know the correct English language name for the state of Ireland.
Have little or no knowledge of this island's history.
Think that Protestants, Catholics and the IRA are all warring tribes of Irish people that fight over religion and the Troubles were nothing to do with England.

Sad, but quite true.

Iwasfrozen · 22-11-2016 01:05PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, couple of quibbles.

If the UK distances itself from the EU that isn't the EU "punishing the British"; that's the UK making choices and accepting responsibility for the consequences.

I guess what I'm saying is that, if Ireland is going to use its influence to secure a close relationship between the UK and the EU, we mainly have to use our influence with the UK. The EU already wants a close relationship with the UK - the closer the better. Ideally, they'd like them to be members. Failing that, they'd like them to join the EEA. It's the UK that is pulling away, that is trying to put up barriers. If we want there to be fewer barriers, it's the UK that we need to persuade. Specifically, the UK wants to put up barriers to migration. That has consequences that are not good for Ireland. Therefore, we want to influence the UK to put up fewer barriers, and so far as possible to choose barriers that don't have such adverse consequences for us.

As for Frexit being inevitable if Le Pen wins, I'm not so sure. Yes, Le Pen is polling well and, yes, Le Pen favours Frexit and has committed to a Frexit referendum, should she win the presidency. But that isn't necessarily the reason why people are voting for her. The same polls that show her riding high also show widespread anger and astonishment at Brexit, which is seen in France as a poorly-conceived and poorly-planned train wreck. French dissatisfaction with the EU tends to result in demands for reform, not demands for departure.

I would have felt the same as you but polls didn't predict Brexit and they didn't predict Trump. I wouldn't put much faith in the polls that say French people won't leave. If the referendum is called there's a good chance Frexit will happen.

Iwasfrozen · 22-11-2016 01:11PM

catbear wrote: »

I don't agree with tnbe sentiment thbthbat we should accommodate the UK departure in any way. We could try but they'd still fcuk us over.

The best result is to use brexit to reduce Ireland's exposure to the UK. As for the north we're not going to stop free travel on the island. Yoiur average Brit voter has very idea of northern Ireland's status as is.

Cutting ourselves off from our most natural trading partner would harm our growth permanently.

A good analogy is how being cut off from Derry hurt Donegal's economy. Yes they were still trading with the rest of Ireland but it wasn't a perfect substitute.

Ireland needs the UK, geography can't be denied.

Iwasfrozen · 22-11-2016 01:13PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yea you keep parroting that without facts.

What part of my post do you disagree with?

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 01:20PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What part of my post do you disagree with?

That the UK is our biggest trading partner.

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 01:29PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

. . . which is the United States (exports of €26 billion).

Followed by Belgium (€14.5 billion).

And then the UK (€13.7 billion).

The UK is important to us, no doubt. But it comes a distant third behind the US and the EU-27.

Exports to Belgium (and the Netherlands) are a bit misleading for all eu countries though, as a lot of goods are shipped there and then on to other countries.

catbear · 22-11-2016 01:41PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

If you mean the average Brit has little idea of NI's status as is.. I'd go one step further and repeat what I've said previously on this..

I propose that most English people Brits:
Don't know whether Northern Ireland is part of the UK or not.

Don't know whether Ireland is part of the UK or not.

Don't know the correct English language name for the state of Ireland.

Have little or no knowledge of this island's history.

Think that Protestants, Catholics and the IRA are all warring tribes of Irish people that fight over religion and the Troubles were nothing to do with England.

Sad, but quite true.

Yes, that's what I meant, posting from phone earlier.

My experience from travels in heartland Leave voter territory has included everything from not realising that Ireland didn't vote on Brexit vote and that Ireland even as a republic is still in the UK!
Generally now when those who know there's a difference ask if I'm from the north or south, I usually reply "the east" just to wreck their head. It's pointless explaining that the republic is northerly too!

One of my favorites though has been on someone learning we use the Euro; "but how can you, that only works in Europe!"

VinLieger · 22-11-2016 01:59PM

catbear wrote: »

Yes, that's what I meant, posting from phone earlier.

My experience from travels in heartland Leave voter territory has included everything from not realising that Ireland didn't vote on Brexit vote and that Ireland even as a republic is still in the UK!
Generally now when those who know there's a difference ask if I'm from the north or south, I usually reply "the east" just to wreck their head. It's pointless explaining that the republic is northerly too!

One of my favorites though has been on someone learning we use the Euro; "but how can you, that only works in Europe!"

Education is partly to blame as they learn nothing about their history with us in school, but also the little britain, isolationist, willfully ignorant attitude thats always been bubbling under the surface and finally reared its head publicly during brexit

Kotek Besar · 22-11-2016 02:11PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Education is partly to blame as they learn nothing about their history with us in school

As someone educated in England, I concur with this. In secondary school, we did something like half a lesson on the "Irish" potato famine (so no mention of England then), and that's it. Oliver Cromwell was a great man and son of England.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 02:13PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exports to Belgium (and the Netherlands) are a bit misleading for all eu countries though, as a lot of goods are shipped there and then on to other countries.

A sale is a sale, no?

catbear · 22-11-2016 02:24PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

As someone educated in England, I concur with this. In secondary school, we did something like half a lesson on the "Irish" potato famine (so no mention of England then), and that's it. Oliver Cromwell was a great man and son of England.

From what I've read it seems to be heavily focused on key events like the Henry VIII, Elizabeth and the Spanish armada, the civil war (but only pertaining to England), Waterloo and very heavily on the Nazi regime.

Empire didn't seem to feature much.

I can imagine this England only narrative only makes confuses more than explains.

There is a saying in Anglo-Irish relations that if only the English remembered more and the Irish remembered less there'd be peace.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 02:26PM

I remember one of my mates over here debating Churchill's good and bad points. Like all politicians of the age Churchill was a mixture of good and bad points but I was surprised by how oblivious some people are to colonialism.

My friend was very apologetic for British colonialism but had a strange view of things. He said Churchill may have opposed self determination in India and Ireland but he did support partition of both countries. That's nothing to be proud of mate. He seen the troubles in the North as a tribal fight that would have came about independent from colonialism.

I think the German's are a good example of a society being aware of the damage they caused. The British have a very different view of things which exacerbated the problems in the North for example.

A Little Pony · 22-11-2016 02:31PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Go look at the history of the ties between Ulster Protestants and Britain. It isn't a coincidence that those ties have existed for centuries and they didn't wake up one day and decide to like Britain.

Turned on the British? How can a people turn on themselves?

The most ardent unionist you had, M. Thatcher considered pulling out and had her gov look into it.
That will happen again. Pragmatism will be what ends it, not romanticism, Unionist or Republican.
It is an unrequited love and has been for a long time.

*Arlene is fond of referring to 'the British' as an other entity, and she is right too, even if it is a faux pas on her behalf.

The US had theory plans on invading Britain too, utterly unrealistic and wasn't ever going to happen.

catbear · 22-11-2016 02:36PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think the German's are a good example of a society being aware of the damage they caused. The British have a very different view of things which exacerbated the problems in the North for example.

That's it in a nutshell.

A lot has happened in Europe since German reunification too regarding the past. In recent decades French and German education authorities have worked together in creating a common history curriculum but it does seem the British view seems stuck in a cold war time warp.

Kotek Besar · 22-11-2016 02:45PM

^^ bingo.

The British empire was probably the worst in the world. But we didn't get taught this in school. Not really. A a bit about the slave trade. I remember that was pretty grim. Other than that it was mainly about how great the empire was.

The more I think about it, it's true, the UK education system has got to be, by far, the main culprit. Churning out Brits who think the world wishes they were them and who are totally ignorant of reality.

Cards on table here - I'm English. Moved to Ireland in 2005. I'm an Irish citizen now, by naturalisation. Before I came to Ireland I knew it to be an EU country, like France or Spain, that was not part of the UK. I knew that NI was part of the UK. But that's all I knew. Then I began to educate myself. Oh boy..

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 03:11PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Other than that it was mainly about how great the empire was.

You must have had a very different education to me then. I don't think the British empire came up in discussion, other then with regards the slave trade and when it did, most of my teachers took great delight in telling us what bastards the British were. mind you, the same teachers took great delight in telling us how wonderful the Russian revolution was.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 03:12PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The US had theory plans on invading Britain too, utterly unrealistic and wasn't ever going to happen.

Very recent history should tell you anything can happen given a tailwind.
The old orders have crumbled elsewhere and they will here too. Especially as that 'old order' is out on it's feet and on life support (that it ain't paying for)

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 03:21PM

catbear wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell.

A lot has happened in Europe since German reunification too regarding the past. In recent decades French and German education authorities have worked together in creating a common history curriculum but it does seem the British view seems stuck in a cold war time warp.

Are you proposing a combined British/Irish history curriculum?

that should be interesting, given the propaganda that passes as history in Ireland.

darkpagandeath · 22-11-2016 03:28PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You must have had a very different education to me then. I don't think the British empire came up in discussion, other then with regards the slave trade and when it did, most of my teachers took great delight in telling us what bastards the British were. mind you, the same teachers took great delight in telling us how wonderful the Russian revolution was.

They must have missed also the British abolishing the slave trade and enforcing the ban. Did you get taught about the Irish slaves in the USA ? Black slaves were worth money White ones where not and worked to death.

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 03:51PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are you proposing a combined British/Irish history curriculum?

that should be interesting, given the propaganda that passes as history in Ireland.

like I said.......

darkpagandeath wrote: »

They must have missed also the British abolishing the slave trade and enforcing the ban. Did you get taught about the Irish slaves in the USA ? Black slaves were worth money White ones where not and worked to death.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 04:19PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You must have had a very different education to me then. I don't think the British empire came up in discussion, other then with regards the slave trade and when it did, most of my teachers took great delight in telling us what bastards the British were. mind you, the same teachers took great delight in telling us how wonderful the Russian revolution was.

It really should have. It's an important part of British history.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 04:28PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are you proposing a combined British/Irish history curriculum?

that should be interesting, given the propaganda that passes as history in Ireland.

What I'm proposing is more learning about imperialism. There seems to be very little understanding among British people of the current effects of imperialism on countries like Northern Ireland or India. Some people just shrug it off saying "imperialism is over" but imperialism is basically unionism in the north of Ireland and is still very much a thorn in the side of the Irish (and English because they pay for it in lives lost and money).

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 04:39PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It really should have. It's an important part of British history.

there are plenty of references to parts of the empire, but it isn't discussed as "We had an Empire".

it is a long time ago since I left school, so it may have changed, but most of what i recall was basically Roman Britain, Angles, Saxons and Britons, Normans, the various Kings and Queens and their wrangles, English Civil war, the slave trade and its abolition, early 20th century tinder box of europe and then WWI, Russian revolutions, League of Nations and the rise of Hitler.

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 04:43PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

What I'm proposing is more learning about imperialism. There seems to be very little understanding among British people of the current effects of imperialism on countries like Northern Ireland or India. Some people just shrug it off saying "imperialism is over" but imperialism is basically unionism in the north of Ireland and is still very much a thorn in the side of the Irish (and English because they pay for it in lives lost and money).

No, what you are saying is the school curriculum should be changed to the Irish version of history.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 04:47PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, what you are saying is the school curriculum should be changed to the Irish version of history.

Well not just Irish Fred. The general consensus of colonialism in Britain seems to be that it brought improvements to or brought civilization to those lands. There's little mention of the negative effects colonialism brought to those lands such as draining resources towards Britain ect. It takes some sort of cognitive gymnastics to think that NI isn't a colonial problem.

Iwasfrozen · 22-11-2016 04:48PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

What I'm proposing is more learning about imperialism. There seems to be very little understanding among British people of the current effects of imperialism on countries like Northern Ireland or India. Some people just shrug it off saying "imperialism is over" but imperialism is basically unionism in the north of Ireland and is still very much a thorn in the side of the Irish (and English because they pay for it in lives lost and money).

Nonsense. Unionism is nationalism.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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