Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

African American attitudes

Options
  • 13-11-2016 11:15pm
    #1
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭


    From what I have seen and heard, African Americans are generally articulate, clever and likable. They also have a lot of anger. This anger is about their historical disenfranchisement and it is justified. Calls for compensation have been made at various times. Compensation however is a complex matter. Indeed, it may actually do more harm than good.

    Free stuff, is generally bad for people and giving to present day African Americans payment for the toil of their ancestors is not going to be good for them. So, what to do?

    I believe it is the mindset of present day African Americans that needs to change if they are to improve their lot. The movement Black Lives Matter highlights the disproportionate number of African Americans killed each year by police but that may simply be because a disproportionate percentage of African Americans come from disadvantaged backgrounds and people of all complexions from disadvantaged backgrounds have a higher probability of getting into trouble with the law and by extension, they have a higher probability of being incarcerated or killed by the police.

    Also, as mentioned earlier, African Americans have within them a lot of righteous anger and I suspect this anger manifests itself in the form of passive aggressive behavior when confronted by the police. The police are trained to take control of aprehendees so any resistance resulting from passive aggressive behavior is likely to be stopped forcefully.

    In a country the size of the USA, such incidents are likely to result in the occasional fatality. So dealing with righteous anger, is in the interests of everyone but simply dropping helicopter money on black communities is not the answer, that will only make things worse.

    By contrast, Africans in Africa have begun to realize the futility of blaming Europeans (albeit with some justification) for everything. Consequently, Africa has started to take control of its own destiny for the first time since the independence era, its future is beginning to look promising.


«1345

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Black lives matters is the biggest load of crap. Rather than blaming everyone else the likes of Beyoncé & JZ should be helping clean up communities but of course they never will. Its better to try to be cool giving the black panter salute on tv than go around the ghettos.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQadlwMWYRQ


  • Options
    #3
    Nabber
    Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Africa has started to take control of its own destiny for the first time since the independence era, its future is beginning to look promising.

    Where is this happening?
    I thought Africa was still business as usual?


  • Options
    #4
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    The movement Black Lives Matter highlights the disproportionate number of African Americans killed each year by police but that may simply be because a disproportionate percentage of African Americans come from disadvantaged backgrounds and people of all complexions from disadvantaged backgrounds have a higher probability of getting into trouble with the law and by extension, they have a higher probability of being incarcerated or killed by the police.

    It's an interesting thesis. Have you checked whether the level of police scrutiny and incarceration, when controlled for socio-economic background, is the same for blacks and whites?

    I'll give you a clue: it's not.

    There is an endemic racism inherent in much of the American justice system. Coming up with twee theories to handwave it away isn't going to help.


  • Options
    #5
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    I thought people who were born in America were American? It might be my white privilege speaking but shouldn't they stop labeling themselves as something other than American if they identify as American? Samantha Mumba is Irish; Simon Zebo is Irish (can't think of any more dark-skinned Irish people to emphasise my point).


  • Options
    #6
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,990 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I thought people who were born in America were American? It might be my white privilege speaking but shouldn't they stop labeling themselves as something other than American if they identify as American? Samantha Mumba is Irish; Simon Zebo is Irish (can't think of any more dark-skinned Irish people to emphasise my point).

    It's a lazy and divisive method of segregating a social group.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,816 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I thought people who were born in America were American? It might be my white privilege speaking but shouldn't they stop labeling themselves as something other than American if they identify as American? Samantha Mumba is Irish; Simon Zebo is Irish (can't think of any more dark-skinned Irish people to emphasise my point).
    thats why many prefer the term Black. It's not "African-American Lives Matter" after all


  • Options
    #8
    mahamageehad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    Overheal wrote: »
    thats why many prefer the term Black. It's not "African-American Lives Matter" after all

    The term Black is a bit dodgy though too. For historic reasons, many are wary of using it. There's the idea that black is always negative I.e. Black sheep of the family. It's hard to keep up with what offends people these days but I can see people being wary of the term.


  • Options
    #9
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I thought people who were born in America were American? It might be my white privilege speaking but shouldn't they stop labeling themselves as something other than American if they identify as American? Samantha Mumba is Irish; Simon Zebo is Irish (can't think of any more dark-skinned Irish people to emphasise my point).

    Samantha Mumba may call herself Irish (as she is), but she calls her husband African American (because he is). Perhaps if a large community of Africans were enslaved and shipped to Ireland, deprived of their rights for generations, and segregated into a distinct community over multiple generations, before very belatedly being legally (if not entirely socially or economically) integrated into wider society, they might well identity as African Irish too.


  • Options
    #10
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Overheal wrote: »
    thats why many prefer the term Black. It's not "African-American Lives Matter" after all

    For good reason: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/28/police-killing-black-man-el-cajon-san-diego-protest


  • Options
    #11
    Palmach
    Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭Palmach


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    From what I have seen and heard, African Americans are generally articulate, clever and likable. .

    So why are so many of them in jail?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Palmach wrote: »
    So why are so many of them in jail?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-incarceration/2011/06/13/AGfIWvYH_story.html


  • Options
    #13
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Obama is an African American - his father was African (Kenyan) and his mother was American. So he is one of very few who can claim to be correctly identified as African American.

    American news outlets used to describe Mandella as African American bu he was not - he was African. American news outlets are preoccupied with race and racist labels.

    I think most Americans are also preoccupied with race - though not necessarily racist. Think back to the film 'Guess who's coming to dinner'. Why all the fuss about Obama's birth place?


  • Options
    #14
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    realitykeeper wrote: »
    The movement Black Lives Matter highlights the disproportionate number of African Americans killed each year by police but that may simply be because a disproportionate percentage of African Americans come from disadvantaged backgrounds and people of all complexions from disadvantaged backgrounds have a higher probability of getting into trouble with the law and by extension, they have a higher probability of being incarcerated or killed by the police.

    It's an interesting thesis. Have you checked whether the level of police scrutiny and incarceration, when controlled for socio-economic background, is the same for blacks and whites?

    I'll give you a clue: it's not.

    There is an endemic racism inherent in much of the American justice system. Coming up with twee theories to handwave it away isn't going to help.

    What's the explanation for things like Chicago then AFAIK a city with a mainly black administration and police?Would it's incredibly high murder rate be helped by less police scrutiny? How does policing cause the huge amount of civilians shooting civilians are they faking 5000 gun woundings
    I think it's possible for both things to be true, there is some racism in American policing and there is deep issues relating to violence in the African American community.


  • Options
    #15
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    What's the explanation for things like Chicago then AFAIK a city with a mainly black administration and police?Would it's incredibly high murder rate be helped by less police scrutiny? How does policing cause the huge amount of civilians shooting civilians are they faking 5000 gun woundings
    I think it's possible for both things to be true, there is some racism in American policing and there is deep issues relating to violence in the African American community.

    Poverty, drugs and Guns.


  • Options
    #16
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    How does policing cause the huge amount of civilians shooting civilians...
    When you can find someone who has claimed that policing causes that, you can ask them.
    I think it's possible for both things to be true, there is some racism in American policing and there is deep issues relating to violence in the African American community.
    It's a vicious cycle. Communities that feel (with reason) that they can't have faith in the justice system tend to police themselves. The alternative to a state monopoly on violence is a free market in violence.

    There's a tendency to say that black communities need to sort their own problems out. While there's an element of truth in that, it's never going to be possible until the endemic racism in the justice system is weeded out permanently.

    I've recommended Jill Leovy's excellent book Ghettoside before, and I'll take the opportunity to do so again.


  • Options
    #17
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    How does policing cause the huge amount of civilians shooting civilians...
    When you can find someone who has claimed that policing causes that, you can ask them.
    I think it's possible for both things to be true, there is some racism in American policing and there is deep issues relating to violence in the African American community.
    It's a vicious cycle. Communities that feel (with reason) that they can't have faith in the justice system tend to police themselves. The alternative to a state monopoly on violence is a free market in violence.

    There's a tendency to say that black communities need to sort their own problems out. While there's an element of truth in that, it's never going to be possible until the endemic racism in the justice system is weeded out permanently.

    I've recommended Jill Leovy's excellent book Ghettoside before, and I'll take the opportunity to do so again.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    How does policing cause the huge amount of civilians shooting civilians...
    When you can find someone who has claimed that policing causes that, you can ask them.
    I think it's possible for both things to be true, there is some racism in American policing and there is deep issues relating to violence in the African American community.
    It's a vicious cycle. Communities that feel (with reason) that they can't have faith in the justice system tend to police themselves. The alternative to a state monopoly on violence is a free market in violence.

    There's a tendency to say that black communities need to sort their own problems out. While there's an element of truth in that, it's never going to be possible until the endemic racism in the justice system is weeded out permanently.

    I've recommended Jill Leovy's excellent book Ghettoside before, and I'll take the opportunity to do so again.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    How does policing cause the huge amount of civilians shooting civilians...
    When you can find someone who has claimed that policing causes that, you can ask them.
    I think it's possible for both things to be true, there is some racism in American policing and there is deep issues relating to violence in the African American community.
    It's a vicious cycle. Communities that feel (with reason) that they can't have faith in the justice system tend to police themselves. The alternative to a state monopoly on violence is a free market in violence.

    There's a tendency to say that black communities need to sort their own problems out. While there's an element of truth in that, it's never going to be possible until the endemic racism in the justice system is weeded out permanently.

    I've recommended Jill Leovy's excellent book Ghettoside before, and I'll take the opportunity to do so again.

    Northern Ireland in the troubles even with the political killings had a lower death rate per capita a lot of the time than some US inner city areas and this was a society with literal police no go areas.
    Isn't the issue that as well as distrust of official justice for obvious reasons is that they don't police themselves either.


  • Options
    #18
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Isn't the issue that as well as distrust of official justice for obvious reasons is that they don't police themselves either.
    No, that's not the issue. Policing isn't something that spontaneously occurs from disorder. The reason there were lower crime rates in Northern Ireland is that the role of the police was partly fulfilled by paramilitary organisations. Inner cities in the US are a completely different scenario.


  • Options
    #19
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    The only way things will change is when the black community stop acting like victims & start owning some of the problems they face.
    Look at the UK a 14 year old boy gets stabbed to death at 2am on a school night by another black youth. The mothers on tv crying, he was a good boy never in trouble yadda yadda ya. Next thing theres pictures of said boy doing gang signs on facebook turns out hes a member of some postcode gang. Not to say why was he out at 2am? Why are the parents letting him out that late?
    The in the USA a guy gets shot by police, yes the police in some cases have over reacted but if the police tell you to get down you get down, you don't start talking back & keep walking down the street.
    Black, White , Hispanic any other if your childs out at 2am on a school night & gets killed you only have yourself to blame, the same if you get shot by police if you cant respect the officer & do what your told.
    Rap/ Hip Hop music videos don't help the situation either.


  • Options
    #20
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    The only way things will change is when the black community stop acting like victims & start owning some of the problems they face.
    One of the problems they face is endemic racism in the justice system. How do they go about owning that?


  • Options
    #21
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    The in the USA a guy gets shot by police, yes the police in some cases have over reacted but if the police tell you to get down you get down, you don't start talking back & keep walking down the street.
    I'd suggest that shooting someone for walking down a road is pretty much always an 'over reaction'. Police don't, or shouldn't, have carte blanche to kill people because they don't do what they're told.
    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Black, White , Hispanic any other if your childs out at 2am on a school night & gets killed you only have yourself to blame,
    This blame the victim business is a strong theme with you.
    Help!!!! wrote: »
    the same if you get shot by police if you cant respect the officer & do what your told.
    Not the victim's fault there, either. Police have a right to defend themselves, but no right to shoot people who don't show them sufficient respect.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    alastair wrote: »
    I'd suggest that shooting someone for walking down a road is pretty much always an 'over reaction'. Police don't, or shouldn't, have carte blanche to kill people because they don't do what they're told.


    This blame the victim business is a strong theme with you.


    Not the victim's fault there, either. Police have a right to defend themselves, but no right to shoot people who don't show them sufficient respect.

    I'm not blaming any victims what I'm saying is that there's always more to a story. If the police see a guy on the street & straight out shoot them then yes throw the book at them, if the police want to talk to a suspect & the suspect doesn't do as he's told then, he has to take some of the blame. Police have a very hard job, they don't know if their going to go home at the end of their shift. Do you really think a police officer wakes up in the morning & thinks ah I'll go shoot some black lad today? Yes there are racists in the police force & there are black officers who over step the mark. But there are a lot more good than bad


  • Options
    #23
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I thought people who were born in America were American? It might be my white privilege speaking but shouldn't they stop labeling themselves as something other than American if they identify as American? Samantha Mumba is Irish; Simon Zebo is Irish (can't think of any more dark-skinned Irish people to emphasise my point).
    African Americans are just as proud of their heritage as Irish Americans are of theirs. So no, they should label themselves if that is what they want.


  • Options
    #24
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's an interesting thesis. Have you checked whether the level of police scrutiny and incarceration, when controlled for socio-economic background, is the same for blacks and whites?

    I'll give you a clue: it's not.

    There is an endemic racism inherent in much of the American justice system. Coming up with twee theories to handwave it away isn't going to help.

    But what about passive aggression on the part of African Americans toward the police. Does that not undermine your racist argument?


  • Options
    #25
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Nabber wrote: »
    Where is this happening?
    I thought Africa was still business as usual?
    You thought wrong. Rwanda is setting the example and many African countries are following their lead.


  • Options
    #26
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Palmach wrote: »
    So why are so many of them in jail?
    I told you but you stopped reading.


  • Options
    #27
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Obama is an African American - his father was African (Kenyan) and his mother was American. So he is one of very few who can claim to be correctly identified as African American.
    His mother was a European American so really he is an African-European American.


  • Options
    #28
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    One of the problems they face is endemic racism in the justice system. How do they go about owning that?
    I am not convinced there is endemic racism in American policing. The police simple do not tolerate blackguards.


  • Options
    #29
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,036 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    African Americans are just as proud of their heritage as Irish Americans are of theirs. So no, they should label themselves if that is what they want.

    America is a county of migrants.

    When Paddy got off the boat during the famine no one cared if he was from Cork or Mayo or Galway, all they knew was that he was Irish, that's when Irish identity first came to the fore.
    Same with Germans, Polish etc.

    At this stage many Irish Americans could not find Ireland on the map but they still call themselves Irish to be distinct from other groups.

    Same goes for African Americans, the African part is to acknowledge their origin, which they are well entitled to do.


  • Options
    #30
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    I'm not blaming any victims what I'm saying is that there's always more to a story. If the police see a guy on the street & straight out shoot them then yes throw the book at them, if the police want to talk to a suspect & the suspect doesn't do as he's told then, he has to take some of the blame.

    No he doesn't, and that's precisely what blaming the victim means.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    vetinari
    Registered Users Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭vetinari


    I feel any discussion about incarceration rates should start with a simple question.
    Do you think black people are different?
    If say people from Michigan had an incarceration rate 6 times higher than the national average, people would be questioning the system not what people in Michigan need to do differently.

    Black and hispanic neighborhoods have had essentially had a police invasion under the pretext of a drug war.
    I have to say as a white middle class guy who moved to Boston 10 years ago, I've never lived in a police occupied area.
    Some minorities live in areas where they'll encounter police every week. I've probably talked directly to a police officer3 times in 10 years here.

    I shudder to think how many run ins with the law I'd have if every time I was coming home after a night out, I was stopped and questioned by a police officer. When people talk about systemic racism, it manifests itself as all races using drugs in equal measures but only some of them getting locked up for it.


Advertisement