Louise O Neill on rape culture.

demfad · 10-11-2016 01:09PM

FortySeven wrote: »

A child has a right to see both parents. Human rights legislation.

Courts award access, yes. Mothers choose not to allow this to happen.

Now go and compare mothers punished for this by the courts and fathers not paying maintenence.

I'll give you a clue. One is zero, the other fills our prison system.

Please don't pretend that you are not well aware of this fact and stop wasting my time.

I'm out. Due to mod warning earlier. Please do not equate this as a win, if I wasn't a step away from a permaban I would devote the rest of my day to wiping the floor with you.

Again you have not supplied any substantiation for any of this. The reality is that in most cases a woman needs a court order to legally stop a father from accessing the children. Your comments about the prisons being full of fathers who don't pay their maintenance is made up. I would say that Fathers not prepared to contribute financially to helping their children might not have the children's best welfare as a priority (there may be exceptions).

10-11-2016 01:09PM

Rape, consent, sexuality, masculinity, femininity, these are issues which strike at the core of who we are. People like Louise O Neil want to divide. They aren't interested in equality only hate and anger. I would never identify as feminist because it has become in my eyes a movement where men are seen as evil predators who would rape as soon as look at you, who belittle women and talk crudely about what they would like to do to us. It's a horrible attitude and a very sad one.

I'm interested in treating human beings with respect and compassion regardless of their gender. The notion of a rape culture in Ireland is ridiculous.

demfad · 10-11-2016 01:10PM

FortySeven wrote: »

A child has a right to see both parents. Human rights legislation.

Courts award access, yes. Mothers choose not to allow this to happen.

Now go and compare mothers punished for this by the courts and fathers not paying maintenence.

I'll give you a clue. One is zero, the other fills our prison system.

Please don't pretend that you are not well aware of this fact and stop wasting my time.

I'm out. Due to mod warning earlier. Please do not equate this as a win, if I wasn't a step away from a permaban I would devote the rest of my day to wiping the floor with you.

Again you have not supplied any substantiation for any of this. The reality is that in most cases a woman needs a court order to legally stop a father from accessing the children. Your comments about the prisons being full of fathers who don't pay their maintenance is made up. I would say that Fathers not prepared to contribute financially to helping their children might not have the children's best welfare as a priority.

cats pyjamas · 10-11-2016 01:11PM

demfad wrote: »

FortySeven wrote: »

Handily skirting the issue that they are fighting for rights that are currently law for children who cannot fight for themselves.

It is law. Women are not respecting the law and their children suffer for it.

Tell me what Ares women are still struggling for equality in?

Dont be ridiculous. It is the courts who uphold the law on behalf of children not women's or men's groups. The court decides what is best for the child and rightly so? What's your problem with this?

When the courts also decide someone is not guilty of rape the stats are used by certain groups to try prove a rape culture.

So the courts are always right?

ligerdub · 10-11-2016 01:13PM

This thread has lost its way. Unfollow.

Godspeed all.

ligerdub · 10-11-2016 01:14PM

This thread has lost its way. Unfollow.

Godspeed all.

demfad · 10-11-2016 01:19PM

cats pyjamas wrote: »

When the courts also decide someone is not guilty of rape the stats are used by certain groups to try prove a rape culture.

So the courts are always right?

I have only your word on that. You will need to elaborate on who is making this claim, exactly what it is based on and why you deem it relevant.

The point here is that legislation is based on children's rights and NOT fathers rights or mothers rights. As it should be.

Pat Mustard · 10-11-2016 01:20PM

demfad wrote: »

As an example of the latter in the almost 3 decades that it became illegal for a husband to rape his wife there has only been one conviction. Although the box has been ticked in legislation clearly Irish society does not believe that a husband can rape his wife. That is rape culture.

Of all the possible reasons for a low number of convictions, the reason selected is that 'Irish society does does not believe that a husband can rape his wife'.

Evidence to support argument: zero.

Conclusion: rape culture.

No logical progression. No explanation. Just rape culture, innit?

Makes as much sense as 'computer says no'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOdjCb4LwQY

demfad · 10-11-2016 01:30PM

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Of all the possible reasons for a low number of convictions, the reason selected is that 'Irish society does does not believe that a husband can rape his wife'.

Evidence to support argument: zero.

Conclusion: rape culture.

No logical progression. No explanation. Just rape culture, innit?

Makes as much sense as 'computer says no'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOdjCb4LwQY

Nice try! If you cut out the logical progression from a quote, you can always claim the quote has no logical progression.

Full quote below.

demfad wrote: »

Lets be fair. It is not feminism that seeks to define what masculinity and femininity should be. Our culture defines it. Our culture should be accepting and tolerant enough to allow children to be themselves as feminism does.
It is problematic when 'masculinity' in a culture that tells boys that learning is for nerds, or 'femininity' means there is something wrong girls who like sports or to play with boys or whatever. That is wrong and you are barking up the wrong tree to attach the blame to feminism. Feminism addresses this.

As regards the OP scholarly studies have shown that the motives for domestic violence rape etc, (even family annihilation which is pertinent recently) tend to revolve around a sense of male superiority/entitlement of the perpetrator. If our culture brings us up to believe that boys are better than girls then some boys will grow into men who will be capable of these crimes and such a society will make it difficult for justice to be done.

As an example of the latter in the almost 3 decades that it became illegal for a husband to rape his wife there has only been one conviction. Although the box has been ticked in legislation clearly Irish society does not believe that a husband can rape his wife. That is rape culture.

jimgoose · 10-11-2016 01:32PM

demfad wrote: »

Nice try! If you cut out the logical progression from a quote, you can always claim the quote has no logical progression.

Full quote below.

"Masculinity" is not telling boys and young men that learning is for nerds. "Thickness" is.

Muahahaha · 10-11-2016 01:34PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

Well go on then.
Pick a number. The only hard number we have (35 per year) obviously doesn't suit your agenda.

eh yet again, no. We have the stats from the Rape Crisis Centers all around the country on how many rapes are reported to them. It is your agenda who wants to ignore how much rape goes on that never gets reported to the Gardai or prosecuted.

In 2015 12,615 people contacted the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre. What do you think those 12,615 people were doing, ringing up and talking about fake rapes for the craic? You would want to be some sort of imbecile to believe that.

Widdershins · 10-11-2016 01:35PM

demfad wrote: »

Lets be fair. It is not feminism that seeks to define what masculinity and femininity should be. Our culture defines it. Our culture should be accepting and tolerant enough to allow children to be themselves as feminism does.
It is problematic when 'masculinity' in a culture that tells boys that learning is for nerds, or 'femininity' means there is something wrong girls who like sports or to play with boys or whatever. That is wrong and you are barking up the wrong tree to attach the blame to feminism. Feminism addresses this.

There is nothing wrong with traditional gender roles. Nobody is obliged to adhere to them. Anyone can reject them, and can reject their gender as well.It's feminism in it's new incarnation that seeks to label those who don't sit neatly into a role, whether they want the label or not. There is no sense in attempting to address something that's not a problem.
And as the other poster said teLling boys that learning is for girls isn't an enforcement of any societal construct of masculinity. There's no tradition of boys being discouraged from learning, in wider society.

demfad · 10-11-2016 01:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Rape, consent, sexuality, masculinity, femininity, these are issues which strike at the core of who we are. People like Louise O Neil want to divide. They aren't interested in equality only hate and anger. I would never identify as feminist because it has become in my eyes a movement where men are seen as evil predators who would rape as soon as look at you, who belittle women and talk crudely about what they would like to do to us. It's a horrible attitude and a very sad one.

I'm interested in treating human beings with respect and compassion regardless of their gender. The notion of a rape culture in Ireland is ridiculous.

You have put words in a person's mouth that they have not say and prescribed motives that they don't have with no reasoning or substantiation.

The president elect of the USA has talked openly about sexually assaulting women. He has been accused of same by dozens of women. Do you deny this and if not how do you explain it?

jimgoose · 10-11-2016 01:38PM

Widdershins wrote: »

...And as the other poster said teLling boys that learning is for girls isn't an enforcement of any societal construct of masculinity. There's no tradition of boys being discouraged from learning, in wider society.

A friend of mine is an engineer, in every true sense of the word. This guy collects Master's degrees in Impossible'n'Complicated like baseball cards, munches C-code for breakfast and can't resist dismantling and researching all around him when something like a lightbulb blows. He's also the kind of chap who cuts his skull-loaf with a (in fairness, clean) handsaw, because to him it makes just as much sense as anything else! :pac::pac::pac:

cats pyjamas · 10-11-2016 01:39PM

demfad wrote: »

cats pyjamas wrote: »

When the courts also decide someone is not guilty of rape the stats are used by certain groups to try prove a rape culture.

So the courts are always right?

I have only your word on that. You will need to elaborate on who is making this claim, exactly what it is based on and why you deem it relevant.

The point here is that legislation is based on children's rights and NOT fathers rights or mothers rights. As it should be.

And the courts should look after children's rights. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

I have a problem when people are using court findings to try prove their own point without elaborating on the facts of each individual case (not you btw). Go back a few pages and it is there.

demfad · 10-11-2016 01:41PM

Widdershins wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with traditional gender roles. Nobody is obliged to adhere to them.
Anyone can reject them, and can reject their gender as well.It's feminism in it's new incarnation that seeks to label those who don't sit neatly into a role, whether they want the label or not. There is no sense in attempting to address something that's not a problem.

As has been pointed out already the main personality characteristic common to those who commit rape, domestic violence, femicide and family annihilation is a sense of male entitlement. Do you still think there isn't an issue with 'traditional' gender roles?

Mortpourvelo · 10-11-2016 01:45PM

demfad wrote: »

As has been pointed out already the main personality characteristic common to those who commit rape, domestic violence, femicide and family annihilation is a sense of male entitlement. Do you still think there isn't an issue with 'traditional' gender roles?

Anyone can feel as entitled as they want, if you refuse to let them they're screwed.

Someone gropes you in a bar ? Smack them.
Your boyfriend tells you that you can't see your friends ? Dump him.
God forbid he lays a hand on you ? Kick him out and have him prosecuted. After smacking him.
Don't want attention ? Don't go out dressed in something Miley Cyrus would think too revealing.

You are responsible for your own life. Remember that.

mzungu · 10-11-2016 01:47PM

demfad wrote: »

As an example of the latter in the almost 3 decades that it became illegal for a husband to rape his wife there has only been one conviction. Although the box has been ticked in legislation clearly Irish society does not believe that a husband can rape his wife.

Irish society is OK about rape within marriage? Really? Any evidence aside from lack of convictions for a crime that is extremely difficult to prove? It is because rape is such a serious crime that the burden of proof is so high. I have asked this before in the thread and I will ask it again. Would those who wish to see higher convictions like the standards of proof to be dropped?

That is rape culture.

A rape culture is where society condones and endorses rape. Irish society does nothing of the sort. Yes, we do have sexual assaults, unfortunately. But making out we have a rape culture is hyperbole.

Mortpourvelo · 10-11-2016 01:53PM

mzungu wrote: »

Irish society is OK about rape within marriage? Really? Any evidence aside from lack of convictions for a crime that is extremely difficult to prove? It is because rape is such a serious crime that the burden of proof is so high. I have asked this before in the thread and I will ask it again. Would those who wish to see higher convictions like the standards of proof to be dropped?

A rape culture is where society condones and endorses rape. Irish society does nothing of the sort. Yes, we do have sexual assaults, unfortunately. But making out we have a rape culture is hyperbole.

I said it before but clearly it needs saying again.

A "rape culture" is Bosnia in the 90s or Nigeria now. Where rape is seen as a perfectly legitimate war tactic.

We don't have that, never have.

What we do have - and not just Ireland - is a gradual change of terminology.

In previous years if someone grabbed yer backside, they'd get an "oy get lost" or a slap.

Now that person would be a "victim of sexual abuse".

Jimmy Savile was no doubt a sicko, but one of his "crimes" was to put his arm around a girl on Top of the Pops!!! That is NOT indecent assault ffs!!!

The only "culture" here is the wallowing in victimhood without actually have a crime committed against you.

Seriously, go talk to a survivor of the Bosnian rape camps and tell them you're the same because Lorcan grabbed your a**e in Coppers. I dare ya.

Advbrd · 10-11-2016 01:53PM

I have seen "boys are told learning is for nerds" or similar in a number of posts. Am I living on a different planet? I have never experienced this and never heard anyone claim this before. Where is this happening?

me_right_one · 10-11-2016 01:55PM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Anyone can feel as entitled as they want, if you refuse to let them they're screwed.
Someone gropes you in a bar ? Smack them.

Your boyfriend tells you that you can't see your friends ? Dump him.

God forbid he lays a hand on you ? Kick him out and have him prosecuted. After smacking him.

Don't want attention ? Don't go out dressed in something Miley Cyrus would think too revealing.

You are responsible for your own life. Remember that.

Kudos Mortpourvelo. So glad to hear that coming from a normal Irish woman.

Widdershins · 10-11-2016 01:57PM

demfad wrote: »

As has been pointed out already the main personality characteristic common to those who commit rape, domestic violence, femicide and family annihilation is a sense of male entitlement. Do you still think there isn't an issue with 'traditional' gender roles?

Male entitlement is nothing to do with traditional gender roles! A sense of entitlement to overpower someone isn't and never has been encouraged as a masculine trait. You are putting far too much meaning into traditional gender roles.
If anything men were traditionally raised to see their role as a protector of women. Not so long ago, feminism railed against the idea that we need protection! Or that men should feel a duty to be strong and able to defend.

Mortpourvelo · 10-11-2016 01:59PM

Advbrd wrote: »

I have seen "boys are told learning is for nerds" or similar in a number of posts. Am I living on a different planet? I have never experienced this and never heard anyone claim this before. Where is this happening?

I see the opposite - girls in mixed sex schools "dumbing down" because "no one wants a brainy girlfriend"

jimgoose · 10-11-2016 02:03PM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

...Seriously, go talk to a survivor of the Bosnian rape camps and tell them you're the same because Lorcan grabbed your a**e in Coppers. I dare ya.

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Bravo, Madam - Bravo!!

tritium · 10-11-2016 02:04PM

demfad wrote: »

As has been pointed out already the main personality characteristic common to those who commit rape, domestic violence, femicide and family annihilation is a sense of male entitlement. Do you still think there isn't an issue with 'traditional' gender roles?

Do the 40% of domestic abusers who are female also have a sense of male entitlement?

Mortpourvelo · 10-11-2016 02:09PM

tritium wrote: »

Do the 40% of domestic abusers who are female also have a sense of male entitlement?

Wait for the "they're not abusers, they're only doing it because they were abused first".

Maybe I AM gender fluid ? Women mystify me!!!!

Advbrd · 10-11-2016 02:14PM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

I see the opposite - girls in mixed sex schools "dumbing down" because "no one wants a brainy girlfriend"

Well here's one man who does. It's pretty sad if this is happening. My daughter is in first year and is doing very well and loving it. My son is nearly eight and is also doing very well. I have to make sure to keep him on the "nerdy" path.

Advbrd · 10-11-2016 02:17PM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Wait for the "they're not abusers, they're only doing it because they were abused first".

Maybe I AM gender fluid ? Women mystify me!!!!

Yeah, they mystify me also. That's what makes it all so fabulous.

demfad · 10-11-2016 02:19PM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

[*]Your boyfriend tells you that you can't see your friends ? Dump him.
[*]God forbid he lays a hand on you ? Kick him out and have him prosecuted. After smacking him.
[*]Don't want attention ? Don't go out dressed in something Miley Cyrus would think too revealing.
[/LIST]
You are responsible for your own life. Remember that.

Blaming women for domestic violence and assault now?

Why don't you read a few case studies on domestic violence and try and educate yourself as to it's insidious nature.

Zulu · 10-11-2016 02:25PM

Advbrd wrote: »

I have seen "boys are told learning is for nerds" or similar in a number of posts. Am I living on a different planet? I have never experienced this and never heard anyone claim this before. Where is this happening?

Nationally speaking: In reality it's not, it's only in happening in someone's imagination.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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