Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

LLMMLL · 28-10-2016 11:15PM

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

I think he means that they are assuming men will be a danger to women unless they take this class to teach them not to rape basically.

I would worry what would happen to students that would refuse to take it - especially students doing serious courses (STEM) ... not all students go to college to toss of and do arts for 3 years...

You're still assuming that the guy who posted that article has represented it correctly. It has nothing to do with the college. The student union are calling for the classes to be introduced. The SU has zero power to introduce any mandatory class. It also says TCD are planning to introduce them September 2016. I haven't seen any reference to them in TCD. Its complete bull.

mzungu · 28-10-2016 11:18PM

maregal wrote: »

Sorry that you feel that way mate but you're letting females control your emotions. Forget about them altogether and focus on self-improvement. Go to the gym and eat right to get into the best physical shape of your life. Work hard at your job, stash your cash and get that promotion. Read philosophy to understand the world and find inner peace. I suggest starting with the works of Stefan Molyneux for a dose of the red pill. I guarantee you'll feel happier and you'll learn to laugh at the betas bending over backwards to please an ungrateful female.

A quick google shows that he blames women for all wars, stds, drug abuse and promiscuity. It is safe to assume he is one of these "Red Pill" gurus who blames all women for just about everything bad that has ever happened in the world. In other words, a nutter and to be avoided like the plague.

Jan_de_Bakker · 28-10-2016 11:20PM

Just to be clear - the reason I mentioned STEM students was generally these courses have a lot more work then others, I know if I was back in college (Applied Physics and Computing) I had better things to be doing then be told not to molest the 19 year old co-eds in the dorm...

Mister Vain · 28-10-2016 11:27PM

cantdecide wrote: »

love, romance and the pursuit thereof gives me a shiver.

Approaching women in bars and online is soul destroying to me.

This is exactly how I feel. I gave up trying to meet women the conventional way and I am a lot happier as a result. I'm enjoying doing the things I like and have met some great people along the way. I'd still like to meet someone but the drinking/dating culture here is really depressing. I haven't given up hope, but I'm no longer pursuing avenues which are making me unhappy. I feel a lot better in myself and have more confidence now.

Ryertex · 28-10-2016 11:30PM

In previous generations there was a culture of women being subservient to men and a lot of women were content with that because it was normal. The present generation of women have won back a lot of ground so to speak. I also wonder if men have allowed this because of a subconscious guilt over what happened in the past.

FloatingVoter · 28-10-2016 11:38PM

Back end of the 77 back again from town. This is maybe about how hard it is for those unfortunate in looks to get a chance. The same conversation could be had in the Ladies Lounge.
Except yes, we are the ones who must go forth and make a pass. My problem is by the time the opportunity to suggest something else, I've already made a friend.
Result being - a friendless and empty life.
To those younger and feeling left out, the "creeps" are the pick-up merchants that leave nothing but damaged people in their wake. Those guys are too stupid to know it and never will. If you're lucky enough to meet some of what they leave behind, she is a lady, be nice and don't expect anything in return. When she moves on just remember the good conversations and hope for tomorrow.
I always hope the phone will ring and she'll be there. It's normally Vodafone with a fantastic new offer.

Kal El · 28-10-2016 11:39PM

orubiru wrote: »

For me most of the MGTOW movement seems to be characterised by bitterness towards women and a lot of MGTOWs I've seen online are actual misogynists.

There's seems to be a lot of "I am so sick of women and so sick of society favouring women and so scared I'll sleep with a lady and then be accused of rape so I am done".

There's not a lot of "Meh, I've had enough so i'm just going to play games and watch football until I die. See ya!"

It's less Men Going Their Own Way and more Men Who Rant About Hating Women. That's my view anyway.

Maybe that's a common criticism of MGTOW though?

Im not sure what this MGTOW is but it seems everything that goes against the norm towards women is viewed as guys being misogynists and hating women

mzungu · 28-10-2016 11:45PM

Kal El wrote: »

Im not sure what this MGTOW is but it seems everything that goes against the norm towards women is viewed as guys being misogynists and hating women

The short version: Lads annoyed at not being able to pick up women, so have decided to create a "philosophy" whereby they remove themselves from the dating sphere in order to reassert their masculinity.

The long in-depth version: Lads annoyed at not being able to pick up women, so have decided to create a "philosophy" whereby they remove themselves from the dating sphere in order to reassert their masculinity.

FloatingVoter · 29-10-2016 12:06AM

mzungu wrote: »

The short version: Lads annoyed at not being able to pick up women, so have decided to create a "philosophy" whereby they remove themselves from the dating sphere in order to reassert their masculinity.

The long in-depth version: Lads annoyed at not being able to pick up women, so have decided to create a "philosophy" whereby they remove themselves from the dating sphere in order to reassert their masculinity.

That's the Japanese eejits. I'd assumed in traditional Boards style we'd left the original point / poster behind a long time ago.
I'm not annoyed and I've never been in a position to say "I'll get ten pints, pick up a woman and bag of chips on the way back to hers". 14 year old virgins say that. Ten years later they're doing it for real. I envy them for the ability. I pity the women that fall for it time and again. And yes, I am coming to the point of ceasing to care.
And it isn't sex....it's company. Stuck in a supermarket, wishing she was there to debate what to get for dinner. Arguing about what to tape and what to watch. Humdrum magic.

mzungu · 29-10-2016 12:28AM

FloatingVoter wrote: »

That's the Japanese eejits.

The Japanese case is very different. Over there both men and women are seemingly completely disinterested in sex and/or relationships. One thing they are not doing, is announcing it as a grandiose philosophy like the MGTOW crew. There is no movement behind what is happening in Japan, it would appear to be more a case of apathy.

The results of the survey, which was conducted in June of last year, say that 69 percent of male respondents and 59 percent of women respondents do not have an opposite-sex kōsai aite, a term that translates directly as “interaction partner.” And of these respondents in total, 30 percent say they have no “hope” for such a relationship. Moreover, 42 percent of both sexes remain virgins.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/10/01/national/media-national/theres-nothing-weird-sexless-japan/#.WBPdn-ErKL8

With that said, the author of a recent study of the phenomenon said the high numbers might be explained by the changing concepts of what is meant by "female friend" being misread on the survey.

The author has argued that the concept of “female friend” has changed over time, which has contributed to the confusion. Thirty years ago, when the government's survey was conducted for the first time, men believed that all relationships with women were potentially sexual and this is no longer the case

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japan-sex-problem-maki-fukasawa-a7347456.html

FloatingVoter · 29-10-2016 12:41AM

I would have a very cogent argument prepared but I'll settle for what happens in Japan stays in Japan. As for surveys and statistics in general, I'm with Mark Twain.

Aurum · 29-10-2016 03:17AM

maregal wrote: »

Education system favours the female brain. Universities are packed with more females than males. SJW and politically correct dogma is shoved down your throat at these institutions.

Higher education was designed entirely by and for men. It’s only in the last century that women were allowed to attend universities, and only in the last 50-ish years that they did so in statistically significant numbers. According to the Irish Universities Association the gender balance between males and females attending undergraduate courses is 50:50, though there are more female postgrads. Also, in Irish universities, more males than females get firsts. Nothing here even hints at a systemic bias against men.

intheclouds · 29-10-2016 08:52AM

BrianD3 wrote: »

Funny that - when I search thejournal.ie for Female AND CEO I get 21000 hits. Whereas if I search for just CEO (a much less restrictive search) I get 32000 hits. I suspect that you have willfully misunderstood my point or simply don't understand what sort of result you will get if you search for the term CEO on a media website. There are more male CEOs than women CEOs. If you just search for CEO you'll get articles that mention CEOs in passing. Many of these CEOs will be men. Many will be women.

This doesn't alter that fact that there are thousands of hits on the topic of employment/careers from various media organizations bemoaning that there aren't enough female CEOS or else glorifying those women that make CEO. Which was my point. Which is why you are the one talking nonsense.

Again I'll ask you, links please?

I'm just not seeing all these articles about female CEOs with an absence of articles about male CEOs which is what your original claim was?

A_Sober_Paddy · 29-10-2016 09:04AM

Owryan wrote: »

Really not sure what to make of the opening post. Robin Williams had depression before he got married. Women are just as much affected by the jobs situation.

I routinely hold my kids hands in the park and on the town without being labeled a paedo. I ve also worked with vulnerable children without being accused of same.

Society changes maybe that's the reason.

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/36322279?client=ms-android-motorola

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/aug/18/will-self-reported-suspected-paedophile

silverharp · 29-10-2016 11:07AM

mzungu wrote: »

The short version: Lads annoyed at not being able to pick up women, so have decided to create a "philosophy" whereby they remove themselves from the dating sphere in order to reassert their masculinity.

The long in-depth version: Lads annoyed at not being able to pick up women, so have decided to create a "philosophy" whereby they remove themselves from the dating sphere in order to reassert their masculinity.

so a good strategy for them if the odds arent in their favor? looking on it does seem like economics and the modern dating and the Tiderisation of dating is creating a "drought" for some young men particularly in large US cities. the common way its put is that 80% of women are chasing 20% of men. Under such a regime opting out isnt insane. I guess what these younger men in their early 20's might be missing is that they only hit their peak in their early 30's so they could be more positive about the whole thing
Also these guys probably grew up in divorced homes so maybe going through what their dads might have done horrifies them especially if divorce is like 50% in the US

Owryan · 29-10-2016 11:17AM

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/36322279?client=ms-android-motorola

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/aug/18/will-self-reported-suspected-paedophile

2 instances don't make an argument. I could post hundreds of random photos of men holding their child's hand without being labeled a paedo which the op suggested was a regular occurrence.

Actually I ll be bringing my kids to the pool after, I ll prob see them naked, should I expect the gardai to swoop in and arrest me?

Wanderer78 · 29-10-2016 11:28AM

Aurum wrote:

Higher education was designed entirely by and for men. Itâ€™s only in the last century that women were allowed to attend universities, and only in the last 50-ish years that they did so in statistically significant numbers. According to the Irish Universities Association the gender balance between males and females attending undergraduate courses is 50:50, though there are more female postgrads. Also, in Irish universities, more males than females get firsts. Nothing here even hints at a systemic bias against men.

Our educational systems are designed to create 'worker drones' of both males and females, whereby participants follow orders, not question piers, listen and repeat, and do not encourage self development or awareness. they effectively are 'factories', whereby, 'one size' fits all, which has no resemblance on reality. They are examples of what I call 'hyper competitive' systems which are destructive for society as a whole

silverharp · 29-10-2016 11:52AM

the thing is education is always given in aggregate , however if you break it down men tend to go into the more important and more lucrative areas. this chart is looking at Phd's . Ive a son growing up but I'd steer him away from all the softer areas, too many people chasing government type jobs with limited potential

Thelomen Toblackai · 29-10-2016 11:57AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Our educational systems are designed to create 'worker drones' of both males and females, whereby participants follow orders, not question piers, listen and repeat, and do not encourage self development or awareness. they effectively are 'factories', whereby, 'one size' fits all, which has no resemblance on reality. They are examples of what I call 'hyper competitive' systems which are destructive for society as a whole

Not saying this is the case with yourself but I most often here this argument from those who don't have a third level education or those who graduated by doing the bare minimum.

They seem to think the education system is supposed to configure them to walk into the world with their opinion worth something even though they don't even take learning or developing their own opinion seriously. They end up with a degree in something they couldn't give two ****s about having dragged themselves through exams by learning enough facts to answer the questions and then turn around and blame the education system for not spitting them out as a finished product ready to change the world.

From what I see the education system is supposed to educate. Give you knowledge, teach you how to find knowledge and teach you how to apply that knowledge in different ways. Sure it could and should be better in almost all aspects but it's not the reason most people are "worker drones".

The mindset and intelligence you use to apply what you learn doesn't solely come from school. If the vast majority of people don't care about education or the area they are studying and want to do other things at the expense of developing a good foundation for applying themselves and becoming an expert in their field then all they will be suited for is drone work. They are natural drones happy to do the minimum, happy to have their weekend of fun as a reward for a weeks work and happy do it all again the following week. They themselves develop that habit and choose to live like that, it's not enforced by the education system.

So those who end up doing the grunt work\drone work are those who never took learning seriously and expect everything to be handed to them. Those who don't end up in those positions are those who got from the education system the foundation upon which to build on with their own interest in learning, passion for a particular area and progressing and growing as human beings.

eviltwin · 29-10-2016 12:08PM

Kal El wrote: »

Im not sure what this MGTOW is but it seems everything that goes against the norm towards women is viewed as guys being misogynists and hating women

I don't think men - or women - choosing to remain single is a bad thing and not a sign of a hatred of the opposite sex.

MGTOW are a different breed however. They have to make a big deal of it. Their reasons tend to be a blanket judgment that all women are bitches who are out to get you. They are smug and seem to think they have a better insight than men in relationships. They seem unable to accept that some men can be happy and fulfilled in a relationship.

A_Sober_Paddy · 29-10-2016 12:20PM

Owryan wrote: »

2 instances don't make an argument. I could post hundreds of random photos of men holding their child's hand without being labeled a paedo which the op suggested was a regular occurrence.

Actually I ll be bringing my kids to the pool after, I ll prob see them naked, should I expect the gardai to swoop in and arrest me?

They were after one Google search, I don't agree with OP but there has been a move in some parts of society to demonise males and find the sick side of things like in my two links.

Colser · 29-10-2016 12:20PM

eviltwin wrote:

MGTOW are a different breed however. They have to make a big deal of it. Their reasons tend to be a blanket judgment that all women are bitches who are out to get you. They are smug and seem to think they have a better insight than men in relationships. They seem unable to accept that some men can be happy and fulfilled in a relationship.

And they are so vocal about it that I actually don't believe a word of it...he who protests too much etc.

Kal El · 29-10-2016 12:29PM

mzungu wrote: »

The short version: Lads annoyed at not being able to pick up women, so have decided to create a "philosophy" whereby they remove themselves from the dating sphere in order to reassert their masculinity.

The long in-depth version: Lads annoyed at not being able to pick up women, so have decided to create a "philosophy" whereby they remove themselves from the dating sphere in order to reassert their masculinity.

Ah has no one told them thats kinda stupid

Mr Arrior · 29-10-2016 12:31PM

eviltwin wrote:

MGTOW are a different breed however. They have to make a big deal of it. Their reasons tend to be a blanket judgment that all women are bitches who are out to get you. They are smug and seem to think they have a better insight than men in relationships. They seem unable to accept that some men can be happy and fulfilled in a relationship.

Blanket judgement right there if I ever saw one. Who says they are all like that. Do you know them all?

eviltwin · 29-10-2016 12:34PM

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Blanket judgement right there if I ever saw one. Who says they are all like that. Do you know them all?

Anyone who has to publicly announce that they are avoiding women like anyone cares and who subscribes to this red pill rubbish is a bit of an idiot. You'd do well to avoid that kind of nonsense.

silverharp · 29-10-2016 12:39PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Anyone who has to publicly announce that they are avoiding women like anyone cares and who subscribes to this red pill rubbish is a bit of an idiot. You'd do well to avoid that kind of nonsense.

from seeing some mgtow videos that isnt a universal position. all they basically say is that they wont marry a woman or have kids with one. if they have relationships with women they will be "pump and dump" (charming language I know) or have an end point before it gets too serious.

Thelomen Toblackai · 29-10-2016 12:42PM

Colser wrote: »

And they are so vocal about it that I actually don't believe a word of it...he who protests too much etc.

That's the problem though, you only hear the ones who go on about it. And those who are inclined to go on about it are the ones with the chips on their shoulders and want to get attention.

Meanwhile there's probably a lot of people who identify with the concept, live the way they do because it's just the life they fell into and are comfortable with.

But then people make blanket statements about something labeling everyone who's related to is as women haters or pathetic saddos who can't get laid.

There's plenty of vocal assholes with chips on their shoulder in every group\organisation\movement\advocates of a concept etc. Doesn't mean we should go labeling everyone or defining everything based on the comments of a few.

Colser · 29-10-2016 12:44PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote:

There's plenty of vocal assholes with chips on their shoulder in every group\organisation\movement\advocates of a concept etc. Doesn't mean we should go labeling everyone or defining everything based on the comments of a few.

True I suppose..I still think they'd take the ride if they got it though..just my opinion anyway.

Thelomen Toblackai · 29-10-2016 12:49PM

Colser wrote: »

True I suppose..I still think they'd take the ride if they got it though..just my opinion anyway.

Depends on the person I guess. It's hard to imagine that if they were at all sexual or intimate people and they experienced some intimacy after being on their own for so long that they wouldn't have to re-evaluate their lifestyle choice.

Mister Vain · 29-10-2016 01:01PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

That's the problem though, you only hear the ones who go on about it. And those who are inclined to go on about it are the ones with the chips on their shoulders and want to get attention.

Meanwhile there's probably a lot of people who identify with the concept, live the way they do because it's just the life they fell into and are comfortable with.

But then people make blanket statements about something labeling everyone who's related to is as women haters or pathetic saddos who can't get laid.

There's plenty of vocal assholes with chips on their shoulder in every group\organisation\movement\advocates of a concept etc. Doesn't mean we should go labeling everyone or defining everything based on the comments of a few.

Some very good points. You tend to only hear the worst of them. The people who are vocal about MGTOW aren't even that bad. Before MGTOW there was TFL - True Forced Loneliness, which had some absolute nutjobs. One of them went crazy and shot a load of women in a gym. From what I've seen, the people involved in MGTOW are actually fairly civil.

Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

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