Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

Colser

arayess wrote:

porn and hookers are a lifestyle choice for them in the sexual/relationship sphere. but otherwise they

So instead of setting down with a woman they choose to pay them or view them...they're still relying on women.

cantdecide

I haven't dropped out of society. Far from it. However, love, romance and the pursuit thereof gives me a shiver. I think I somewhat bow out, frankly. I'd love to meet someone but I'm sick of the struggle of expectations.

The reason is that I'm too hard a sell on looks and personality traits. Physically, I'm somewhere between not disarming and downright imposing. I can be quiet and struggle with smalltalk. Depending on mood, I struggle to charm a lot of the time and I suffer the ultimate killer as a guy- a deficit of *'confidence'.

In order to 'sell' myself, I have to impose. Approaching women in bars and online is soul destroying to me. Rejection itself I can take; what I can't take is the 'get lost- you're not welcome here- you're a creep' atmosphere when you're unwelcome. I can and have developed brilliant relationships and friendships but by gum, do I struggle to win some people over.





*that elusive trait that requires you to be outgoing, gregarious, charming, balanced, forthright and a million other traits in one. The trait that makes her a thousand promises. The trait that determines your worth as a man.I believe I have true confidence- I have done things in my life that have astounded even me but I can't deny the other, superficial confidence/ charm I lack.

Mr Arrior

I don't think men are or shud opt out of society but **** me its not easy for us especially the shyer type like myself. The mental health issue is a massive one, as a lad, ur male friends are uncomfortable and don't know how to deal with it and I find my female friends just don't really get as close to me as they wud their female ones. Where do you go to get ur mind off things. Most of us want the love a woman but we just struggle in those situations, all the while ya see plastered over facebook, some of the loud mouth lads surrounded by beautiful women. Ya see a pic of a beautiful woman somewhere and ya think to yourself, what I would give to even go for a walk with her and hold her hand. Now this could just be me and I look like complete eejit ha

mzungu

BrianD3 wrote: »

Men and the issues that affect thousands of men are generally ignored. I look forward to reading an article along the lines of the following:

-young man of 18 comes from a family that is not well off and can't afford to "have him on the payroll" after this age and his parents hope that he can move out
-he doesn't want to live at home anyway as he'll get people (women) mocking him as a loser who lives with his mammy
-whether he decides to go to third level education or not he must get a job either part time or full time
-he struggles badly to get a job
-rent prices are absurd
-he could move to somewhere with cheaper rents (eg Longford, Leitrim) but there are even fewer jobs there and public transport is crap so he'll need a car. Car insurance prices are absurd, even getting driving lessons is a major financial strain.

I have seen a number of articles over the years that have dealt with most of the above, this goes for both men and women. So, issues concerning both are represented. The problem is that it doesn't sell papers so these stories will never be a major feature.

mzungu

Mr Arrior wrote: »

I don't think men are or shud opt out of society but **** me its not easy for us especially the shyer type like myself. The mental health issue is a massive one, as a lad, ur male friends are uncomfortable and don't know how to deal with it and I find my female friends just don't really get as close to me as they wud their female ones. Where do you go to get ur mind off things. Most of us want the love a woman but we just struggle in those situations, all the while ya see plastered over facebook, some of the loud mouth lads surrounded by beautiful women. Ya see a pic of a beautiful woman somewhere and ya think to yourself, what I would give to even go for a walk with her and hold her hand. Now this could just be me and I look like complete eejit ha

Do you really want to be like those lads on Facebook? Comparing your life to what is on your social media feed is a hiding to nothing.

Mr Arrior

mzungu wrote:

Do you really want to be like those lads on Facebook? Comparing your life to what is on your social media feed is a hiding to nothing.

That's true but it wud be nice to have that amount of female attention once in a while.

intheclouds

BrianD3 wrote: »

No, they're not. As a result of hypergamy, lack of income/resources/status affects men much more than it affects women.

Also, as the OP says, if there is a gender quota (either official or unofficial) in place in a workplace it is invariably going to favour women, not men.

Doesn't particularly affect me - I'm nearly 40 and have plenty of money and a house with no mortgage. I'm stuck in something of a rut in my career but still have a secure job with an above average salary. Physically I'm in great shape. I have no plans to enter a long term relationship or get married. I regularly get young girls in their early-mid 20s flirting with me.

Whenever I read articles relating to employment and careers in the print media the topic is usually one of the following
-celebrating the fact that a woman has become a CEO or started her own successful company
-complaining about there not being enough female CEOs

Men and the issues that affect thousands of men are generally ignored. I look forward to reading an article along the lines of the following:

-young man of 18 comes from a family that is not well off and can't afford to "have him on the payroll" after this age and his parents hope that he can move out
-he doesn't want to live at home anyway as he'll get people (women) mocking him as a loser who lives with his mammy
-whether he decides to go to third level education or not he must get a job either part time or full time
-he struggles badly to get a job
-rent prices are absurd
-he could move to somewhere with cheaper rents (eg Longford, Leitrim) but there are even fewer jobs there and public transport is crap so he'll need a car. Car insurance prices are absurd, even getting driving lessons is a major financial strain.
-girls his age are paying attention to older men with jobs and money and ignoring him as he's a "loser" who doesn't have a car and the latest iPhone.

Scenarios such as above added to the availability of MGTOW and red pill websites may contribute to men dropping out of society.

And obviously I haven't even mentioned other stuff like "rape culture", manning up, teaching men not to rape, consent classes in university etc.

Just for fun I went to thejournal.ie and did a search on the term "CEO".

Several articles about male CEOs popped up, nothing about any female CEOs. At all. Not one.

In fact, unless you can produce some evidence for your claims above I'm going to have to dismiss them as nonsense.

Mr Arrior

intheclouds wrote:

Just for fun I went to thejournal.ie and did a search on the term "CEO".

intheclouds wrote:

Several articles about male CEOs popped up, nothing about any female CEOs. At all. Not one.

intheclouds wrote:

In fact, unless you can produce some evidence for your claims above I'm going to have to dismiss them as nonsense.

Of course some men are better off than women but this is aimed at the countless guys that arent and the fact that they are ignored.

LLMMLL

Someone mentioned rape culture and consent classes in university earlier. There are no consent classes in irish universities. If men are dropping out of society because of imaginary classes then they've a lot of issues.

Most people I know haven't even heard of rape culture. The issue here is people searching for articles on rape culture so they can get angry about it. Just be like everyone else and ignore it.

intheclouds

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Of course some men are better off than women but this is aimed at the countless guys that arent and the fact that they are ignored.

That's fine, but you can't make false claims to back an argument or else you've got no argument.

Where are all these articles about female CEOs? If they're so prevalent, posting links should be no problem.

eviltwin

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Of course some men are better off than women but this is aimed at the countless guys that arent and the fact that they are ignored.

It's not the fault of women you don't have enough confidence in yourself. It's not the fault of men if a woman can't pull for the same reason. None of us are perfect and yet we still manage to find partners. Maybe you need to spend more time building up your self esteem and social skills and stay off Facebook and the like.

Mr Arrior

eviltwin wrote: »

It's not the fault of women you don't have enough confidence in yourself. It's not the fault of men if a woman can't pull for the same reason. None of us are perfect and yet we still manage to find partners. Maybe you need to spend more time building up your self esteem and social skills and stay off Facebook and the like.

Didn't take long for the personal attacks to come in. Case and point.

eviltwin

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Didn't take long for the personal attacks to come in. Case and point.

No personal attack there at all. You said yourself you are shy around women. You won't change that by looking at Facebook and making yourself feel worse.

Mr Arrior

eviltwin wrote: »

No personal attack there at all. You said yourself you are shy around women. You won't change that by looking at Facebook and making yourself feel worse.

If not personal, it seems to have become all too normal to kick a man when he's down.

mzungu

maregal wrote: »

I'd like this thread to discuss the reasons why men are dropping out of society and foregoing women rather than discuss whether it's a good or bad thing. Last time a poster espoused the merits of the MGTOW movement the angry feminists brigaded the forum and forced the thread closure. It's amusing how offended they get as a group when one single man declares he's not interested in them.

I am not 100% on what "dropping out of society" entails? The MGTOW philosophy seems to be to blame all women, everywhere, for all the problems that men face. This just is not the case, in fact it's the ultimate cop out. The truth is, contrary to what MGTOW or their opposite numbers in the fourth wave brigade would have their followers believe, neither is responsible as a collective for their ills. It is play school style simplicity to suggest that this is the case.

Marriage is seen as a temporary arrangement these days rather than permanent. Men always lose out in the divorce. Look what the alimony payments did to Robin Williams.

I won't pretend like I know the ins and outs of Robin Williams divorce...because, for starters, I never knew he got divorced. Taking Hollywood out of the equation, what are alimony payments like for the ordinary Joe on the ground?

Pornography making men docile?

No idea. Some research would suggest not. Link: http://dro.dur.ac.uk/17175/1/17175.pdf

" pornography had educational benefits for these young men, related to
their sexual desires, emerging sexual identities and for developing new sexual techniques." (McCormack, M. and Wignall, L. (2016)

I suppose like the old saying goes, everything in moderation! But in general I have no idea whether it is good or bad, some studies say yes, others no. I simply picked that one as it was the most up to date I could find.

Men being demonized. Grown man holding hands with his child in the public park = pedophile.

The people who state the above are part of a vocal minority, and are NOT a representation of the average Jane Soap.

Tiddlypeeps

maregal wrote: »

From the CSO. Unemployment rate for males is almost always higher among all age groups. The younger the male, the more likely he is to be unemployed, signalling a worsening trend.

If only there was some event between those two dates that could explain the changing trend... It couldn't possibly be the collapse of the construction industry, which was extremely male dominated. We will be feeling the repercussions of that for a while yet. I was in secondary school during the tiger and the amount of lads I know that dropped out to go be builders was madness, they have almost zero employment prospects these days with not even the leaving cert behind them.

But obviously that's a silly theory, you must be right and the only conclusion is that society hates men!

mzungu

Mr Arrior wrote: »

If not personal, it seems to have become all too normal to kick a man when he's down.

Nobody is doing that. The fact is, if you wish to attract a partner, then you will need to start doing things differently. If you do have a bad case of shyness, it might be something to work on with a counselor.

Mr Arrior

mzungu wrote: »

Nobody is doing that. The fact is, if you wish to attract a partner, then you will need to start doing things differently. If you do have a bad case of shyness, it might be something to work on with a counselor.

Thats true. I have no problem with that cos you said it in a helpful manner.

BrianD3

intheclouds wrote: »

Just for fun I went to thejournal.ie and did a search on the term "CEO".

Several articles about male CEOs popped up, nothing about any female CEOs. At all. Not one.

Funny that - when I search thejournal.ie for Female AND CEO I get 21000 hits. Whereas if I search for just CEO (a much less restrictive search) I get 32000 hits. I suspect that you have willfully misunderstood my point or simply don't understand what sort of result you will get if you search for the term CEO on a media website. There are more male CEOs than women CEOs. If you just search for CEO you'll get articles that mention CEOs in passing. Many of these CEOs will be men. Many will be women.

This doesn't alter that fact that there are thousands of hits on the topic of employment/careers from various media organizations bemoaning that there aren't enough female CEOS or else glorifying those women that make CEO. Which was my point. Which is why you are the one talking nonsense.

Lukeskyrunner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewt8nKzdFck

maregal

LLMMLL wrote: »

Someone mentioned rape culture and consent classes in university earlier. There are no consent classes in irish universities.

This is not true. UCD plans mandatory consent classes. Men are guilty until proven innocent.

eviltwin

maregal wrote: »

This is not true. UCD plans mandatory consent classes. Men are guilty until proven innocent.

According to that it's for all students not just the males. Plenty of young women could do with an education on what's appropriate when interacting with other people.

Jan_de_Bakker

I agree with most of the post, but come on , I can hold my 4 year old sons hand no problem anywhere and no one bats an eyelid ..

maregal

Mr Arrior wrote: »

That's true but it wud be nice to have that amount of female attention once in a while.

Sorry that you feel that way mate but you're letting females control your emotions. Forget about them altogether and focus on self-improvement. Go to the gym and eat right to get into the best physical shape of your life. Work hard at your job, stash your cash and get that promotion. Read philosophy to understand the world and find inner peace. I suggest starting with the works of Stefan Molyneux for a dose of the red pill. I guarantee you'll feel happier and you'll learn to laugh at the betas bending over backwards to please an ungrateful female.

maregal

eviltwin wrote: »

According to that it's for all students not just the males. Plenty of young women could do with an education on what's appropriate when interacting with other people.

My point stands. The other poster claimed consent courses aren't mandatory in Irish universities. I've corrected him. This cancer must be stopped.

Jan_de_Bakker

maregal wrote: »

This is not true. UCD plans mandatory consent classes. Men are guilty until proven innocent.

Where I think it's nonsense, I mean should everyone have to take classes on not to steal ?

at least in this case it's ALL students that need to take the class.

Still it is a load of bollix, and probably some man hating frustrated spinster will be
"teaching" the class....

LLMMLL

maregal wrote: »

This is not true. UCD plans mandatory consent classes. Men are guilty until proven innocent.

That article says that the SU has called for it. It does not say that UCD are introducing it.

As for "guilty until proven innocent" what do consent classes have to do with potential rape trials and whether the defendant will get a fair trial??? You're drawing some really odd conclusions.

ardinn

If there is a shortage of men having sex in Japan I'll head over right away - I'd say I'd sort the problem out fairly quick to be honest! Are the women not the same tho - stuffing themselves with auto peni??

Anyway - I have 0 interest in marriage or kids - I wasnt in a relationship for 7 years due to women being too annoying in general, too easy on first meets (which warded off cravings for another week) and porn I suppose. I'm now seeing someone but finding it incredibly difficult to .... to put up with her sh1t tbh! Women are hard to deal with, not a chance I'll ever marry i'd bet, no kids either im sure. Someone could always change my mind though Never know whats around the corner.

But im still certainly available to up the baby rate in Japan. Really. I'll go as soon as you tell me!!

Jan_de_Bakker

LLMMLL wrote: »

That article says that the SU has called for it. It does not say that UCD are introducing it.

As for "guilty until proven innocent" what do consent classes have to do with potential rape trials and whether the defendant will get a fair trial??? You're drawing some really odd conclusions.

I think he means that they are assuming men will be a danger to women unless they take this class to teach them not to rape basically.

I would worry what would happen to students that would refuse to take it - especially students doing serious courses (STEM) ... not all students go to college to toss of and do arts for 3 years...

nomdeboardie

Mr Arrior wrote: »

I don't think men are or shud opt out of society but **** me its not easy for us especially the shyer type like myself. The mental health issue is a massive one, as a lad, ur male friends are uncomfortable and don't know how to deal with it and I find my female friends just don't really get as close to me as they wud their female ones. Where do you go to get ur mind off things. Most of us want the love a woman but we just struggle in those situations, all the while ya see plastered over facebook, some of the loud mouth lads surrounded by beautiful women. Ya see a pic of a beautiful woman somewhere and ya think to yourself, what I would give to even go for a walk with her and hold her hand. Now this could just be me and I look like complete eejit ha

2 things spring to mind
-- Eliot Rodger's 'manifesto'
-- Maybe not-so-beautiful women don't have it so easy either