Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

Miniegg

OP, what would be your ideal vision of society be, and where would women fit into it?

We have lived in male dominated societies for thousands of years - and although there have been unbelievable highs in so many areas, it is very hard to look beyond the fact that these societies culminated in two world wars which lead to the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. The pictures of bodies piled up on ww1 battlefields etc., and the waste of life, I sometimes find overwhelming.

If society is now being 'engineered' in another direction now, why not give it a go? You may not find it good for you personally, but that doesnt mean it isnt good for mankind. We got to a point where we as a species had to look inside ourselves and change the path we were on. This change is a more inclusive society.

This is broader than a man v woman debate, but if you find society changing, why not embrace it?

super_furry

This whole concept all seems so American-centric and based in the notion of white American men, that I'm struggling to see how Irish lads can buy into the concept at all. All this talk from Irish lads about "white straight men" being victimised - there's barely any other kind of men in Ireland and we're not victims.

silverharp

super_furry wrote: »

This whole concept all seems so American-centric and based in the notion of white American men, that I'm struggling to see how Irish lads can buy into the concept at all. All this talk from Irish lads about "white straight men" being victimised - there's barely any other kind of men in Ireland and we're not victims.

its a bit like having a BLM march in Dublin, because erm all the black people shot by gardai . no harm observing cultural trends abroad they will arrvie here eventually if in a diluted version

Richard Hillman

Speaking for a long term viewpoint, I think we are just returning back to our primal roots now that Christianity is a non player in society anymore for white males. The notion of coupling up for mammals is folly. Only Penguins need to form a couple to function. And a select few other animals.

Mammals work in an aspect of one alpha male gets many females. With the other males living a solitary life.

Women are going to have to get used to sharing their man because the pool of men interested in playing the game is plummeting.

silverharp

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Speaking for a long term viewpoint, I think we are just returning back to our primal roots now that Christianity is a non player in society anymore for white males. The notion of coupling up for mammals is folly. Only Penguins need to form a couple to function. And a select few other animals.

Mammals work in an aspect of one alpha male gets many females. With the other males living a solitary life.

Women are going to have to get used to sharing their man because the pool of men interested in playing the game is plummeting.

I dont think there will be any "sharing" although Tinder culture is about as mammalian as it comes in terms of your "alpha" model. the result will be more single men and more single women.

Mr Arrior

Richard Hillman wrote:

Women are going to have to get used to sharing their man because the pool of men interested in playing the game is plummeting.

The game as in married and kids? Cos if it is plummeting then that's great news for the guys that want those things.

Wanderer78

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Not saying this is the case with yourself but I most often here this argument from those who don't have a third level education or those who graduated by doing the bare minimum.

They seem to think the education system is supposed to configure them to walk into the world with their opinion worth something even though they don't even take learning or developing their own opinion seriously. They end up with a degree in something they couldn't give two ****s about having dragged themselves through exams by learning enough facts to answer the questions and then turn around and blame the education system for not spitting them out as a finished product ready to change the world.

From what I see the education system is supposed to educate. Give you knowledge, teach you how to find knowledge and teach you how to apply that knowledge in different ways. Sure it could and should be better in almost all aspects but it's not the reason most people are "worker drones".

The mindset and intelligence you use to apply what you learn doesn't solely come from school. If the vast majority of people don't care about education or the area they are studying and want to do other things at the expense of developing a good foundation for applying themselves and becoming an expert in their field then all they will be suited for is drone work. They are natural drones happy to do the minimum, happy to have their weekend of fun as a reward for a weeks work and happy do it all again the following week. They themselves develop that habit and choose to live like that, it's not enforced by the education system.

So those who end up doing the grunt work\drone work are those who never took learning seriously and expect everything to be handed to them. Those who don't end up in those positions are those who got from the education system the foundation upon which to build on with their own interest in learning, passion for a particular area and progressing and growing as human beings.

id disagree with you regarding a lot of things in this post but to some things, you do have a valid point.

theres a possibility that those you have encountered with these views may not have third level qualifications as they maybe struggling with complex problems such as mental health issues, learning disabilities such as dyslexia, various forms of autism such as aspergers etc, other complex behavioural problems such as adhd etc. our educational system has dealt with these issues very badly in the past but is thankfully starting to deal with them but progress is very slow. i have personal experience in this as i am dyslexic and suffer with mental health issues. im probably also autistic, may even have aspergers. i have spent almost 30 years of my life studying in our educational system, a large portion of it obviously in third level. i do know some of these people you speak of, and i do believe many of them are suffering with the issues outlined above. i have discussed this with educational professionals including special needs assistants, educational psychologists and even psychologists, all more or less agreeing with me, even going further and explaining in great detail the issues they see within our educational system.

i find your opinion on people's opinions a little odd, all human opinions are valid and important for a more inclusive society. theres a possibility that people dont take their own education serious as they could very well be bored. our educational system is not very engaging, particularly for those that suffer with the complex issues discussed above, but id say a lot of students are bored even without these issues. its really a rinse repeat system, a special needs tutor even agreed with me on that one. the transition between our second level to third level is particularly bad. many students have very little knowledge of the degrees they have signed up for prior to, again, confirmed by experienced special needs tutors. this is a system failure. many of these students drop out shortly after starting their courses due to the fact. many of these young third level students also lack essential life skills, such as cooking and generally maintaining their well being, all signs of a failing system, particularly at the early stages of our system, i.e. particularly secondary level. we need to ditch some of the academia in our system and replace it with essential life skills as mentioned.

i personally believe our educational system is largely based on a fundamentally flawed economic theory called neoclassical theory, hence my use of the term, 'worker drones'. upon researching this theory, i can see evidence of it almost everywhere in our society. i suspect it was created and developed by sociopaths possibly even psychopaths such is the black and white nature of it.

as said previously, our educational system deals very badly with those that have no real interest in academia, society requires a mix of skills and people. our educational system priorities academia, what if you have no interest in this or are not designed for that world? some fall into this category, and fail very badly in our system. they fall through the net so to speak. again, this would more than likely be supported by the professionals i mentioned earlier.

humans are very complicated, unfortunately our educational system has fundamental flaws, sometimes very serious ones, but im glad we have it. it has major benefits to our society as a whole but is sadly causing serious problems for some as explained. i have been labeled 'lazy' throughout my educational and working career, this is further from the truth. please do not label some with this, as the truth is probably more complex than you think. i know you didnt use the word 'lazy', but it was implied within your response. thank you

Richard Hillman

Mr Arrior wrote: »

The game as in married and kids? Cos if it is plummeting then that's great news for the guys that want those things.

The game of courtsmanship

Mr Arrior

Richard Hillman wrote:

The game of courtsmanship

Ah OK, but again wud the guys doing that possibly get a better reaction from women as its more of a rarity. Either that or they'll be seen as odd.

Richard Hillman

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Ah OK, but again wud the guys doing that possibly get a better reaction from women as its more of a rarity. Either that or they'll be seen as odd.

Yes. They will be great times to be an alpha or willing male. Nature will correct the hierarchy of life. The bad times will be back for the ladies.

Miniegg

Richard hillman - Human kind is in an infinitely higher evolutionary plane to other mammals on the planet (although the actions of some people may make you question that : P).

What other mammals have a developed reason and self awareness?

There are lots of benefits to monogamy, which is why humankind has veered toward it. On an individual level it may be difficult to remain monogomous, but on a societal level there is very little evidence that it does anything but good for mankind. First and foremost, it is for the good of human children.

It is a distinctly human trait, as are lots of other things that humans do, including fathers being invlolved in the upbringing of their offspring. What other mammals do, though interesting, is not very relevant.

Blacktie.

Some people are really out of touch. This thread is entertaining anyway.

Carlos Orange

super_furry wrote: »

All this talk from Irish lads about "white straight men" being victimised - there's barely any other kind of men in Ireland and we're not victims.

There are quite a lot people who aren't straight or men in Ireland.

mzungu

silverharp wrote: »

so a good strategy for them if the odds arent in their favor?

TBH they (MGTOW) do not do themselves any favours. Seeing as though quite a few seem to have deep seated issues with women in general, is it really any wonder that they were not given the time of day? Take a glance at any of their forums and you will see a recurring pattern where they talk about women (or "females" as they tend to say a lot) usually in ways like (a)they are from a distant planet and (b)responsible for all their problems . So, if that is the kind of attitude they have offline, then I am not shocked that they had little success.

looking on it does seem like economics and the modern dating and the Tiderisation of dating is creating a "drought" for some young men particularly in large US cities. the common way its put is that 80% of women are chasing 20% of men. Under such a regime opting out isnt insane.

Opting out is one thing, but trying to make out that all the blame can be apportioned to half the worlds population is something else entirely.

py2006

MGTOW seems a bit extreme alright.

I've made a conscious choice to avoid marriage and long term relationships. It just isn't for me. I find them claustrophobic and I do like spending time on my own. That doesn't mean I hate women, in fact I get along quite well and enjoy the craic with them.

However, being single as a man in mid 30s you do get a lot of strange looks and direct questions like, "Why aren't you married?", or "Why are you single?". Really odd questions to ask people in a social environment. I usually respond with, "I can't afford a woman or marriage". Gets a laugh...sometimes!

It amuses me how much of a turn off for some women a single mid thirties guy with no house or permanent job can be for them. I've a couple male friends in their 30s/40s with wives, mortgages who attract a lot more attention than I do. haha Life isn't fair!

Doesn't help that I am neither the sharpest tool in the box nor anything that resembles physically attractive.

Just depressing myself now.....off to the pub!

Mister Vain

py2006 wrote: »

MGTOW seems a bit extreme alright.

I've made a conscious choice to avoid marriage and long term relationships. It just isn't for me. I find them claustrophobic and I do like spending time on my own. That doesn't mean I hate women, in fact I get along quite well and enjoy the craic with them.

However, being single as a man in mid 30s you do get a lot of strange looks and direct questions like, "Why aren't you married?", or "Why are you single?". Really odd questions to ask people in a social environment. I usually respond with, "I can't afford a woman or marriage". Gets a laugh...sometimes!

It amuses me how much of a turn off for some women a single mid thirties guy with no house or permanent job can be for them. I've a couple male friends in their 30s/40s with wives, mortgages who attract a lot more attention than I do. haha Life isn't fair!

Doesn't help that I am neither the sharpest tool in the box nor anything that resembles physically attractive.

Just depressing myself now.....off to the pub!

I get asked those questions a lot too. Some people are genuinely perplexed while others are kind of like, "You're dead right." I know what you mean about relationships feeling claustrophobic. I honestly don't think I'm cut out for a long term one. I'd consider myself decent enough looking and I keep fit and look after myself, but I'm a bit of an oddball in that I don't exactly adhere to societal norms.

professore

intheclouds wrote: »

Just for fun I went to thejournal.ie and did a search on the term "CEO".

Several articles about male CEOs popped up, nothing about any female CEOs. At all. Not one.

In fact, unless you can produce some evidence for your claims above I'm going to have to dismiss them as nonsense.

That's about 0.00001% of the population. Do a search for models and you will get the same result, only in reverse. The unemployment stats are far more relevant to everyday life. The OP does seem bitter against women, but I think he made some valid points. If you're that guy with his life together and have reasonable success with women, you get a very different view of the world than some young guy with no confidence and struggling to find a job. Very little resources or positive help for the latter. Plenty for girls of the same age.

Arevaci

The MGTOW movement is based primarily on two factors: 1} Increasing expectations among men regarding sexual activity; 2) An increasing proportion of men not getting any sex. The media has fuelled the former and increasing female choice has resulted in the latter.

For example, all we hear in the media is about the increasingly sexuality of younger generations, sexual liberation, tinder/hook-up culture, when in reality the current generation is only slightly more promiscuous than previous generations and the overall level of sexual activity is declining due to the increasing number of single people. Everyone was very surprised with a recent study in the US which showed reduced sexual activity amongst current the generation relative to older generations. But it makes complete sense if you think about the fact that women have lower sex drives and aren’t as forced into sexual activity for financial purposes these days.

The problem for men is that today the average female is economically independent and is not particularly physically attracted to the average guy. Decades ago when less women worked this average guy would have been more attractive for financial purposes.

As women have lower sex drives they’re more than happy to wait around for the right guy to either have sex with or start a relationship with, whereas the average guy is overflowing with sex drive and wants it now. When this sex drive is not met, it results in anger and the most obvious direction to channel this anger is towards those perceived as depriving them of the sexual needs (i.e., women)

TLDR: MGTOW is the product of an increasing number of guys not having regular sex with increasing expectancies that they should be.

Mister Vain

Arevaci wrote: »

The MGTOW movement is based primarily on two factors: 1} Increasing expectations among men regarding sexual activity; 2) An increasing proportion of men not getting any sex. The media has fuelled the former and increasing female choice has resulted in the latter.

For example, all we hear in the media is about the increasingly sexuality of younger generations, sexual liberation, tinder/hook-up culture, when in reality the current generation is only slightly more promiscuous than previous generations and the overall level of sexual activity is declining due to the increasing number of single people. Everyone was very surprised with a recent study in the US which showed reduced sexual activity amongst current the generation relative to older generations. But it makes complete sense if you think about the fact that women have lower sex drives and aren’t as forced into sexual activity for financial purposes these days.

The problem for men is that today the average female is economically independent and is not particularly physically attracted to the average guy. Decades ago when less women worked this average guy would have been more attractive for financial purposes.

As women have lower sex drives they’re more than happy to wait around for the right guy to either have sex with or start a relationship with, whereas the average guy is overflowing with sex drive and wants it now. When this sex drive is not met, it results in anger and the most obvious direction to channel this anger is towards those perceived as depriving them of the sexual needs (i.e., women)

TLDR: MGTOW is the product of an increasing number of guys not having regular sex with increasing expectancies that they should be.

It also results in men using escorts to fulfill their sexual needs. The escort business is booming in Ireland at he moment.

RDM_83 again

One thing that is notable is the lack of men's support for other men and perhaps a willingness to throw those lacking in social skills under the bus to an extent in a way that doesn't seem to occur among women. This isn't to say female-female interactions can't also be incredibly toxic but women tend to knit themselves better support networks outside of specific activities such as sports.
The previous thread I think the OP is referring to is a decent example of this, a woman espousing "political lesbianism" in the LL might get told to try a different approach but male posters attacking the op wouldnt be tolerated and I think the a lot more support to their issues would be evident (to the issues they face as it were not to their response to said issues).

I disagree with the MGTOW idea but it often seems that men's spaces are considered harmful unless "preapproved" as being non toxic.

Carlos Orange

RDM_83 again wrote: »

The previous thread I think the OP is referring to is a decent example of this, a woman espousing "political lesbianism" in the LL might get told to try a different approach but male posters attacking the op wouldnt be tolerated and I think the a lot more support to their issues would be evident (to the issues they face as it were not to their response to said issues).

I have never looked in depth but at a very surface level it doesn't seem any different to my mum telling me she didn't used to think she needed a man to be happy (until she met my dad). Somehow men saying they don't need a relationship with a women to enjoy life is radical.

maregal

Prepare for the ultimate red pill on human sexual dynamics: the top 20% of guys get 80% of the women. For centuries, humanity practiced polgamy. The alpha male kept a harem of available women to mate with while the betas either got to have the ugly leftovers or died as virgins thereby not passing on their genes.

This is apparent in the modern dating game where a select few good looking men ("Chads") are getting laid every weekend while the rest of the male rejects (betas) fap to internet porn. As women reach age 30+ they have passed their peak Sexual Market Value (SMV) and realize that they can no longer attract Chad as he has moved onto younger models. The women are then willing to settle with a beta, provided he has a good income, a flashy car and spacious house. She will begrudgingly partake in sex with the beta for the first year or two of marriage until the children have arrived. She will then divorce the beta, taking the house while collecting monthly child support payments in the process. She no longer needs the beta as she has a steady income. This is a tough pill to swallow but we've seen the same story play out countless times before.

PucaMama

maregal wrote: »

Prepare for the ultimate red pill on human sexual dynamics: the top 20% of guys get 80% of the women. For centuries, humanity practiced polgamy. The alpha male kept a harem of available women to mate with while the betas either got to have the ugly leftovers or died as virgins thereby not passing on their genes.

This is apparent in the modern dating game where a select few good looking men ("Chads") are getting laid every weekend while the rest of the male rejects (betas) fap to internet porn. As women reach age 30+ they have passed their peak Sexual Market Value (SMV) and realize that they can no longer attract Chad as he has moved onto younger models. The women are then willing to settle with a beta, provided he has a good income, a flashy car and spacious house. She will begrudgingly partake in sex with the beta for the first year or two of marriage until the children have arrived. She will then divorce the beta, taking the house while collecting monthly child support payments in the process. She no longer needs the beta as she has a steady income. This is a tough pill to swallow but we've seen the same story play out countless times before.

This is insane. Women are not behaving like this. Any married women I know are very happily married and plan on staying that way. You seem delusional.

Men who think like this seem to place very little value on marriage. And very little value on doing things that are for the benefit of society e.g having and raising good children to become good adults.

maregal

PucaMama wrote: »

This is insane. Women are not behaving like this. Any married women I know are very happily married and plan on staying that way. You seem delusional.

Men who think like this seem to place very little value on marriage. And very little value on doing things that are for the benefit of society e.g having and raising good children to become good adults.

As soon as men try to form a support group to voice their concerns and worries in the Gentlemen's Club women barge in calling us "insane and delusional". What a nice person you are. Can men not have one corner of the internet to ourselves to talk openly?

Women initiate divorce 69% of the time btw. Source. That's over two thirds. A staggering figure. How many broken men have they left in their wake for the sake of a quick pay cheque? You can't deny the facts.

eeguy

maregal wrote: »

She will begrudgingly partake in sex with the beta for the first year or two of marriage until the children have arrived. She will then divorce the beta, taking the house while collecting monthly child support payments in the process. She no longer needs the beta as she has a steady income. This is a tough pill to swallow but we've seen the same story play out countless times before.

I have never seen nor heard of anyone doing that in real life.

Fair enough, good looking lads get the most women and the best looking women, nothing new there. It's been like that forever.
But you're talking of a conspiracy by evil, men and sex hating women to bleed men dry.

You realise that women and men aren't that much different?

I've plenty of male friends who b*tch and moan they can't get a date, but they're usually focussed on the best looking girls out there and dismissing every other girl who doesn't fit the "ideal".

silverharp

mzungu wrote: »

TBH they (MGTOW) do not do themselves any favours. Seeing as though quite a few seem to have deep seated issues with women in general, is it really any wonder that they were not given the time of day? Take a glance at any of their forums and you will see a recurring pattern where they talk about women (or "females" as they tend to say a lot) usually in ways like (a)they are from a distant planet and (b)responsible for all their problems . So, if that is the kind of attitude they have offline, then I am not shocked that they had little success.

Opting out is one thing, but trying to make out that all the blame can be apportioned to half the worlds population is something else entirely.

its not about blaming "half the population" but the same thing is happening in Japan so I'd say its more an economic problem. As I see it lower status males are not required, employers only want to give them minimum wage jobs and everything else follows on from that. they might as well "opt out" and make the best of a low cost low wage lifestyle.

mzungu

maregal wrote: »

As soon as men try to form a support group to voice their concerns and worries in the Gentlemen's Club women barge in calling us "insane and delusional".

Nope. The ideas were called "insane"....primarily because they are total BS.

Can men not have one corner of the internet to ourselves to talk openly?

Part of talking openly is having ideas that can be debated and are open to critique. Anything else is just an echo chamber.

dark crystal

maregal wrote: »

As soon as men try to form a support group to voice their concerns and worries in the Gentlemen's Club women barge in calling us "insane and delusional". What a nice person you are. Can men not have one corner of the internet to ourselves to talk openly?

Women initiate divorce 69% of the time btw. Source. That's over two thirds. A staggering figure. How many broken men have they left in their wake for the sake of a quick pay cheque? You can't deny the facts.

Are you blaming women for the break-up of all these marriages (in Ireland, we still have the lowest divorce rate in the EU)?

That is to say, is divorce always the fault of women?

PucaMama

maregal wrote: »

As soon as men try to form a support group to voice their concerns and worries in the Gentlemen's Club women barge in calling us "insane and delusional". What a nice person you are. Can men not have one corner of the internet to ourselves to talk openly?

Women initiate divorce 69% of the time btw. Source. That's over two thirds. A staggering figure. How many broken men have they left in their wake for the sake of a quick pay cheque? You can't deny the facts.

That is an American study. Doesn't apply here. Like studies on African males may not apply to European men.

This thread is not a support group it's a discussion so yes I can give my opinion. MGTOW in my opinion is full of paranoia and negative stereotypes about women. It's damaging to society and also encourages men to shirk responsibility. I have read up before on it and read this stupid article suggesting men should get as many women pregnant as possible and leave it to "betas" to raise the children. These ideas although uncommon are extremely dangerous and are the type of "out there" thing that grabs certain men's attention.

eviltwin

Threads like this don't belong here. It's so totally removed from anything to do with the average Irish male and imo damage the forum and drag it down. Is their not some far flung corner of Boards for this kind of crap?