Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

maregal · 28-10-2016 06:24PM #1

I'd like this thread to discuss the reasons why men are dropping out of society and foregoing women rather than discuss whether it's a good or bad thing. Last time a poster espoused the merits of the MGTOW movement the angry feminists brigaded the forum and forced the thread closure. It's amusing how offended they get as a group when one single man declares he's not interested in them.

To keep the OP brief I'll list off some oft-suggested reasons and hopefully we can expand on them in the discussion.

Marriage is seen as a temporary arrangement these days rather than permanent. Men always lose out in the divorce. Look what the alimony payments did to Robin Williams.

A good job is hard to find. Everything is an internship, short contract or a dead end McJob. Employment quotas favour women and minorities.

Pornography making men docile?

Education system favours the female brain. Universities are packed with more females than males. SJW and politically correct dogma is shoved down your throat at these institutions.

Men being demonized. Grown man holding hands with his child in the public park = pedophile. Have consensual sex with a girl but she changes her mind the next day = rapist. Men are constantly fighting back their natural urge to rape and commit violence apparently.

I've a few more hypotheses but that should be enough to get the ball rolling.

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Goodshape · 28-10-2016 06:31PM

MGTOW?

Regardless, it's a vastly male dominated society. I'd challenge you to demonstrate otherwise.

Personally while I don't feel I'm "dropping out" by any means whatsoever, and I think some of your examples are extreme or cherry picked, I am happy to accommodate efforts to even things out.

maregal · 28-10-2016 06:39PM

Goodshape wrote: »

MGTOW?

Regardless, it's a vastly male dominated society. I'd challenge you to demonstrate otherwise.

Personally while I don't feel I'm "dropping out" by any means whatsoever, and I think some of your examples are extreme or cherry picked, I am happy to accommodate efforts to even things out.

MGTOW = Men Go Their Own Way. It's when men live their lives without centering them around women or "chasing tail". You'll find you're much more productive and happier this way, in my opinion.

Are you familiar with the term Hikikomori? Young Japanese men aren't having sex anymore (birth rates are extremely low) instead preferring to lock themselves in their room to play vidya and watch anime. In extreme cases, some men haven't left their room in years. What can drive a man to do such a thing, against their natural inclinations to find a mate, other than a society that hates them?

somefeen · 28-10-2016 06:47PM

No
We have our problems sure but we aren't dropping out of society.
Men are still well represented pretty much everywhere, even with any deliberate effort to diversify.

If you only look at extreme cases such as what you have highlighted then you might think so. The bigger picture is very different

eviltwin · 28-10-2016 06:49PM

maregal wrote: »

MGTOW = Men Go Their Own Way. It's when men live their lives without centering them around women or "chasing tail". You'll find you're much more productive and happier this way, in my opinion.

Are you familiar with the term Hikikomori? Young Japanese men aren't having sex anymore (birth rates are extremely low) instead preferring to lock themselves in their room to play vidya and watch anime. In extreme cases, some men haven't left their room in years. What can drive a man to do such a thing, against their natural inclinations to find a mate, other than a society that hates them?

Is this something you've done or are considering doing yourself OP?

orubiru · 28-10-2016 06:52PM

maregal wrote: »

I'd like this thread to discuss the reasons why men are dropping out of society and foregoing women rather than discuss whether it's a good or bad thing. Last time a poster espoused the merits of the MGTOW movement the angry feminists brigaded the forum and forced the thread closure. It's amusing how offended they get as a group when one single man declares he's not interested in them.

To keep the OP brief I'll list off some oft-suggested reasons and hopefully we can expand on them in the discussion.

Marriage is seen as a temporary arrangement these days rather than permanent. Men always lose out in the divorce. Look what the alimony payments did to Robin Williams.

A good job is hard to find. Everything is an internship, short contract or a dead end McJob. Employment quotas favour women and minorities.

Pornography making men docile?

Education system favours the female brain. Universities are packed with more females than males. SJW and politically correct dogma is shoved down your throat at these institutions.

Men being demonized. Grown man holding hands with his child in the public park = pedophile. Have consensual sex with a girl but she changes her mind the next day = rapist. Men are constantly fighting back their natural urge to rape and commit violence apparently.

I've a few more hypotheses but that should be enough to get the ball rolling.

A lot of the things you've listed really are the negative motivations of MGTOW though and I think this is what gets people riled up.

Like some of the things you've said about men being demonised don't really ring true in the real world. Sure there are certain people who certainly make an attempt at demonising men but your post kind of comes close to demonising women. I think MGTOW often demonises women.

I am sure that dropping out of society would be good for some people and I'm sure that or men who have a decent income of a decent amount of savings there has never been a better time to drop out.

For me most of the MGTOW movement seems to be characterised by bitterness towards women and a lot of MGTOWs I've seen online are actual misogynists.

There's seems to be a lot of "I am so sick of women and so sick of society favouring women and so scared I'll sleep with a lady and then be accused of rape so I am done".

There's not a lot of "Meh, I've had enough so i'm just going to play games and watch football until I die. See ya!"

It's less Men Going Their Own Way and more Men Who Rant About Hating Women. That's my view anyway.

Maybe that's a common criticism of MGTOW though?

maregal · 28-10-2016 06:55PM

@orubiru: why do you think men are dropping out of society?

Owryan · 28-10-2016 07:04PM

Really not sure what to make of the opening post. Robin Williams had depression before he got married. Women are just as much affected by the jobs situation.

I routinely hold my kids hands in the park and on the town without being labeled a paedo. I ve also worked with vulnerable children without being accused of same.

Society changes maybe that's the reason.

FloatingVoter · 28-10-2016 07:08PM

I love women...they don't love me. Except when it's on a professional basis. I am a permanent inmate of the Friendzone. This is due to my looking like the back end of the 77 and being shy. Nothing to do with d'interweb or the growing equality of the sexes.

Porn - well, it was always around and a **** is no substitute for a real cuddle or even a touch of a hand on a shoulder.

Marriage - do or don't. Plenty of people do it once and spend forty years with the sequel, no ring attached.

Employment - eh, yeah we used to get 100% of the good jobs. Now even Donald Trump can't get elected President and some corrupt twat is going to spend 4 years (no longer) in a mansion on Pennslyvania Avenue. Because she is a grown-up.

And yes, girls do spend more time at the books and less time in the pub therefore the increase in 1.1's on their end. Most lecturers don't want to admit undergrads exist less distinguish between genders at exam time.

As for the Japanese lads in the room. I try to walk down Dame Street most days avoiding idiots head down, focused on their mobiles. When the same idiots (either gender) get killed walking under a bus, I pity the driver. Evolution invented the mobile and Pokemon to rid us of these wastes.

super_furry · 28-10-2016 07:15PM

I don't believe that men are dropping out of society in any significant number. The issue here is that if you embed yourself in fringe internet culture when a handful of people with the same outlook congregate then you end up feeling that these MGTOW and Red Pill groups are somehow more significant than they actually are.

ancapailldorcha · 28-10-2016 07:20PM

somefeen wrote: »

No
We have our problems sure but we aren't dropping out of society.
Men are still well represented pretty much everywhere, even with any deliberate effort to diversify.

If you only look at extreme cases such as what you have highlighted then you might think so. The bigger picture is very different

I'd add that perhaps working class men aren't terribly well represented.

I think cost is as likely to be a factor as anything else. I just moved to London, I'm earning nearly double what I was on a few years ago and yet it would cost me 75% of my net income to rent a one-bedroom flat here. How on earth would I support a child in that scenario?

Ted111 · 28-10-2016 07:26PM

maregal that sounds a bit weak and self-pitying. I'm not trying
to be offensive. You or anyone else who thinks like that needs to develop
a stronger mind set.

maregal · 28-10-2016 07:31PM

From the CSO. Unemployment rate for males is almost always higher among all age groups. The younger the male, the more likely he is to be unemployed, signalling a worsening trend.

Accommodation adverts read "females only". Society hates straight white males.

Ted111 wrote: »

maregal that sounds a bit weak and self-pitying. I'm not trying
to be offensive. You or anyone else who thinks like that needs to develop
a stronger mind set.

"Man up and grow some balls". Great advice.

super_furry · 28-10-2016 07:33PM

maregal wrote: »

Take a leap like that at the Olympics and you'd win a gold medal.

Vital Transformation · 28-10-2016 07:45PM

maregal wrote: »

Are you familiar with the termHikikomori? Young Japanese men aren't having sex anymore (birth rates are extremely low) instead preferring to lock themselves in their room to play vidya and watch anime. In extreme cases, some men haven't left their room in years.

Is that not a separate phenomenon? Sounds like that is a massively isolated way to live. Whereas MGTOW is men who choose not to get involved with women.

scamalert · 28-10-2016 07:48PM

As another user said people are coming to senses,economic times are crap,your lucky to have job these days.
And while old thinking of get hooked up in 20s marriage and bunch of kids still going strong but ,many realize that its unfair to get kids or into relationship when barely managing on your own.

In reality who cares if one is happy alone then why not,some cant do it alone and need company,some want family no matter if they dont even have roof over their heads,some manage some create just bigger cluster mess and wish they never did.

orubiru · 28-10-2016 07:53PM

maregal wrote: »

@orubiru: why do you think men are dropping out of society?

Are they? What kind of numbers are we talking about here?

Based on your OP I'm gonna say that some men are dropping out of society because they incorrectly believe that society hates men.

Blacktie. · 28-10-2016 07:53PM

OP didn't you make this exact same thread a few months ago? Must we really have the same discussions again?

Iron pill or something before?

intheclouds · 28-10-2016 07:55PM

OP I really think you need to get professional help. You are absolutely obsessed with everyone hating you, and have constructed some weird iron pill fantasy to as a defensive move against that misconception and seem to have now convinced yourself that society hates all men.

Theres a lot of hate and bitterness, you really need to speak to someone qualified to deal with these kinds of issues.

FloatingVoter · 28-10-2016 07:55PM

Accommodtion ads also read "non-smoking" as a requirement. It's your gaffe, you choose. I can see why single females do not want strange men lurking outside the bathroom of a Monday morning. And yes, blokes will not object to strange women hopping into bed with them. Any modern straight men jumping on that last comment - have a beer and consult the other brain first.

Personally, if I were letting out a spare room it would be "willing to put up with single male chain smoker and any axe murdering is to be done elsewhere."

maregal · 28-10-2016 08:04PM

intheclouds wrote: »

OP I really think you need to get professional help. You are absolutely obsessed with everyone hating you, and have constructed some weird iron pill fantasy to as a defensive move against that misconception and seem to have now convinced yourself that society hates all men.

Theres a lot of hate and bitterness, you really need to speak to someone qualified to deal with these kinds of issues.

Smear your opponent as mentally ill and you can dismiss his arguments. Disgusting tactic.

The writing is on the wall. Male unemployment is up. Male suicide is up. Divorces are up. Males entering college is down. Anecdotally, the amount of guys in their mid 20s still living at home, single, and unemployed or working a dead end minimum wage job is staggering. Spend a few minutes reading the threads in this forum. It wasn't like this 20 years ago where a young educated man could get earn a decent wage straight out of college and buy a home to raise a family. I'm trying to ignite a discussion as to what has changed but it's being constantly derailed by smears aimed at myself.

eviltwin · 28-10-2016 08:06PM

maregal wrote: »

Smear your opponent as mentally ill and you can dismiss his arguments. Disgusting tactic.

The writing is on the wall. Male unemployment is up. Male suicide is up. Divorces are up. Males entering college is down. Anecdotally, the amount of guys in their mid 20s still living at home, single, and unemployed or working a dead end minimum wage job is staggering. Spend a few minutes reading the threads in this forum. It wasn't like this 20 years ago where a young educated man could get earn a decent wage straight out of college and buy a home to raise a family. I'm trying to ignite a discussion as to what has changed but it's being constantly derailed by smears aimed at myself.

Personal responsibility

Ted111 · 28-10-2016 08:07PM

Ted111 wrote: »

maregal that sounds a bit weak and self-pitying. I'm not trying
to be offensive. You or anyone else who thinks like that needs to develop
a stronger mind set.

maregal wrote: »

"Man up and grow some balls". Great advice.

I didn't tell you to man up. I told you to be mentally stronger. It's
more dignified and you'll do better in every aspect of life.

maregal · 28-10-2016 08:10PM

Ted111 wrote: »

I didn't tell you to man up. I told you to be mentally stronger. It's more dignified and you'll do better in every aspect of life.

No need to worry about me friend. Long ago I decided I was done with women and I've never been happier. I enjoy reading, going to the gym and traveling with all my spare time and cash. More time to dedicate to my career also. It's amazing how much your standard of living improves once you remove women from their pedestal.

Ted111 · 28-10-2016 08:18PM

maregal wrote: »

No need to worry about me friend. Long ago I decided I was done with women and I've never been happier. I enjoy reading, going to the gym and traveling with all my spare time and cash. More time to dedicate to my career also. It's amazing how much your standard of living improves once you remove women from their pedestal.

Glad to hear it.

Zubeneschamali · 28-10-2016 08:21PM

Well, you can't really join the priesthood or the Brothers anymore...

intheclouds · 28-10-2016 08:36PM

maregal wrote: »

Smear your opponent as mentally ill and you can dismiss his arguments. Disgusting tactic.

The writing is on the wall. Male unemployment is up. Male suicide is up. Divorces are up. Males entering college is down. Anecdotally, the amount of guys in their mid 20s still living at home, single, and unemployed or working a dead end minimum wage job is staggering. Spend a few minutes reading the threads in this forum. It wasn't like this 20 years ago where a young educated man could get earn a decent wage straight out of college and buy a home to raise a family. I'm trying to ignite a discussion as to what has changed but it's being constantly derailed by smears aimed at myself.

You're not making any arguments though. Your just sort of shouting "women hate men so I don't need women so there". On repeat.

No smearing at all, actually some advice meant for your own good.

It can't feel very nice to be so wrapped up in hatred. It's a skewed perspective.

Society is different for everyone. Society changes. When I was young only one salary was needed to support a family and buy a home. Today 2 sometimes isn't even enough for that.

It's not a man hating conspiracy.

BrianD3 · 28-10-2016 08:38PM

Owryan wrote: »

Women are just as much affected by the jobs situation.

No, they're not. As a result of hypergamy, lack of income/resources/status affects men much more than it affects women.

Also, as the OP says, if there is a gender quota (either official or unofficial) in place in a workplace it is invariably going to favour women, not men.

Doesn't particularly affect me - I'm nearly 40 and have plenty of money and a house with no mortgage. I'm stuck in something of a rut in my career but still have a secure job with an above average salary. Physically I'm in great shape. I have no plans to enter a long term relationship or get married. I regularly get young girls in their early-mid 20s flirting with me.

Whenever I read articles relating to employment and careers in the print media the topic is usually one of the following
-celebrating the fact that a woman has become a CEO or started her own successful company
-complaining about there not being enough female CEOs

Men and the issues that affect thousands of men are generally ignored. I look forward to reading an article along the lines of the following:

-young man of 18 comes from a family that is not well off and can't afford to "have him on the payroll" after this age and his parents hope that he can move out
-he doesn't want to live at home anyway as he'll get people (women) mocking him as a loser who lives with his mammy
-whether he decides to go to third level education or not he must get a job either part time or full time
-he struggles badly to get a job
-rent prices are absurd
-he could move to somewhere with cheaper rents (eg Longford, Leitrim) but there are even fewer jobs there and public transport is crap so he'll need a car. Car insurance prices are absurd, even getting driving lessons is a major financial strain.
-girls his age are paying attention to older men with jobs and money and ignoring him as he's a "loser" who doesn't have a car and the latest iPhone.

Scenarios such as above added to the availability of MGTOW and red pill websites may contribute to men dropping out of society.

And obviously I haven't even mentioned other stuff like "rape culture", manning up, teaching men not to rape, consent classes in university etc.

Blacktie. · 28-10-2016 08:42PM

maregal wrote:

No need to worry about me friend. Long ago I decided I was done with women and I've never been happier. I enjoy reading, going to the gym and traveling with all my spare time and cash. More time to dedicate to my career also. It's amazing how much your standard of living improves once you remove women from their pedestal.

Cool. Maybe stop bragging about it and get on with your life then.

eviltwin · 28-10-2016 08:51PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

No, they're not. As a result of hypergamy, lack of income/resources/status affects men much more than it affects women.

Also, as the OP says, if there is a gender quota (either official or unofficial) in place in a workplace it is invariably going to favour women, not men.

Doesn't particularly affect me - I'm nearly 40 and have plenty of money and a house with no mortgage. I'm stuck in something of a rut in my career but still have a secure job with an above average salary. Physically I'm in great shape. I have no plans to enter a long term relationship or get married. I regularly get young girls in their early-mid 20s flirting with me.

Whenever I read articles relating to employment and careers in the print media the topic is usually one of the following
-celebrating the fact that a woman has become a CEO or started her own successful company
-complaining about there not being enough female CEOs

Men and the issues that affect thousands of men are generally ignored. I look forward to reading an article along the lines of the following:

-young man of 18 comes from a family that is not well off and can't afford to "have him on the payroll" after this age and his parents hope that he can move out
-he doesn't want to live at home anyway as he'll get people (women) mocking him as a loser who lives with his mammy
-whether he decides to go to third level education or not he must get a job either part time or full time
-he struggles badly to get a job
-rent prices are absurd
-he could move to somewhere with cheaper rents (eg Longford, Leitrim) but there are even fewer jobs there and public transport is crap so he'll need a car. Car insurance prices are absurd, even getting driving lessons is a major financial strain.
-girls his age are paying attention to older men with jobs and money and ignoring him as he's a "loser" who doesn't have a car and the latest iPhone.

Scenarios such as above added to the availability of MGTOW and red pill websites may contribute to men dropping out of society.

And obviously I haven't even mentioned other stuff like "rape culture", manning up, teaching men not to rape, consent classes in university etc.

And the response to that is to cut yourself off from women? Seems a bit extreme. Women are not the enemy.

Owryan · 28-10-2016 08:58PM

Why do you assume divorce is only against men?

It's easy to take information, extract what you need and spin it to suit your agenda.

I'm a 41yo single male, in college and yes most of my "classmates" are female, but it's a course dominated by females. There are other courses that are male dominated.

There are plenty of young females still living at home and unemployed or working in low paid jobs.

Maybe more men are on the live register because more men are in the labour force than females.

Claiming men are hated because they are men is not true.

Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

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