Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Iwasfrozen · 26-10-2016 02:08AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you referring to ww1 or ww2?

2

tomwaterford · 26-10-2016 04:57AM

maryishere wrote: »

At least you do not think that relatively small number (compared to the 100,000 who volunteered with British forces in WW2 ) fought "thanks to the US" (see your post no 716, which fails to make sense )

Anyway, enough off thread talk : my posts 706 and 712 were an attempt to get this thread back on topic, about Brexit.

Wass all this off tread nonsense about WW2 started over avoidance on shameful comments relating to Immigrants that Brexiters are attempting to let quietly slide??

Peregrinus · 26-10-2016 05:12AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Wass all this off tread nonsense about WW2 started over avoidance on shameful comments relating to Immigrants that Brexiters are attempting to let quietly slide??

No, I think if you drill down you'll find it started as a spin-off from the discussion of Del.Montes post on the defence implications of Brexit:

Del.Monte wrote: »

The dangerous part of it all is that Putin may see an opportunity to have a go at the Baltic states with the UK out of the EU. Although the UK will still be in NATO there may be little appetite to come to the aid of the ungrateful Europeans again and the US can no longer be counted on. Anyway, World peace is safe until after the Soccer World Cup in 2018 as Putin wouldn't want to spoil his ultimate wet dream by starting WW.III.

Del.Monte obviously has a low opinion of the British if he imagines that they will regard their having left the EU as a reason for welching on their NATO obligations.

And I don't have to point out that if the UK were to take such a position - which I doubt - then all the hopes expressed in this thread for good relationships between the UK on the one hand and the US and Canada on the other leading to early and favourable trade deals would be comprehensively dashed.

drdeadlift · 26-10-2016 08:11AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The people who made those promises should be forced to honour them out of their own pockets.

You didnt understand this point.

Iwasfrozen · 26-10-2016 08:38AM

If there was no channel there would be no Britain...

My point is even without American and Soviet help an invasion of Britain was unrealistic.

FrancieBrady · 26-10-2016 08:42AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, I think if you drill down you'll find it started as a spin-off from the discussion of Del.Montes post on the defence implications of Brexit:

Del.Monte obviously has a low opinion of the British if he imagines that they will regard their having left the EU as a reason for welching on their NATO obligations.

And I don't have to point out that if the UK were to take such a position - which I doubt - then all the hopes expressed in this thread for good relationships between the UK on the one hand and the US and Canada on the other leading to early and favourable trade deals would be comprehensively dashed.

It isn't a case of welching, it is a case of being useless to the Americans - the reason they had such a high position/regard in NATO in the first place.
The UK has being playing bitch to America for decades now, a connection for Washington to the Germans and French and the rest of Europe which is becoming increasing volatile politically and with growing anti American sentiment.

Out of Europe, the UK can no longer offer this conduit to the rest of the EU and the US will have to deal more directly with Paris and Berlin.
The UK which has for a long time, punched above it's weight not to mention, it's investment, will find itself heading down the league table in NATO too.
Brexit has huge implications for Britains already fading role in NATO and in foreign policy.

Fratton Fred · 26-10-2016 08:44AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It isn't a case of welching, it is a case of being useless to the Americans - the reason they had such a high position/regard in NATO in the first place.
The UK has being playing bitch to America for decades now, a connection for them to the Germans and French and the rest of Europe which is becoming increasing volatile politically and anti American sentiment.

Out of Europe, the UK can no longer offer this conduit to the rest of the EU and the US will have to deal more directly with Paris and Berlin.
The UK which has for a long time, punched above it's weight not to mention, it's investment, will find itself heading down the league table in NATO too.

a hungry fox noticed a bunch of juicy grapes hanging from a vine. After several failed attempts to reach the grapes, the fox gave up and insisted that he didn't want them anyway because they were probably sour.

Iwasfrozen · 26-10-2016 08:47AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It isn't a case of welching, it is a case of being useless to the Americans - the reason they had such a high position/regard in NATO in the first place.
The UK has being playing bitch to America for decades now, a connection for them to the Germans and French and the rest of Europe which is becoming increasing volatile politically and anti American sentiment.

Out of Europe, the UK can no longer offer this conduit to the rest of the EU and the US will have to deal more directly with Paris and Berlin.
The UK which has for a long time, punched above it's weight not to mention, it's investment, will find itself heading down the league table in NATO too.

You're a funny guy. The British have the most powerful military in western Europe. Capable of force projection where Germany is not.

FrancieBrady · 26-10-2016 09:09AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're a funny guy. The British have the most powerful military in western Europe. Capable of force projection where Germany is not.

Britain's military capability has been in decline for some time now. It's defence budget cannot help but come under pressure if recession is a consequence of Brexit,
Britain's 'special relationship' with the US is based on providing access and influence for Washington, to Europe.
Other European powers have signalled that NATO may not be the way forward for Europe and they have eyes on a European defence force.
You are deluded if you think that Brexit doesn't have major implications for the UK's military influence and place.

What is 'funny' or untrue about that assessment?

demfad · 26-10-2016 09:48AM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Although the UK will still be in NATO there may be little appetite to come to the aid of the ungrateful Europeans again and the US can no longer be counted on. Anyway, World peace is safe until after the Soccer World Cup in 2018 as Putin wouldn't want to spoil his ultimate wet dream by starting WW.III.

You do understand that the UK voted to leave the EU and not vice versa?

Fratton Fred · 26-10-2016 09:58AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Other European powers have signalled that NATO may not be the way forward for Europe and they have eyes on a European defence force.

and how does that fit in with Ireland's supposed neutrality?

Iwasfrozen · 26-10-2016 09:59AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Britain's military capability has been in decline for some time now. It's defence budget cannot help but come under pressure if recession is a consequence of Brexit,
Britain's 'special relationship' with the US is based on providing access and influence for Washington, to Europe.
Other European powers have signalled that NATO may not be the way forward for Europe and they have eyes on a European defence force.
You are deluded if you think that Brexit doesn't have major implications for the UK's military influence and place.

What is 'funny' or untrue about that assessment?

Whether its in decline or not its still the strongest in western Europe with the second best power projection capabilities in the world.

The funny thing is you think Europe is moving away from American military patronage.

A United European mulitary wont happen. Eastern Europe is dead against it and this region will recieve substantial military aid from the US to act as a bulwark against Russia.

Iwasfrozen · 26-10-2016 10:01AM

Land and air forces sure, German naval power was far inferior.

FrancieBrady · 26-10-2016 10:06AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and how does that fit in with Ireland's supposed neutrality?

That is another debate altogether and for another thread.
This conversation is about the implications for the UK's defence forces and their place in the world and NATO.

You would have to have your head in the sand not to have read the worries of the US and the UK on this.
If you read only the Mail and other tabloids then ignore the above and go directly here.
http://tiny.cc/8i7bgy

Fratton Fred · 26-10-2016 10:11AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is another debate altogether and for another thread.
This conversation is about the implications for the UK's defence forces and their place in the world and NATO.

You would have to have your head in the sand not to have read the worries of the US and the UK on this.
If you read only the Mail and other tabloids then ignore the above and go directly here.
http://tiny.cc/8i7bgy

oh dear. More lilttle Irelander nonsense.

demfad · 26-10-2016 10:13AM

Ireland's food industry will take a massive hit.

I think we really need a ministry for the task ahead especially if its hard Brexit.

Del.Monte · 26-10-2016 10:14AM

demfad wrote: »

You do understand that the UK voted to leave the EU and not vice versa?

Does not compute - plain English please.

Del.Monte · 26-10-2016 10:15AM

Have you ever read a history book?

Fratton Fred · 26-10-2016 10:16AM

demfad wrote: »

Ireland's food industry will take a massive hit.

I think we really need a ministry for the task ahead especially if its hard Brexit.

I would imagine the Pharma industry, along with the likes of Apple, Google, Microsoft and HP would want to make their case heard as well.

tomwaterford · 26-10-2016 10:18AM

demfad wrote: »

Ireland's food industry will take a massive hit.

I think we really need a ministry for the task ahead especially if its hard Brexit.

Tbf....the Brexiters have gone quite on that nonsense of a hard exit

Reality is slowly setting in for them that it'll be much the same as eu membership for them.....with two choices no tariffs and free movement of people and services

Or vice versa

FrancieBrady · 26-10-2016 10:23AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

oh dear. More lilttle Irelander nonsense.

So what are you saying here Fred?

The UK's defence forces despite a small re-investment are not in decline overall?
The the UK's 'special relationship' with the US is not based on it's usefullness as an influence in Europe?
That rather than being able to take part as it once did in military action, the UK is actually unable to and has quietly pulled out of some operations or not gone at all.

That Brexit has no implications for it's role in NATO?

Go on Fred, instead of falling back on name calling, tell us what you are basing your points on. And 'just because you say so, so therefore it is so' and Iwasfrozen thanks your post, doesn't count as a 'basis'.

beach_walker · 26-10-2016 10:24AM

Another day, another poll. I think the bottom sentence is the only constant.

As Britain prepares to exit the European Union, over half of adults polled cite an influx of foreigners as more worrisome than losing EU trade benefits, said the poll conducted by Survation Ltd for ITV plc. Fifty-eight percent of respondents said they approve May’s handling of the divorce, with only a quarter saying that they disapproved.

Should another referendum take place now, 47 percent of respondents would vote “Leave”, compared with 46 percent who would vote “Remain.” Still a tight race then, with 7 percent undecided.

Not all surveys of public opinion are favoring May’s read of what Britons want. A poll released last week, for example, found that the balance tipped in favor of single market access rather than immigration limits. Either way, both polls show a nation divided.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-24/britons-happy-to-sacrifice-trade-for-fewer-foreigners-poll-says

Fratton Fred · 26-10-2016 11:04AM

oh god. we've had this discussion before and you didn't listen then, so here goes.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So what are you saying here Fred?

The UK's defence forces despite a small re-investment are not in decline overall?

It is smaller, which reflects the changing world. The equipment is as advanced as it has ever been though. The UK still invest 2% of its GDP in its defence capabilities, which is in line with NATO guidelines.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The the UK's 'special relationship' with the US is not based on it's usefullness as an influence in Europe?

The relationship is based on the fact there are shared ideals with regards world politics. Being in the eu helps that, but being the US' strongest NATO ally is far more important.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That rather than being able to take part as it once did in military action, the UK is actually unable to and has quietly pulled out of some operations or not gone at all.

such as?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That Brexit has no implications for it's role in NATO?

Nope, none whatsoever.

steddyeddy · 26-10-2016 11:06AM

demfad wrote: »

Ireland's food industry will take a massive hit.

I think we really need a ministry for the task ahead especially if its hard Brexit.

We definitely need a minister for Brexit.

steddyeddy · 26-10-2016 11:06AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

oh god. we've had this discussion before and you didn't listen then, so here goes.

It is smaller, which reflects the changing world. The equipment is as advanced as it has ever been though. The UK still invest 2% of its GDP in its defence capabilities, which is in line with NATO guidelines.

The relationship is based on the fact there are shared ideals with regards world politics. Being in the eu helps that, but being the US' strongest NATO ally is far more important.

such as?

Nope, none whatsoever.

Get a room you two and stop flirting.

steddyeddy · 26-10-2016 11:19AM

Britain played a huge part on WW2 so I'm not going to debate that. What I will say is that a lot of the British who fought in WW2 would be ashamed of the anti-European sentiment that's happening today. Great video below. One of my colleagues here is 80 years of age and rightly says that Brexit was a vote for nostalgia. Those who voted for nostalgia have short memories it seems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvKiRYlDslQ

Fratton Fred · 26-10-2016 11:19AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Get a room you two and stop flirting.

steddyeddy · 26-10-2016 11:20AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Stop flirting with me too. My bread isn't buttered that way.

Fratton Fred · 26-10-2016 11:24AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Stop flirting with me too. My bread isn't buttered that way.

don't knock it till you've tried it

Fratton Fred · 26-10-2016 11:26AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Britain played a huge part on WW2 so I'm not going to debate that. What I will say is that a lot of the British who fought in WW2 would be ashamed of the anti-European sentiment that's happening today. Great video below. One of my colleagues here is 80 years of age and rightly says that Brexit was a vote for nostalgia. Those who voted for nostalgia have short memories it seems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvKiRYlDslQ

I remember seeing similar arguments when the NF were in their heyday. "We didn't fight for all these foreigners to come over here".

maybe, but you fought against fascism and supporting a fascist organisation is the biggest way to disrespect those that died.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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