Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

tipptom · 23-10-2016 06:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's how clubs work; if you're in the club you get the benefits; if you're not in it you won't get the benefits. In the mindset of the Brexiters who are convinced they have a right to get all the benefits of EU membership without its obligations, they will therefore be "punished". Quite right. What's the point in having a club if outsiders get the benefits? It's absolutely delusional to expect the Brits to have all the privileges of the club but none of its obligations. Delusional, self-entitlement.

Ah here, you've got to be taking the piss with this one. Is that the same Britain that in 2016 has a head of state who is there because of her blood and her religion? Hello? Or the same Britain which in 2016 has an unelected parliament which is also there because of its blood and/or religion? The same Britain whose media in 2016 is controlled by a handful of really rich rightwing jingoists, the most powerful of whom is on record as being against the EU because he cannot ring somebody up and corrupt the democratic process like he could always do with the Tories in power - e.g. "lift the restrictions on media ownership, Maggie, and all my newspapers will support the Tory party." What a fantastic "democratic" exchange, that.

The way to where? Inferior workers' rights? Even lower taxes on the rich and their corporations? Even more dominance by oligarchs like Murdoch? Even more scapegoating of the EU by Britain's powerful for British poor being shafted by cheap foreign labour that benefits rich British people?

You do realise that the Queen is just a figurehead and one of the biggest tourist attractions in the world.They are quite entitled to have a Queen if they want as is Spain etc etc.

As for the British media,it is only in the hapenny place compared to Irelands corrupt media barons,Murphy,De Valera,O Reilly,O Brien.At least Murdoch only inconvenienced PMs with phone calls,ours were summoned down to Cork to holiday homes to get a dressing down at the feet of media barons.

What sort od democracy exists in the EU that has the likes of failed incompetents like Phil Hogan running things?

A Little Pony · 23-10-2016 07:06PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Don't be bitter that we are leaving the tyrannical European Union. Ulster will just be fine.

Ulster is an ancient Irish province and isn't going anywhere. Why are you trying to confuse the northeast of Ireland's dependency on England with Ulster?

Who is we?

Ulster will certainly overcome any negatives to Brexit and the positives will outdo the negatives in the long run. For someone who advocates Independence, you certainly don't like it when it is British people gaining Independence back.

Nate--IRL-- · 23-10-2016 07:09PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ulster will certainly overcome any negatives to Brexit and the positives will outdo the negatives in the long run.

I have to say I don't see anything of tangible benefit for the North in the long run. Can I ask from where your optimism stems?

Nate

catbear · 23-10-2016 07:14PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ulster will certainly overcome any negatives to Brexit and the positives will outdo the negatives in the long run. For someone who advocates Independence, you certainly don't like it when it is British people gaining Independence back.

The UK never lost sovereignty. If they had they'd be fighting there way out of the union like Ireland had to. The EU has encouraged the UK to hurry up with withdrawing.

What the UK did lose was an empire and haven't really accepted that.

You're on my ignore list now.

darkpagandeath · 23-10-2016 07:15PM

Mutters of 10% corpo tax in the UK.

A Little Pony · 23-10-2016 07:17PM

catbear wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ulster will certainly overcome any negatives to Brexit and the positives will outdo the negatives in the long run. For someone who advocates Independence, you certainly don't like it when it is British people gaining Independence back.

The UK never lost sovereignty. If they had they'd be fighting there way out of the union like Ireland had to. The EU has encouraged the UK to hurry up with withdrawing.

What the UK did lose was an empire and haven't really accepted that.

You're on my ignore list now.

The argument against entering the EU even in the 70s was the lose of sovereignty, even Enoch Powell was making the case against it because of the loss of sovereignty. The UK never should have joined the EU and I am just thankful we are finally leaving this despotic institution.

FrancieBrady · 23-10-2016 07:30PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The argument against entering the EU even in the 70s was the lose of sovereignty, even Enoch Powell was making the case against it because of the loss of sovereignty. The UK never should have joined the EU and I am just thankful we are finally leaving this despotic institution.

They never really did fu!ly join and spent most of the time whinging about it all.
That will go against them too.
I'm not sure a DUP supporter would recognise sovereignty any way, they have been doing what they were told since partition, including accepting an implementing an agreement they were vehemently against.

maryishere · 23-10-2016 07:43PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They never really did fu!ly join and spent most of the time whinging about it all.

lol. Never join fully? They were its second biggest contributor. And Ireland's main ally in Europe. Ask the grinning Albert Reynolds (our then Taoiseach) at the time when he returned from an EU meeting in Edinburgh with a cheque for £10 billion ( that £10,000,000,000.00 ) in his back pocket. About 1992 I think it was, when money was money.
I remember many decent British people I met were amazed at the time....no wonder they lost confidence in the EC.

tipptom · 23-10-2016 07:45PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ulster will certainly overcome any negatives to Brexit and the positives will outdo the negatives in the long run. For someone who advocates Independence, you certainly don't like it when it is British people gaining Independence back.

Cant see them big Ulster farmers seeing any positives when the big cheques stop flying in!!

catbear · 23-10-2016 07:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm not sure a DUP supporter would recognise sovereignty any way, they have been doing what they were told since partition, including accepting an implementing an agreement they were vehemently against.

We should sponsor a running track for them and call it the Queens Highway so they can stay in that loop while everyone just gets on with living.

However I wouldn't be too harsh about the UK not giving it a try, I reckon they supported it through the cold war but once German unification happened (which they objected to) they lost interest.

kingchess · 23-10-2016 07:51PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The UK has a larger population than Canada, is the fifth largest economy in the world, and the 7th largest trading partner with the US.

The problem with the transatlantic trade agreement between the EU and the US was not so much about scale of efficiency but internal political problems within the EU and the US. Canada and the EU have been trying to make a trade deal for 27 years, all members states are on favor but the plan is being blocked by Wallonia.

In comparison the UK speaks with one voice and it shares the US' cultural affinity for free trade. In a world were the transatlantic agreement is being attacked on both sides a deal between the UK and US would be much easier to sell.

You also underestimate the UK's importance in the world. Here's Mike Froman the US trade rep and an actual expert speaking on the matter.

[url]Http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/16/theresa-may-plans-for-brexit-trade-deals-with-the-usa-and-austra/[/url]

That's right, the UK leaving is making the US reassess their deal with the EU.

Is this the same mike froman who said the above on the 16th july and have this to say on the 22-sept-2016 on bloomberg (cant post links)that the UK is now at the back of the line for a trade deal, that it needs to sort out its relationship with EU first "is it in a customs union with EU,does it have control over tariffs,does it have control over regulations?".His priority is the TTIP DEAL.
Is this the same actual expert ??

FrancieBrady · 23-10-2016 07:53PM

maryishere wrote: »

lol. Never join fully? They were its second biggest contributor. And Ireland's main ally in Europe. Ask the grinning Albert Reynolds (our then Taoiseach) at the time when he returned from an EU meeting in Edinburgh with a cheque for £10 billion ( that £10,000,000,000.00 ) in his back pocket. About 1992 I think it was, when money was money.
I remember many decent British people I met were amazed at the time....no wonder they lost confidence in the EC.

And Britain vetoing reform of the single farm payment so that their richest farmers got richer? (Mrs Windsor gets half a million from it)

Did that cause any smiles?
Albert didn't steal anything.

maryishere · 23-10-2016 07:57PM

tipptom wrote: »

Cant see them big Ulster farmers seeing any positives when the big cheques stop flying in!!

Food from the island of Ireland should speak for itself / sell itself.
Many a farmer in Greece and Italy and Spain and Ireland got money off the UK (and German) taxpayer too. The farmers in New Zealand and Argentina can supply food now in exchange for a few land rovers;). And Australian and Californian wine will be bought with less duty instead of that french plonk.

Nate--IRL-- · 23-10-2016 08:03PM

maryishere wrote: »

Food from the island of Ireland should speak for itself / sell itself.
Many a farmer in Greece and Italy and Spain and Ireland got money off the UK (and German) taxpayer too. The farmers in New Zealand and Argentina can supply food now in exchange for a few land rovers;). And Australian and Californian wine will be bought with less duty instead of that french plonk.

This post makes no sense.

Nate

kingchess · 23-10-2016 08:07PM

maryishere wrote: »

Food from the island of Ireland should speak for itself / sell itself.
Many a farmer in Greece and Italy and Spain and Ireland got money off the UK (and German) taxpayer too. The farmers in New Zealand and Argentina can supply food now in exchange for a few land rovers;). And Australian and Californian wine will be bought with less duty instead of that french plonk.

Any chance they could import some Bankers and Banks from there as well to make up for the ones who will relocate to the EU??

maryishere · 23-10-2016 08:07PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And Britain vetoing reform of the single farm payment so that their richest farmers got richer? (Mrs Windsor gets half a million from it)

Did that cause any smiles?
Albert didn't steal anything.

Albert Reynolds deal he pulled off at the EU summit in Edinburgh in December 1992 was for €8 billion in structural and cohesion funds for Ireland - it was nothing to do with the billions our farmers got each year. People who had farms and who met qualifying criteria got single farm payments - we done much better out of the EC than the UK as the UK were net contributors. We have more farms per head of population.

maryishere · 23-10-2016 08:09PM

kingchess wrote: »

Any chance they could import some Bankers and Banks from there as well to make up for the ones who will relocate to the EU??

Up to them : they have a more successful track record in banking and regulation than we ever had.;)

Capt'n Midnight · 23-10-2016 08:12PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Mutters of 10% corpo tax in the UK.

With the exception of the US Virgin Islands most of the offshore tax havens are UK dependencies.

FrancieBrady · 23-10-2016 08:13PM

maryishere wrote: »

Albert Reynolds deal he pulled off at the EU summit in Edinburgh in December 1992 was for €8 billion in structural and cohesion funds for Ireland - it was nothing to do with the billions our farmers got each year. People who had farms and who met qualifying criteria got single farm payments - we done much better out of the EC than the UK as the UK were net contributors. We have more farms per head of population.

Did he steal the money? No he didn't.
Did Britain whinge about waste in the EU, like you and then veto a reform to ensure their already rich farmers got richer? YES they did.

I'll remind you, Ireland is not leaving the EU whinging about waste and anti democracy. The UK is.

Capt'n Midnight · 23-10-2016 08:37PM

If there is one thing we can agree is that it's our interests to have the UK in Europe.

If Brexit looks like costing us Billions because the UK are playing hardball we should do the same. Tell them that unless they pay us for any loss we will veto any future EU agreement.

FrancieBrady · 23-10-2016 08:45PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If there is one thing we can agree is that it's our interests to have the UK in Europe.

If Brexit looks like costing us Billions because the UK are playing hardball we should do the same. Tell them that unless they pay us for any loss we will veto any future EU agreement.

I'm delighted (for once) that Kenny is trying to woo a few business's to here. We have to be absolutely ruthless in protecting ourselves.

maryishere · 23-10-2016 08:51PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

With the exception of the US Virgin Islands most of the offshore tax havens are UK dependencies.

Actually I looked up a list and the first countries mentioned were listed as follows:
Switzerland
Luxembourg
Netherlands— primarily a conduit tax haven.[36] See also Dutch Sandwich.
Ireland.[38][39][40] See also Double Irish arrangement (to cease entirely by 2020).
United States— favoured for its tax secrecy (see United States as a tax haven)[12]

I know we got a bailout from the UK / EU / IMF a few years ago but you would hardly call us a " UK dependency ", would you?

The Rape of Lucretia · 23-10-2016 09:01PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ulster will certainly overcome any negatives to Brexit and the positives will outdo the negatives in the long run. For someone who advocates Independence, you certainly don't like it when it is British people gaining Independence back.

Anything goes in the long run depending on how you define it.
But for the next 10-20 years, Northern Ireland will pay a heavy price for Brexit - probably the highest price of any region of the UK. However, life will go on. The sky hasnt fallen in. It will be gradual, and people do not generally feel economic growth being one or two percent behind what it otherwise have been. In fact there being no clear sense of what it would be had they stayed in the EU, people will not be able to quantify the cost to their standard of living. But it will be there. I would guess something of the order of 10% over the next 10 years which is very significant, but spread over that time, with probably the biggest single step shock already happening now in the currency devaluation, many will not be that aware of it.

Junkyard Tom · 23-10-2016 09:03PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ulster

The basket case dependency you're referring to in the northeast of Ireland is not Ulster. I can't make it any simpler for you.

solodeogloria · 23-10-2016 09:10PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If there is one thing we can agree is that it's our interests to have the UK in Europe.

If Brexit looks like costing us Billions because the UK are playing hardball we should do the same. Tell them that unless they pay us for any loss we will veto any future EU agreement.

Good evening!

The UK will always be in Europe. It won't be in the European Union. Some people have the notion that Brexit might not happen, but it will and it has to. Brexit it simply about bringing about the democratic will of the British people. The people were clear that they wanted more control on immigration, and that they wanted to be free from the interference of EU laws. The PM is only putting forward the case of the British people.

It's in Ireland's interests for Britains renegotiation to go well. Britain's leaving of the EU has also thrown up some issues for Ireland in the form of both the common military regime, and a common base level of corporate taxation. Both were issues which the UK and Ireland were allies on in Brussels. Now, Ireland has to stand pretty much alone on these issues. Ireland's challenge is to keep corporate America and the European Union happy at the same time.

I think they won't be able to do that.

With thanks,
solodeogloria

catbear · 23-10-2016 09:24PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If there is one thing we can agree is that it's our interests to have the UK in Europe.

If Brexit looks like costing us Billions because the UK are playing hardball we should do the same. Tell them that unless they pay us for any loss we will veto any future EU agreement.

Good evening!

The UK will always be in Europe. It won't be in the European Union. Some people have the notion that Brexit might not happen, but it will and it has to. Brexit it simply about bringing about the democratic will of the British people. The people were clear that they wanted more control on immigration, and that they wanted to be free from the interference of EU laws. The PM is only putting forward the case of the British people.

It's in Ireland's interests for Britains renegotiation to go well. Britain's leaving of the EU has also thrown up some issues for Ireland in the form of both the common military regime, and a common base level of corporate taxation. Both were issues which the UK and Ireland were allies on in Brussels. Now, Ireland has to stand pretty much alone on these issues. Ireland's challenge is to keep corporate America and the European Union happy at the same time.

I think they won't be able to do that.

With thanks,
solodeogloria

The thaw in Anglo Irish relations only happened through shared membership of the EU. Ireland and the UK are not military allies.

Membership of the EU allowed Ireland to bypass the UK market and expand globally.

You're going on my ignore list.

Junkyard Tom · 23-10-2016 09:34PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

The people were clear that they wanted ... to be free from the interference of EU laws.

As far as I know Britain will be harmonising British laws and regulations with those of the EU so as to minimise the impact on Brexit.

The Rape of Lucretia · 23-10-2016 09:44PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

As far as I know Britain will be harmonising British laws and regulations with those of the EU so as to minimise the impact on Brexit.

Harmonising as a prelude to modifying them as they wish, so as not to have a legal black hole following Brexit.
Not harmonising them so as to track EU laws in the longer term or for new ones. That would be utterly bonkers - leave the EU and still mirror its laws. Rather than taking back control, that we be giving away the little control they did have while part of the EU decision making process.

R P McMurphy · 23-10-2016 10:02PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Harmonising as a prelude to modifying them as they wish, so as not to have a legal black hole following Brexit.
Not harmonising them so as to track EU laws in the longer term or for new ones. That would be utterly bonkers - leave the EU and still mirror its laws. Rather than taking back control, that we be giving away the little control they did have while part of the EU decision making process.

That is exactly what the end result will be. A lose-lose situation

The Rape of Lucretia · 23-10-2016 10:11PM

R P McMurphy wrote: »

That is exactly what the end result will be. A lose-lose situation

No. A win-lose situation, with the win greater than than the lose. The win being taking back control, and the lose being an economic cost. But overall, in the eyes of the British, a net win. It depends what you are in into. If you value having control, then its worth while. And the British have decided that it is.

Outsiders, only looking at the economic angle, are missing this aspect completely and think the British have gone loopy. But they havent. It is in accordance with British values, and reclaiming that democratically is a great freedom and power to have.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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