SFC Final - Dublin v Mayo - Read Mod Note in post #1 & #1393

The Talking Bread · 13-09-2016 11:21PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Maybe he will prove me wrong on Sunday but Cillian O'Connor would not be anywhere near that Dublin team at the moment. His biggest strength is his free taking and Rock is a better free taker. Rock has also contributed more from play for Dublin this year (Rock won a good chunk of his own frees against Kerry for example) than O'Connor has for Mayo.

I agree with most of the others you mention though - Keegan & Boyle would probably make the Dublin team. I doubt Higgins would now. Parsons would want to be starting for Mayo before we start saying he is good enough to make the Dublin team! A fully fit Parsons would definitely compete for a place but I am doubtful I'd select him above Fenton or McCauley.

no he isnt. There isnt a whole between them but i would imagine most teams would have COC over Rock for free kicks. Much better range and better at angle kicking generally.

Gael85 · 13-09-2016 11:21PM

toffeeshel wrote: »

Paul Mannion can kick them too.

But apart from Rock, Brogan, Costello, Mannion and Cluxton who have Dublin got to take frees?

We've Declan Darcy on the bench too

Stoner · 13-09-2016 11:24PM

TCDStudent1 wrote:

I agree with most of the others you mention though - Keegan & Boyle would probably make the Dublin team. I doubt Higgins would now. Parsons would want to be starting for Mayo before we start saying he is good enough to make the Dublin team! A fully fit Parsons would definitely compete for a place but I am doubtful I'd select him above Fenton or McCauley.

I'm similar, but different.

Boyle no, Higgins yes. No way Boyle would push Keegan O'Sullivan or McCarthy out for a spot on the HB line. I'd have Small ahead of Boyle too mainly for temperament though.

Parsons and McCauley would flight it out alright. MDMA has been a good big game player for Dublin vs Mayo so who knows it will all come down to it on the day I guess. Parsons has a lot going for him though.

Bunny Colvin · 13-09-2016 11:24PM

Slattsy wrote: »

Is there boil water notice still on in Mayo at the moment?
You know you should heed the County Councils advice because whatever chemicals are in it have clearly gone to your head son.

I'd take Keegan, he's quality, and maybe Higgins.
The rest are bench fodder.

The boil water ended today

Maybe Higgins? The guy is probably the best player I've play for Mayo and hasn't slowed down yet. Look at the All-Stars he's won if you've never watched him play.

As for the rest, you really think they'd all be on the bench?

Look, we get it. Dublin are a serious team but there's not point in going OTT and coming across as deluded. Remember, Dublin are only one defeat away from being analysed very differently.

This Mayo team hasn't won an All-Ireland but they've been at the top table for the last five years now. They've beaten Cork, Dublin, Donegal, Tyrone in knock out games in that time, having closely contested defeats to Dublin and Donegal in finals and taking Dublin/Kerry to replays in the semis. They deserve respect, saying you'd only take Keegan is as disrespectful as it is daft.

Bunny Colvin · 13-09-2016 11:27PM

ProudDUB wrote: »

Tom Parsons start for Dublin? ROFL.

No need for either of the O'Connors. We already have a free taker and the younger lad is not tried and tested in games at the very highest level. Looks a very promising talent, but still an unproven quantity.

Moran, too old.

O'Shea, lacks the pace and mobilty for this Dublin team. We don't need a traditional horse of man midfielder.

Higgins. Possibly.

Keegan. I'd bit your arm off for him, every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

TCDStudent1 · 13-09-2016 11:30PM

Stoner wrote: »

I'm similar, but different.

Boyle no, Higgins yes. No way Boyle would push Keegan O'Sullivan or McCarthy out for a spot on the HB line. I'd have Small ahead of Boyle too mainly for temperament though.

Parsons and McCauley would flight it out alright. MDMA has been a good big game player for Dublin vs Mayo so who knows it will all come down to it on the day I guess. Parsons has a lot going for him though.

When I was thinking through it, I was thinking the same as you. But I said I would move Keegan or Boyle into the FB line to make room for everybody. Keegan showed against Tyrone that he can be effective playing near his own goal. So I wasnt looking at a direct comparison with the HB line and played around with it a little. I just get a sense that Higgins is not the player he was a few years ago. Boyle is such a tenacious, hard-working player. He wins such much hard ball. He has to be in the top 6 backs between these 2 teams for me!

TCDStudent1 · 13-09-2016 11:37PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

no he isnt. There isnt a whole between them but i would imagine most teams would have COC over Rock for free kicks. Much better range and better at angle kicking generally.

I would love to see some stats on this actually. Would make great reading! It could well be that I am not remembering so well but Rock has had a great year on frees. I saw a graphic recently showing his free kicks and where he has scored & missed from and it was extremely impressive. Cant remember where I saw it now so cant find it.

I am pretty sure that O'Connor has missed some frees this year that you would normally expect him to put over. Maybe he is a little more ambitious and takes on frees that Rock doesnt. But if that is the case, then it is a + for Rock that he is more aware of his capability. Anyway, I am just speculating - maybe somebody has stats that shows one has been better at frees this year than the other.

Bunny Colvin · 13-09-2016 11:42PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Maybe he will prove me wrong on Sunday but Cillian O'Connor would not be anywhere near that Dublin team at the moment. His biggest strength is his free taking and Rock is a better free taker. Rock has also contributed more from play for Dublin this year (Rock won a good chunk of his own frees against Kerry for example) than O'Connor has for Mayo.

I agree with most of the others you mention though - Keegan & Boyle would probably make the Dublin team. I doubt Higgins would now. Parsons would want to be starting for Mayo before we start saying he is good enough to make the Dublin team! A fully fit Parsons would definitely compete for a place but I am doubtful I'd select him above Fenton or McCauley.

Rock still has to prove it on the big stage more times than Cillian to say he's a better free taker. When does Cillian O'Connor have a bad day with frees? Very rarely, he doesn't miss the pressure ones either.
He kept us in that All-Ireland in '13 with his free taking. Look at last year's two games as well. He is ice cold with frees.

I agree he hasn't looked himself this year from open play, wasn't great the year before either, so he still has to get back to form. Injuries didn't help and the fact he's been on the road for a while now, but he went through a great patch of setting up scores and scoring goals. Thought he showed glimpses of his old self against Tyrone but needs to show up on Sunday in open play.

I haven't seen Higgins slow down yet. Still a quality player but he is getting on now.

Parsons has been injured alright this year, he would have started every game otherwise. He's just being nursed back to full fitness as an impact sub. He wasn't selected for years but there was always a player in there. Great addition to the panel the last two seasons, gives good fielding, mobility and a bit of leadership.

ProudDUB · 13-09-2016 11:44PM

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I would love to see some stats on this actually. Would make great reading! It could well be that I am not remembering so well but Rock has had a great year on frees. I saw a graphic recently showing his free kicks and where he has scored & missed from and it was extremely impressive. Cant remember where I saw it now so cant find it.

I am pretty sure that O'Connor has missed some frees this year that you would normally expect him to put over. Maybe he is a little more ambitious and takes on frees that Rock doesnt. But if that is the case, then it is a + for Rock that he is more aware of his capability. Anyway, I am just speculating - maybe somebody has stats that shows one has been better at frees this year than the other.

Check out the last 3-4 pages of the Dublin thread, for said stats. We have some real spiffy charts and graphs too.

TCDStudent1 · 13-09-2016 11:44PM

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

Rock still has to prove it on the big stage more times than Cillian to say he's a better free taker. When does Cillian O'Connor have a bad day with frees? Very rarely, he doesn't miss the pressure ones either.
He kept us in that All-Ireland in '13 with his free taking. Look at last year's two games as well. He is ice cold with frees.

I agree he hasn't looked himself this year from open play, wasn't great the year before either, so he still has to get back to form. Injuries didn't help and the fact he's been on the road for a while now, but he went through a great patch of setting up scores and scoring goals. Thought he showed glimpses of his old self against Tyrone but needs to show up on Sunday in open play.

I haven't seen Higgins slow down yet. Still a quality player but he is getting on now.

Parsons has been injured alright this year, he would have started every game otherwise. He's just being nursed back to full fitness as an impact sub. He wasn't selected for years but there was always a player in there. Great addition to the panel the last two seasons, gives good fielding, mobility and a bit of leadership.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-statistics-the-duel-of-the-dead-ball-specialists-1.2783320

Dyr · 13-09-2016 11:46PM

On current form I might take O'shea as a swap for Bastick, Not a hope Keegan would displace McCarthy, maybe he would get in above Small

O'Connor wouldn't be within an asses roar of the full forward line. Good for frees and whinging.

Looking at it differently I think Flynn and Small would be the only players in that dublin 15 who's place would be threatened by a mayo alternate.

Bunny Colvin · 13-09-2016 11:49PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-statistics-the-duel-of-the-dead-ball-specialists-1.2783320

O'Connor's been nailing frees for Mayo for five years now.

This paragraph says a lot too:

Last year Rock’s impeccable free-taking form began to wane as the summer wore on – in the quarter-final, two semi-finals and final he had a ratio of 70 per cent. The Ballymun Kickhams sharpshooter missed all three of his long-range efforts in the drawn and replayed games against Mayo, which led to goalkeeper and captain Stephen Cluxton taking over those duties in the final. He scored just one of four attempts though.

That's not a slight on Dean Rock but O'Connor has a proven record in big games.

TCDStudent1 · 13-09-2016 11:51PM

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

O'Connor's been nailing frees for Mayo for five years now.

This paragraph says a lot too:

That's not a slight on Dean Rock but O'Connor has a proven record in big games.

Except for this year...... Lets say Rock & O'Connor were on an Antrim (just to take out any bias) team together in the AI final this sunday and you were manager, which one would you choose to be free taker?

Bunny Colvin · 13-09-2016 11:53PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Except for this year...... Lets say Rock & O'Connor were on an Antrim (just to take out any bias) team together in the AI final this sunday and you were manager, which one would you choose to be free taker?

O'Connor. If I had a pill that made me forget the previous years and O'Connor's record in big games, I'd choose Rock.

ProudDUB · 13-09-2016 11:57PM

Last year was Dean Rock's first year as our free taker. Cillian O'Connor has been doing it for what, three or four years now, so it's hardly a fair comparison. A 70% conversion rate is none to shabby for your first year in the job. He has gotten even better this year. His free taking was damm near impeccable against Kerry and games don't come much bigger, or much more high pressure than that.

Dyr · 13-09-2016 11:58PM

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

O'Connor's been nailing frees for Mayo for five years now.

This paragraph says a lot too:

That's not a slight on Dean Rock but O'Connor has a proven record in big games.

While we're discussing history Barney Rock had a great track record for frees too

I'll take current form over pub quiz material any day

TCDStudent1 · 14-09-2016 12:05AM

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

O'Connor. If I had a pill that made me forget the previous years and O'Connor's record in big games, I'd choose Rock.

So you are choosing somebody based on previous years form

Surely, you would have to choose based on this year's form? Especially with free taking which is very dependent on the form & confidence of a player.

By the way, I dont mean this as a slight on O'Connor either who is a fantastic free taker. But I would have to say Rock is the better free taker on current form. If I recall correctly, O'Connor missed some very scoreable frees against Galway at a crucial stage in the match - I just could not imagine Rock missing the same.

Anyway, I dont think we will agree. I would choose Rock. But we are comparing 2 wonderful free takers :-) And maybe both will have a stormer from frees on Sunday!

The Talking Bread · 14-09-2016 12:06AM

Bambi wrote: »

While we're discussing history Barney Rock had a great track record for frees too

I'll take current form over pub quiz material any day

Why is his current form so bad anyway? This has become sensationalist mantra over the last fortnight! He missed a few at most, one bad one that triggered this nonsense ,trudging through a lot more games than Dublin have had to over the Summer, and they were more incidental than a reflection on form.

Bunny Colvin · 14-09-2016 12:22AM

ProudDUB wrote: »

Last year was Dean Rock's first year as our free taker. Cillian O'Connor has been doing it for what, three or four years now, so it's hardly a fair comparison. A 70% conversion rate is none to shabby for your first year in the job. He has gotten even better this year. His free taking was damm near impeccable against Kerry and games don't come much bigger, or much more high pressure than that.

Well let him prove he's better than O'Connor so.

Bambi wrote: »

While we're discussing history Barney Rock had a great track record for frees too

I'll take current form over pub quiz material any day

I don't think I even have to respond to this

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

So you are choosing somebody based on previous years form Surely, you would have to choose based on this year's form? Especially with free taking which is very dependent on the form & confidence of a player.

By the way, I dont mean this as a slight on O'Connor either who is a fantastic free taker. But I would have to say Rock is the better free taker on current form. If I recall correctly, O'Connor missed some very scoreable frees against Galway at a crucial stage in the match - I just could not imagine Rock missing the same.

Anyway, I dont think we will agree. I would choose Rock. But we are comparing 2 wonderful free takers :-) And maybe both will have a stormer from frees on Sunday!

O'Connor's form hasn't been near bad enough to stick in a new free taker. He's been tried and tested and has produced the goods. You can't say the same about Rock.

Arse Biscuits · 14-09-2016 12:29AM

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

The boil water ended today

Maybe Higgins? The guy is probably the best player I've play for Mayo and hasn't slowed down yet. Look at the All-Stars he's won if you've never watched him play.

As for the rest, you really think they'd all be on the bench?

Look, we get it. Dublin are a serious team but there's not point in going OTT and coming across as deluded. Remember, Dublin are only one defeat away from being analysed very differently.

This Mayo team hasn't won an All-Ireland but they've been at the top table for the last five years now. They've beaten Cork, Dublin, Donegal, Tyrone in knock out games in that time, having closely contested defeats to Dublin and Donegal in finals and taking Dublin/Kerry to replays in the semis. They deserve respect, saying you'd only take Keegan is as disrespectful as it is daft.

This Dublin side is one of the best teams ever to play the game and thats regardless of the result on Sunday. If they do win that will be the fourth title this decade.

Mayo haven't won anything yet not even a league title. Mayo can beat anyone on their day but struggle consistently. I think they missed their best chance to win Sam in 2012 with this current crop and will have to blood a few more of the winning Minor and 21's in before they reach the holy grail.

ProudDUB · 14-09-2016 12:29AM

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

Well let him prove he's better than O'Connor so.

He is. This year, his conversion rate is in the 90% range. What more can he do? He can hardly go back in time and tack on five years of history, to encompass the time frame, when he wasn't taking the frees for Dublin, but O'Connor was taking them for Mayo.

Bunny Colvin · 14-09-2016 12:41AM

Arse Biscuits wrote: »

This Dublin side is one of the best teams ever to play the game and thats regardless of the result on Sunday. If they do win that will be the fourth title this decade.

Mayo haven't won anything yet not even a league title. Mayo can beat anyone on their day but struggle consistently. I think they missed their best chance to win Sam in 2012 with this current crop and will have to blood a few more of the winning Minor and 21's in before they reach the holy grail.

I agree but failure to produce back to back All-Irelands would be viewed as a big failure regarding their legacy.

ProudDUB wrote: »

He is. This year, his conversion rate is in the 90% range. What more can he do? He can hardly go back in time and tack on five years of history, to encompass the time frame, when he wasn't taking the frees for Dublin, but O'Connor was taking them for Mayo.

One year. One real game against Kerry, two if you want to count Donegal. If you're talking solely free-taking, you'd be taking an unnecessary risk taking Dean Rock over Cillian O'Connor for an All-Ireland final. O'Connor has produced in two and has never had to be taken off frees for a big game.

The Talking Bread · 14-09-2016 12:43AM

ProudDUB wrote: »

He is. This year, his conversion rate is in the 90% range. What more can he do? He can hardly go back in time and tack on five years of history, to encompass the time frame, when he wasn't taking the frees for Dublin, but O'Connor was taking them for Mayo.

whats O Connor's conversion rate? Take into account he has played more games .

ProudDUB · 14-09-2016 12:44AM

Oh yeah, O'Connor really produced in 2013, when he needed 45 minutes to kick one blinkin' free. :rolleyes:

Bunny Colvin · 14-09-2016 12:50AM

ProudDUB wrote: »

Oh yeah, O'Connor really produced in 2013, when he needed 45 minutes to kick one blinkin' free. :rolleyes:

He kept us in that game, no two ways about it.

ProudDUB · 14-09-2016 12:53AM

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

I agree but failure to produce back to back All-Irelands would be viewed as a big failure regarding their legacy.

No, it wouldn't. Winning three All Irelands in five years is still great innings & the mark of a great team. No one has won an All Ireland with the same management team, since the back door was introduced. Dublin aren't going to turn from a great team to useless one, just because they don't win this year. Do we think less of the great Tyrone team of the noughties, because they couldn't do back to back wins? Of course winning it again would further add to their legacy, but if they don't, they will still go down as the greatest Dublin team of all time, after the '70's team and that ain't too shabby a legacy.

One year. One real game against Kerry, two if you want to count Donegal. If you're talking solely free-taking, you'd be taking an unnecessary risk taking Dean Rock over Cillian O'Connor for an All-Ireland final. O'Connor has produced in two and has never had to be taken off frees for a big game.

It is not an unnecessary risk when you consider their current form. O'Connor was woeful with the frees, in the loss to Galway. Rock has been bang on the money, in every game this year. He had a 100% record (2/2) in last years AI final, so what ever reason Jim Gavin had for taking him off, it wasn't because he was missing frees.

,

The Talking Bread · 14-09-2016 01:05AM

"O'Connor was woeful with the frees, in the loss to Galway."

Eh no he wasnt, why hyperbole it?? yes he was woeful with one very bad miss from 35 yards out, whatever way he hit it. But apart from that there is nothing to justify that comment over the whole game. He hit an unbelievable 45 that match from wide on the 45m line.and a couple that werent bankers. Has Rock hit many 45s??

Evan Regan was gitting some that day also,

ProudDUB · 14-09-2016 01:29AM

This is getting silly now. Dean Rock is the championships leading scorer. Cillian O'Connor isn't even in the top 10. But we are supposed to take him over Deano? Come now. :rolleyes:

(Apologies if this screws up yer browsers. I couldn't find a smaller version of it.)

[img][/img]http://www.gaa.ie/mm/Photo/GaaIe/GAANews/13/09/41/130941_HERO.jpg

ProudDUB · 14-09-2016 01:32AM

This is getting silly now. Dean Rock is the championships leading scorer. CO'C isn't even in the top 10, but we are supposed to take him over Deano? Come on now people ! :rolleyes:

(Sorry if this messes up anyones browser. Couldn't find a smaller version.)

martyos121 · 14-09-2016 02:31AM

ProudDUB wrote: »

This is getting silly now. Dean Rock is the championships leading scorer. CO'C isn't even in the top 10, but we are supposed to take him over Deano? Come on now people ! :rolleyes:

(Sorry if this messes up anyones browser. Couldn't find a smaller version.)

That table was last updated on the 2nd of August ProudDUB. Cillian O'Connor is now second behind Dean Rock. He's also scored more from play than Rock. Rock has had the better conversion rate from frees this year but Cillian's been banging them over for five years now, and put on a free scoring clinic in the drawn game against ye last year. That substandard performance against Galway is well behind him now. Yes he's still some margin behind Rock in second place but Evan Regan took plenty of frees off COC this year, and he'll more than likely continue to do so given his ability at knocking them over from the right side of the field.

But none of that suits your agenda, does it? You'd just rather use an outdated table to make a Mayo lad look bad. And then you call others silly. :rolleyes:

I'm not even saying COC is better than Rock at frees, just pointing out that the margin between them is nowhere near as large as you'd have people believe it is and you had to use outdated data to try and prove your point.

Sidenote: your contempt for Cillian O'Connor is hilarious.

SFC Final - Dublin v Mayo - *Read Mod Note in post #1 & #1393*

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SFC Final - Dublin v Mayo - Read Mod Note in post #1 & #1393